Doctors should have right to ask you about your guns

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I know I'm straying, but I can't imagine a cop asking me to allow him to search my vehicle. That's

something I would never do. He needs a warrant, or probable cause.

The similarity to the 4th Amendment and a doctor asking about if you have guns at home, I guess

there's your similarity, but the doctor, within his or her normal practice, only asks about things

related to whats going on in your body, or what's being put in your body that might cause an

illness. They usually don't go, or want to know much else. That's been my experience, so far. I

wouldn't waste my time with a doctor asking me if I own guns.

[dats82]

I guess I am viewing this perhaps from a more utilitarian view. I am not sure that is exactly the correct term, but if you look at the whole interaction.

A patient seeks care from a doctor. The doctor disagrees with patient's practice (whatever it may be). The physician swallows his beliefs to treat the patient. So now, in the whole scenario, there has been a violation of the beliefs or morals or whatever of one person.

Same patient seeks care from the same physician. Doctors says I don't feel comfortable treating you (for whatever reason, no matter how irrational), perhaps you should see Dr. X. Pt goes to other doc, receives the same level of care, and all is good. No one had to violate their beliefs or morals or whatever.

Which scenario is more ethical for all involved?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There may be doctors out there who may act like you say, Dats82, but most will allow appointments

when their practice has an opening. I doubt any have criteria like that, except in the most extreme situation,

something I've never heard of. There will always be a few in any class or profession who will inject their

political beliefs into their practice, and they will most likely pay a price for it.

[DaveTN]

My Doctors aid that asks the questions, ask me if I drank alcohol or was allergic to latex. I was wondering if she was going to ask me out on a date.

[dats82]

There may be doctors out there who may act like you say, Dats82, but most will allow appointments

when their practice has an opening. I doubt any have criteria like that, except in the most extreme situation,

something I've never heard of. There will always be a few in any class or profession who will inject their

political beliefs into their practice, and they will most likely pay a price for it.

I agree. Most docs could give a damn if you have guns. The docs I know would be more inclined to ask about them just to talk shop and maybe go shooting or something. I agree that it is poor practice to interject personal beliefs in a professional setting, but only because you will probably have a poor business impact. If a doc's practice can take that hit and it is his prerogative, then he can rock on with it.

[TMF]

What about shaking doctors? Did they cover that?

Right? It was actually the nurses though, and I didn't put up a stink or anything for many reasons. I get that the rules aren't made at their level, but it still burns me.

[sbroomheadsr]

My ophthalmologist knows because I told her. I said I wanted to go back to contacts and that in the past I had a right lens for distance and a left for close. That meant however that I would sight with my left eye. Fine, until I started shooting rifles. She was very considerate and interested and pointed me to a lens fitter that understood shooting. Felda @ Milams in Nashville is a shooter and worked with me. I now have a multi-focal lens in my right eye that allows me to shoot rifles with my right eye sighting. Pistols are a little easier ti sight using my left but all is good.

If you shoot and wear contacts you need to visit Felda!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jtmaze]

I rarely wear my contacts while shooting.

JTM

Sent from my iPhone

[Oh Shoot]

...Yes, I think it's wrong to refuse someone service based on their beliefs or aspects of their personal lives. If someone is refused service because they have a shirt on that says "Jesus Saves" and the business owner happens to be an athiest I would classify it as wrong and unethical. Should the business owner have the right to do that? Yes, absolutely. Just because you have the "right" doesn't make it "right."..

Though you do understand that no biz serving the general public actually has that particular right, yes?

Just another example of how private biz property is vastly diff than private home property.

[Glenn]

Though you do understand that no biz serving the general public actually has that particular right, yes?

Just another example of how private biz property is vastly diff than private home property.

You beat me to this point. The whole idea of business not serving someone just because they don't want to has been gone for quite a while. Race, ethnicity, sex, handicaps, and certain religious groups are already protected. Now it is just which other groups are added to the list by society or the Gov. Please don't take this to suppose I am in favor of discrimination against any specific group. I just think if you have a business, it should be your decision.

Glenn

[Oh Shoot]

... Race, ethnicity, sex, handicaps, and certain religious groups are already protected....

Plus sexual preference, lack of religion, age over 40, family status, veteran status, even DNA info. Maybe more, can't remember.

Isn't it ironic that all these groups of people have extra special super duper non-discrimination protection, yet one group actually mentioned in the Constitution as not to infringed upon, ie handgun carriers, does not.

- OS

Edited July 7, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest Lester Weevils]

The mandatory "training" was aimed at temper control and how to deal with an inconsolable child. While I agree that hospitals and pediatricians should make an effort to educate, presenting such material in a "mandatory" way is wrong. If I was asked to participate I would gladly do so. However, I'm a big boy and I don't like being told what to do as if I'm a child.

Kinda like the 4th Amendment. I have no problem with agreeing to a police officer searching my vehicle so long as he asks nicely. It doesn't mean that I think the 4th Amendment should go away though. And if the police officer "demands" it, or implys that the search is mandatory, then I will cease to cooperate and make a stink about it. Nobody likes being told what to do or being forced to do anything against their will. Unfortunately, it has become an acceptable part of our society to allow it to happen to the point when someone calls attention to it being wrong they are suddenly the oddball. Madness.

Hi TMF. It is easy to understand not liking being commanded to do something. Supposedly authoritarians actually enjoy being commanded when they are "on the bottom" and then they enjoy ordering people around when they are "on the top". But for instance I am immature enough even in old age that I'll do things clearly against my own interests merely because somebody TOLD me to do the sensible thing. If they had SUGGESTED the sensible thing then I wouldn't have felt compelled to do something different simply to prove that nobody tells me what to do (or at least not all the time). Maybe not everybody is naturally ornery but it is hardly a rare characteristic. For instance I wasn't there and haven't studied the historical particulars, but the Boston Tea Party might have happened regardless whether the Tea Tax made a lick of sense. Even if the Tea Tax made perfect sense and opposition would have been idiotic, that wasn't the point of the Tea Party protest. They didn't like being told what to do?

Having to sign releases, permissions, aknowledgments, not necessarily on the child care education issue but generally-- Perhaps legal self-defense in a litigious society? "I won't sell you this ladder unless you sign this release, promising that you will read and comply with all instructions, and you agree that if you fall off the ladder then it ain't my fault." "I won't loan you money to buy a house unless you sign this piece of paper clearly explaining in detail how you are being cheated and ripped off in at least 27 ways, each disclosed with bullet-pointed, clearly explained paragraphs." "We can't release your baby unless you watch the video and agree not to kill the child. That way if you kill the child it ain't our fault because we can prove you were instructed not to."

The second "covering one's butt with releases" may be a slightly different issue than "telling people what to do". But the lines between the two issues get blurry.

You beat me to this point. The whole idea of business not serving someone just because they don't want to has been gone for quite a while. Race, ethnicity, sex, handicaps, and certain religious groups are already protected. Now it is just which other groups are added to the list by society or the Gov. Please don't take this to suppose I am in favor of discrimination against any specific group. I just think if you have a business, it should be your decision.

Yeah, that gets blurry too. If the pakistani cabbie refuses to take a passenger to a certain crime-ridden trailer park, he might explain, "I'm not refusing the business because you are white. I'm refusing the business because I'm afraid of getting carjacked or randomly shot at."

There is difference between refusing biz because of race, gender, hair color or whatever-- Vs refusing biz on general principles? Its still "generally" legal to refuse biz on "techinical" or "preference" or "strategic" reasons isn't it? If I was doing electronic repair and I tell everybody, regardless of race, creed or sexual preference-- "I won't fix any behringer gear because it is crap." Now maybe I am completely wrong and the stuff is excellent and I could make lots of money fixing behringer gear, but it is still legal for me to refuse the biz, isn't it?"

If a doctor refuses to do procedure X, then isn't he OK in general as long as he refuses to do X for everybody? Except maybe lifesaving procedures or stuff he agreed to do in order to receive a license?

Am not trying to prove any point, merely thinking out loud.

[Glenn]

The whole Dr thing is changing with the health care law. I have a feeling they are going to be told what to do and what not to do.

Glenn

[dunndw]

They can ask...but Im not required to answer truthfully

[Glenn]

They can ask...but Im not required to answer truthfully

Bingo

Glenn

[zapfbroad]

I'd probably wear a gun hat into the doc's office or hospital anyways. If dr asks if I have guns in the house hold.. "doc seeing as how I may one day need you to look at my pocket pistol ima gonna level with ya... you might get called to tell them it's official they can take them out my cold hands now". & I have a nra plate on my vehicle because I don't care & I'm tired of tip toein through the tulips for these people .

:-)

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

Edited July 9, 2012 by zapfbroad

[RobertNashville]

I don't understand why this topic gets so much attention. Maybe I am missing something, but what does it matter if your doc asks about it or not? You can answer or not. It has been my experience that the vast majority of docs either don't really care or actually pro-gun themselves. I just don't really understand what the issue is.

^^^THIS

[Grunt67]

Ruling or not, I don't think it's any of the doctor's business. Certainly I would tell him/her so. I agree with

a previous post, that it's a matter of time before it shows up on an insurance form.

[Jonnin]

I am all about the Dr. having the right to ask whatever he wants. I am all about being able to refuse to answer that or not, depening on why he wants to know. Personally, if I trust the guy enough to let him stick his hand up my butt, listen to my junk, cut holes in my body, and so on, I feel I can trust him to know about my gun too, if he asks (he has not). You trust this guy with your life ---- everything else is secondary. If you do not trust your doctor, you need to find one you can trust before it matters! I still say that in general, they do not need to know about guns, but if mine asks and has a good reason for doing so, I will probably answer with the truth. It could be as little as him needing to know that several pounds of "fat" from the casual (not nude) weigh-in is not really "fat" .....

I am seriously considering asking for a lead level check next time I go, just for my own peace of mind.

Like most other things, the world would be a better place if laws and government would butt out and let doctors and patients work out between each other what information is necessary to be shared.

[TMF]

I am all about the Dr. having the right to ask whatever he wants. I am all about being able to refuse to answer that or not, depening on why he wants to know. Personally, if I trust the guy enough to let him stick his hand up my butt, listen to my junk, cut holes in my body, and so on, I feel I can trust him to know about my gun too, if he asks (he has not). You trust this guy with your life ---- everything else is secondary. If you do not trust your doctor, you need to find one you can trust before it matters! I still say that in general, they do not need to know about guns, but if mine asks and has a good reason for doing so, I will probably answer with the truth. It could be as little as him needing to know that several pounds of "fat" from the casual (not nude) weigh-in is not really "fat" .....

I am seriously considering asking for a lead level check next time I go, just for my own peace of mind.

Like most other things, the world would be a better place if laws and government would butt out and let doctors and patients work out between each other what information is necessary to be shared.

The original story was regarding a Ped doctor asking the parent of the child patient. Parent refused and was dropped as a patient. We live in an age where parents must live in a constant state of fear regarding having their kids taken away, or being put under the microscope for no good reason. I don't think it's a stretch for an activist Ped to call CPS because they feel you shouldn't have guns with a child in the house. Think it's a stretch? How about the cases where parents were investigated because their kids simply drew pictures of shooting guns? Sounds silly to me too, but this is the world we live in and it won't get better.

I'm not saying that I would have a problem answering, but that isn't the point. Practices like these should be outed for activist behavior. It has no place in a patient/doctor relationship.

Let's change the venue:

Cashier: "Thanks for shopping at Kroger. Do you own guns?"

You: "I don't want to answer that."

Cashier: "Well that is your right. It is also our right to refuse service. We don't believe in the 2nd Amendment and don't wish to serve people that do. Bye bye now."

Sounds silly? I don't see the difference. Activist behavior such as this should be exposed for what it is and properly shamed. The fact that medical professionals would engage in such behavior is just sickening.

[Jonnin]

The difference is that there is no connection between kroger, groceries, and guns (unless they sell ammo there?).

Guns however can be of importance to your doctor, under some circumstances. Let me name a few:

1) you have kids. The doctor asks, and when you say yes, he directs you to the NRA website pages that have information on how to protect your kids from guns at various ages, including the kiddie rules (do not touch, tell an adult, etc) of gun safety, or the toddler/infant rules (keep it away from them, duh!). As a gun nut, I think this is dumb, but then I remember that there are umpteen million novice gun owners that have 1 pistol that they never shoot stuck in a drawer somewhere....

2) You have alzheimers. You could do something very, very stupid with a gun, car, knife, or even a can of hairspray. A gun is one of many, many concerns for a person with dementia. Same goes for other mental illnesses.

3) He is about to prescribe you a pill that has some funky side effects. Along with not driving, perhaps you need to be asked to disarm yourself for a week or 2 while you are under these effects.

4) lead exposure.

..... and so on. A lot of the above is subjective, sure, but they are valid concerns to the health and well being of you and your family.

Yes, in the cited case, that particular instance stinks. I do not agree with what was done. But I also do not agree with the case (was it in flordia??) where the government said doctors COULD NOT ask. There are times when the doctor does not need to know (most of the time, really). There are times when it could matter (same as most of the time, they do not need to know about your sex life, but from time to time, that overlaps with health issues!).

Edited July 9, 2012 by Jonnin

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yeah it is "need to know" judgment call, but also expertise. Ferinstance my internist is a fine fellow and does his job well, but the only thing he knows about vitamins is that they are a waste of money and if I want to throw away money why not give it to him? (not really, but its not far off base)

So anyway if I'm gonna take a vitamin I spend an inordinate amount of time studying up on it to see if it might have any benefit. If there is actual research showing possible benefit I'll try one, and I don't expect anything to work so the placebo effect doesn't work on me much. Anyway, usually they don't make any noticeable improvement but once in awile I get surprised.

Now if I was going into surgery I'd quit taking that stuff at least a week in advance, and tell the anesthesiologist every little thing, hoping the the anesthesiologist would actually know something about how they interact with his job. But I quit telling the internist the list of vitamins because all it is good for is getting a dumass lecture on how I'm wasting my money. If he actually knew something about them (as some doctors do) and could offer constructive advice, I wouldn't mind telling him. But he's a good enough guy and ain't gonna go looking to change over to some vitamin-nut doctor I don't know from adam's cat either.

So maybe it would be different if the pediatrician knows enough to give you useful advice on your guns!

[TMF]

The difference is that there is no connection between kroger, groceries, and guns (unless they sell ammo there?).

Guns however can be of importance to your doctor, under some circumstances. Let me name a few:

1) you have kids. The doctor asks, and when you say yes, he directs you to the NRA website pages that have information on how to protect your kids from guns at various ages, including the kiddie rules (do not touch, tell an adult, etc) of gun safety, or the toddler/infant rules (keep it away from them, duh!). As a gun nut, I think this is dumb, but then I remember that there are umpteen million novice gun owners that have 1 pistol that they never shoot stuck in a drawer somewhere....

2) You have alzheimers. You could do something very, very stupid with a gun, car, knife, or even a can of hairspray. A gun is one of many, many concerns for a person with dementia. Same goes for other mental illnesses.

3) He is about to prescribe you a pill that has some funky side effects. Along with not driving, perhaps you need to be asked to disarm yourself for a week or 2 while you are under these effects.

4) lead exposure.

..... and so on. A lot of the above is subjective, sure, but they are valid concerns to the health and well being of you and your family.

Reason 2, 3, and 4 are all great examples. They are great examples because they are medically relevant to treatment. There is a difference between that and activism, which is what the doctor in the cited case is doing.

Should there be a law? No. However, I hold doctors in a regard similar to that of many respected professions that hold a trusted place within our community such as teachers, police officers, religious leaders, elected officials, judges and so forth. While allowing their personal prejudices to influence their work may not always be against the law, it certainly violates a trust expected of the position they hold. When that happens the professional community they belong to should shun such behavior. Right and wrong is a matter of opinion. I believe it is wrong.

On another note, I believe you can go to any of those strip mall labs and have your lead levels done for a fair price. I have a relative that worked for a while on an indoor range and had to do that regularly.

Edited July 9, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Jonnin]

yea I even conceded that #1 is dumb for any responsible gun owner. The Dr. that has to warn about guns & kids would have to warn about 10000000000000000000000000000 other dangerous objects as well .... kids can make a spoon into a trip to the emergency room with only a little creativity. I know... I was one of those types of kids.

[RobertNashville]

yea I even conceded that #1 is dumb for any responsible gun owner. The Dr. that has to warn about guns & kids would have to warn about 10000000000000000000000000000 other dangerous objects as well .... kids can make a spoon into a trip to the emergency room with only a little creativity. I know... I was one of those types of kids.

Amen to that...I once put the foil wrapper from a stick of gum into a light socket...I didn't have got to the emergency room/wasn't hurt but it probably could have turned into an ER trip!