Legal Posting..

[DaveS]

Folks, I want to ask this question, and it is NOT intended to be an arguement. Since we all constantly hear about Proper and Improper Posting of businesses...what is your opinion of "Proper or Improper" posting?

Rules.....

1. Please DO NOT refer to the law...as it says Lettering and/or gunbuster (I've read it 5,311 times est.)

2. DO NOT make a personal attack against me or my TGO friends...

3. DO NOT tell us you will not go in a posted business...This is merely a discussion on "Proper/Improper" postings.

I am now asking the Mods to lock this thread down if it starts getting stupid. I want to have a decent adult conversation here, and if you can't do so...well......

Dave

(931)802-2138 (sometimes)

[dlm37015]

i think one should not carry if the signage is wrong its the owners right to do so .if you feel so strongly about it then tell them of their error

[DaveS]

i think one should not carry if the signage is wrong its the owners right to do so .if you feel so strongly about it then tell them of their error

I'm trying to decifer what is "right" and what is "wrong".

If you and I went out to lunch, what sign would YOU expect to see on a "properly posted" business? I guess is how I need to ask it?

[Oh Shoot]

..what is your opinion of "Proper or Improper" posting?

Rules.....

1. Please DO NOT refer to the law...as it says Lettering and/or gunbuster (I've read it 5,311 times est.)

Sorry, have to mention the law, as I consider "proper" synonymous with "statutorily compliant".

Management feels strongly enough about the issue to have me charged with Class B misdemeanor, seems to me the least management could do is also obey the law. The short example sentence in the statute and/or a gunbuster sign is too complicated?

- OS

[Dennis1209]

I see what you're asking now.

Whether their gun buster sign meets the letter of the law or not is a moot point with me, as long as it is posted to notice prior to entering the establishment. I don't want to break the law knowingly or not.

With that said, I'll contradict myself. I would prefer it be highly visible and distinguished from all the other signs and advertisements you see pasted everywhere at the entrances to stores.

At some stores, I have to stand in front of the entrance a minute or two to look at all the international symbols, do's and don't and advertisements. Then walk in and do the same with the double door.

Unless you're vigilant, it can easily be missed.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Dennis1209

[Guest bkelm18]

The law spells out pretty clearly what is proper signage.

[DaveS]

The law spells out pretty clearly what is proper signage.

What's YOUR opinion? That's what I'm asking. I've read the law...what does "bkelm18" say? What would be a proper sign to YOU...come on ya'll....I need opinions here!

[Oh Shoot]

......come on ya'll....I need opinions here!

Well, I gave ya mine. As long as the statute is in effect -- but my further opinion is that 39-17-1359 should be struck down in its entirety.

One should not acquire a misdemeanor record and $500 fine for any behavior which is legal on one side of a public business' door but immediately illegal on the other, just as it is not a criminal act for violating a "no shirt, no shoes" or "no pets" sign.

The trespassing option after verbal notice is ample, and apparently works fine, and constitutionally so, in the other 45 or so states which have no criminal penalty for merely carrying past a no-guns sign.

- OS

Edited July 5, 2012 by OhShoot

[BrasilNuts]

We here at XYZPDQ are spinless ninnys and though we appretiate your business we would ask that you do not carry firearms in our establishment.

We are sorry if this is an inconvenience for you, but we feel that our right to deny you of your rights is more important than your right to protect yourself.

Again we apologize for being gutless hoplophobes.

Edited July 5, 2012 by BrasilNuts

[wcsc12]

Folks, I want to ask this question, and it is NOT intended to be an arguement. Since we all constantly hear about Proper and Improper Posting of businesses...what is your opinion of "Proper or Improper" posting?

Rules.....

1. Please DO NOT refer to the law...as it says Lettering and/or gunbuster (I've read it 5,311 times est.)

2. DO NOT make a personal attack against me or my TGO friends...

3. DO NOT tell us you will not go in a posted business...This is merely a discussion on "Proper/Improper" postings.

I am now asking the Mods to lock this thread down if it starts getting stupid. I want to have a decent adult conversation here, and if you can't do so...well......

Dave

(931)802-2138 (sometimes)

I think it's crap to to just put up rules and not actually post properly. It's like they are saying "don't carry but please...do carry" and then penalizing you if someone sees that you're printing. I say if you're going to post, post the right way and be done with it. I am more than happy to never shop there again.

Sorry, have to mention the law, as I consider "proper" synonymous with "statutorily compliant".

Management feels strongly enough about the issue to have me charged with Class B misdemeanor, seems to me the least management could do is also obey the law. The short example sentence in the statute and/or a gunbuster sign is too complicated?

- OS

Very good point. I hate improper postings. *cough cough* Simon Malls *cough cough*, It's like they don't want your business but they do......

Edited July 5, 2012 by wcsc12

[TMF]

Eh, I interpret improper postings to be either ignorance of the law or a way to appeal to the sheep while allowing HCP holders to carry concealed. I've seen a bunch of improper postings, but I've also seen postings with verbage indicating "no unlawful carrying of weapons" which I interpret to mean that only lawful carry is authorized. It would be nice if those businesses that are improperly posted had signs that read in such a manner, however, they probably don't put as much thought into it as you and I or see it as a big deal.

[DaveTN]

A proper posting to me is one I understand the intent of.

[Worriedman]

In this instance I agree with Dave TN, whatever their level of compliance, if there is an attempt to post, I will honor that. Relying on a technicality to allow me to keep my HCP and my money seems foolish at best. Having dealt first hand with LE and Prosecutors this year far more than I ever envisioned I might regarding the issue of what the TCA says, I would not willingly enter into any situation where perception of what laws are intended to say, expecting rational thought to be the parameter which rules the discussion.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Worriedman

[sschrick]

To me, the Gunbuster sign is easy to interpret. I would prefer any places wanting to restrict carry just post the damn pictures. No words required. Kinda the same thing as the No Smoking Sign or No Dogs Allowed.

Everytime I see nothing but words, I question whether or not carry is allowed. . .just like down at the Loudon Co. Clerk office the other day (renewing my car tags). . .big red sign on the door with a bunch of verbage referencing 39-17-1359 but I was still not sure if it was up to date and accurate.

Had to go in, so just to be safe, left my baby in the car.

If the gov't is going to continue to change the rules, I think they should enforce the business to update the signage accordingly.

[Guest nysos]

To me, if it is not properly posted per the law - I am probably going to carry in there. I have to follow TN's laws and guidelines, not the preferred rules of the store. The worse that can happen if I walk past improperly posted sign is the store being angry with me. I much rather have half the stores in the city angry with me, than have ANYTHING on my record. That is why I follow the letter of the law on signage, because if police get involved for whatever reason I will not be in the wrong.

If it is a store I was on the fence about shopping at originally, even an improperly posted sign will probably cause me to turn the other way though, it is just the "nail in the coffin" mindset. Simon malls (specifically west town), I have carried at every single time. There is not a proper posting easily visible at every entrance, so it is not a legal posting. If they ask me to leave, then I'll leave. To be honest the ONLY signage I have seen about weapons at west town is at the parking garage entrance, up on a concrete beam BEHIND YOU as you walk in. I only noticed it as I was leaving one day.

As a whole, I wish we had the stance of other states where we could walk past any signage because we have a right to defend ourselves anywhere. Until then as long as they are legally posted I won't give the business any of my money. If they are improperly posted I might give them some money, just depends on how badly I need/want something from then.

[UncleJak]

I need a sign that has a BIG picture of a gun in a circle with a slash through it. It needs to be posted between my waist level and eye level and right on the door that I am walking in. If I have to search for it, it isn't good enough. I think that bright orange or yellow would be a good color for my sign, but I would also accept any other neon/highlighter color. My sign would be so well seen that there would be no mistaking the feelings of the business regarding handgun carry.

[DaveS]

I need a sign that has a BIG picture of a gun in a circle with a slash through it. It needs to be posted between my waist level and eye level and right on the door that I am walking in. If I have to search for it, it isn't good enough. I think that bright orange or yellow would be a good color for my sign, but I would also accept any other neon/highlighter color. My sign would be so well seen that there would be no mistaking the feelings of the business regarding handgun carry.

Thank you....now we're getting somewhere. I, Myself sometimes expect to see the words "No Weapons allowed" IAW TCA 39-17-1359 and with the gunbuster symbol. Personally, I rarely ever stop to read all the bitty notes and signs stuck all over doors and windows.

[dlm37015]

A proper posting to me is one I understand the intent of.

me too it might not be just right but i can tell what it means

[DaveTN]

Thank you....now we're getting somewhere. I, Myself sometimes expect to see the words "No Weapons allowed" IAW TCA 39-17-1359 and with the gunbuster symbol. Personally, I rarely ever stop to read all the bitty notes and signs stuck all over doors and windows.

Foul.

You are violating rule #1. If we aren’t allowed to refer to the law; neither are you. Sorry, I didn’t make the rules. But it’s why you aren’t getting a lot of discussion.

[Guest Nikator]

What's YOUR opinion? That's what I'm asking. I've read the law...what does "bkelm18" say? What would be a proper sign to YOU...come on ya'll....I need opinions here!

Any sign, legal or not is proper in my opinion. If they make an effort to post a sign asking me not to carry in their property I'll honor it.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If I had my way this is how all businesses must be posted.

First, a gunbuster sign that is at least 12" in diameter.

Second, posted on the outside of the main entrance door of the establishment, not inside or on a side window

Third, it must be at least 48" above the ground but no more than 72"

That is how I would have it in a perfect world. That way it would be impossible to miss and allow me to see it without even getting out of my car.

If the business isn't posted in this manner then then a person entering with a firearm cannot be charged criminally for carrying past the sign. And even if it is not "legally" posted a person MUST comply with the owner's wishes when asked to leave.

With that being said I also believe that a property owner that prevents someone from carrying a firearm should be held liable for injuries if those injuries could have been prevented by someone who was armed.

************************************************************************

In reality the sign, and whether it is legal or not, has no bearing on whether you can carry there or not against the owner's wishes. An individual's rights are trumped by the rights of the owner of the property. The can preclude you from doing anything, including the carry of a firearm on their property, if they want to. Additionally, the private property owner can ask a person to leave for ANY reason and they do not have to give a reason.

Although a business or private property owner cannot prevent you from defending yourself they can legally dictate how you are allowed to defend yourself. A business or private property owner can dictate that you carry a Nerf gun in order to be on his property and you MUST comply to remain on his property.

An individual or private party has ZERO rights afforded by the Constitution on private property. You have no right to free speech, not right to carry firearms, no right from unreasonable search or any of the other ammendements while on private property.

Dolomite

[DaveTN]

With that being said I also believe that a property owner that prevents someone from carrying a firearm should be held liable for injuries if those injuries could have been prevented by someone who was armed.

Two things would have to happen first for that to be an option. First, the state of Tennessee would have to recognize the right of all citizens to carry a gun. That could happen in the future.

Second, if businesses were forced to allow carry; they would have to have absolute immunity from lawsuits. They are the deep pockets and the lawyers are not going to allow that to happen.

[Oh Shoot]

...

In reality the sign, and whether it is legal or not, has no bearing on whether you can carry there or not against the owner's wishes. An individual's rights are trumped by the rights of the owner of the property. The can preclude you from doing anything, including the carry of a firearm on their property, if they want to. Additionally, the private property owner can ask a person to leave for ANY reason and they do not have to give a reason.

Let's please please please don't get into this specious argument again. It's just not true.

There is most certainly a big difference in how city, county, state, and federal laws affect businesses open to the public compared to true private real property.

You just can't equate the two types of "private property", not by a long shot.

- OS

[DaveS]

Foul.

You are violating rule #1. If we aren’t allowed to refer to the law; neither are you. Sorry, I didn’t make the rules. But it’s why you aren’t getting a lot of discussion.

OK...let's refer to the law, if it will increase participation in the disscussiion. But I AM NOT asking what the LAW says.....I am asking how YOU interpet that law, and what YOUR OPINION of a PROPER POSTING is. I think we know what the law says.

Actually "OhShoot" broke the rules, but I was merely stating my opinion on what I thought would be a proper sign. That's all.

Please don't say "the law says what proper signage is". Put the law in your own words for everyone!

Another words...Design a sign!

Dave

[DaveS]

If I had my way this is how all businesses must be posted.

First, a gunbuster sign that is at least 12" in diameter.

Second, posted on the outside of the main entrance door of the establishment, not inside or on a side window

Third, it must be at least 48" above the ground but no more than 72"

That is how I would have it in a perfect world. That way it would be impossible to miss and allow me to see it without even getting out of my car.

If the business isn't posted in this manner then then a person entering with a firearm cannot be charged criminally for carrying past the sign. And even if it is not "legally" posted a person MUST comply with the owner's wishes when asked to leave.

With that being said I also believe that a property owner that prevents someone from carrying a firearm should be held liable for injuries if those injuries could have been prevented by someone who was armed.

************************************************************************

In reality the sign, and whether it is legal or not, has no bearing on whether you can carry there or not against the owner's wishes. An individual's rights are trumped by the rights of the owner of the property. The can preclude you from doing anything, including the carry of a firearm on their property, if they want to. Additionally, the private property owner can ask a person to leave for ANY reason and they do not have to give a reason.

Although a business or private property owner cannot prevent you from defending yourself they can legally dictate how you are allowed to defend yourself. A business or private property owner can dictate that you carry a Nerf gun in order to be on his property and you MUST comply to remain on his property.

An individual or private party has ZERO rights afforded by the Constitution on private property. You have no right to free speech, not right to carry firearms, no right from unreasonable search or any of the other ammendements while on private property.

Dolomite

I like your idea of a Proper Sign. Easy to see from the road...no questions of the intent. Maybe we should push our lawmakers into requiring a minimum size...something that would protect all of us!