Four Tennessee men face charges in gun sales

[BLACKVANDRIVER]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/jun/29/4-four-face-charges-in-gun-sales/

[Patton]

They are the first of many more to come. That Kevin Dawson guy was even told by an undercover he needed to aquire a FFL for his frequent transactions. He blantantly was selling guns for profit and not those from his "personal collection".

[Glock30]

Wow. And check out the list of firearms up for forfeiture. 16 Colt Pythons from one guy.

[Magiccarpetrides]

http://www.wate.com/story/18915095/4-charged-with-illegally-trafficking-guns-in-tennessee

[Guest Lester Weevils]

http://media.timesfr.../06/28/Guns.pdf In the pdf of charges, in several items under "Manner and means of the conspiracy" are mentioned a laundry list of thangs which are not firearms--

It was part of the conspiracy that the defendents purchased or traded for firearms, ammunition and other items associated with firearms, such as holsters, gun stocks and firearm parts, in order to obtain these items without a record of the transaction.

That phrase-- ammunition and other items associated with firearms, such as holsters, gun stocks and firearm parts. It is repeated in several of the bullet points.

What legal purpose-- Why are the accessories listed? Income tax or sales tax evasion rather than infraction of gun law? Some of the gun show dealers it looks like maybe they buy a bunch of tax-stamped ammo from walmart then sell it marked-up at gun shows, especially in times of shortage. Or maybe some ordinary guy with a few boxes of tax-stamped ammo decided he needed the money more than the ammo and sold it to a small time gun show dealer? I don't plan to do such business, but assuming a small-time dealer sells such ammo and pays income tax on the profit, and pays sales tax when appropriate, is there something else illegal about it that ATFE could nail a guy for? If the ammo has a tax stamp, then its already legit as far as ATFE is concerned? Or does it have to be double-taxed or triple-taxed, taxed on each change of hands, to be legal?

More puzzling, except maybe tax angles, are holsters, gun stocks, firearms parts? Is there a way a fella who pays his taxes, would get in hot water with ATFE for selling gun sights, mags, picatinny adapters, holsters? Even barrels or whatever? I thought the restricted firearm was the receiver and anything that happens to be attached to the receiver?

Just curious. There are so many laws, impossible for the average guy to know how many laws he might breaking just by walking down the street in the improper fashion?

I don't know any of those guys from adam's cat. But another curiosity-- If the authorities were watching a guy like that, and they watched you buy a nice collectible firearm from the dealer-- What and how much trouble can you get in just doing as far as you know is an honest straightforward purchase? If they know about the transaction could they come looking to seize the gun you paid for?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Smith]

I have a feeling there are some frequent posters in the FS threads that may end up with these guys down the road. Remember, it is up to the ATF to interpret and perceive what constitutes violations. Be careful guys. It's like the IRS. You don't want to be on their radar.

[Guest mikedwood]

ATFE for selling gun sights, mags, picatinny adapters, holsters? Even barrels or whatever? I thought the restricted firearm was the receiver and anything that happens to be attached to the receiver?

Making no judgement, but this is what I gather from the charges as to why they listed, "holsters, gun parts and ammunition"

It looks to me like part of charges were that the guys were trading "holsters, gun parts and ammunition" for guns in lieu of cash, using the "holsters, gun parts and ammunition" as part of a conspiracy to hide the transactions leaving no paper trail. Not that the stuff was illegal per se but the LE theory of how they were using it said firearm related stuff.

Skittles would have had the same effect, just happened to be firearm related merchandise, I think.

Edited June 29, 2012 by mikedwood

[DaveTN]

I have a feeling there are some frequent posters in the FS threads that may end up with these guys down the road. Remember, it is up to the ATF to interpret and perceive what constitutes violations. Be careful guys. It's like the IRS. You don't want to be on their radar.

It’s like drug dealers, when people start knowing who you are; it’s just a matter of time. And making the “undercover buys†is like shooting ducks in a barrel.

[runco]

Do you suppose ATF would have pursued these guys anyway if an officer had not been killed by one of the firearms that funneled through these crooks! I am a law abiding citizen regardless if I disapprove or approve of the law, but these guys really hurt our hobby and federal right to own guns.

[TripleDigitRide]

So, if I understand this correctly, these guys were purchasing guns from retail stores in Lebanon and Athens, then turning around and selling them at gun shows? I guess that explains the ridiculous prices I often see at local gun shows.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch using Tapatalk 2

[Patton]

The death of the officer is probably what raised the eyebrows enough to see the volume that one guy was moving. Dawson admitted to undercovers that he was making 600 wk peddling guns. This news has made its way into the state house so don't be surprised if we don't suffer tremendously for Dawson's actions.

They were buying anywhere they could get a deal and selling to whomever they could make a dime off of.

[TMF]

It’s like drug dealers, when people start knowing who you are; it’s just a matter of time. And making the “undercover buys†is like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Well I would figure that any site that has firearms classifieds is on the ATF "radar", so to speak. But I think it's a matter of whether or not someone is generating income. I see lots of people trade, buy and then sell, but without profit. If there is no profit being made I don't see the ATF caring. I would think this site is difficult to turn a profit on since folks here seem to know the value of stuff, and the overpriced items that smell of profit turning normally don't sell.

[VERO1]

Win or lose, those guys are in for a long, miserable, expensive future!

[Oh Shoot]

.... If there is no profit being made I don't see the ATF caring. ....

Point is, though, that ATF doesn't have to prove you made a profit, only show by preponderance of evidence that you intended to. On even one gun. The ATF is shown to care about conviction rate, so they prosecute the ones they think they'll win.

Somebody turning 10 guns a month or more mostly year round would seem to be right in the radar range if they want to make the effort, would seem to me. Maybe even five.

- OS

Edited July 1, 2012 by OhShoot

[runco]

This is unrelated, but I worry about a elderly person in my family who is an old knife trader kinda guy. Only deals with old 22 rifles and single shot shotguns etc (no black guns, semis or pistols). He trades often or so it seems, buying, trading and selling in the local fleas and yard sales. I have got on to him many times about this practice, or my perseption. I guess its the thrill of the deal and it gives him something to do on the weekends. I told him about this Chattanooga thing, kinda fluffed it up about it was flea selling only trying to shock some reality into him. Told him it just wasn't the ATF but the IRS as well. I actually believe he might stop cold turkey.

[TMF]

Point is, though, that ATF doesn't have to prove you made a profit, only show by preponderance of evidence that you intended to. On even one gun. The ATF is shown to care about conviction rate, so they prosecute the ones they think they'll win.

Somebody turning 10 guns a month or more mostly year round would seem to be right in the radar range if they want to make the effort, would seem to me. Maybe even five.

- OS

Well, even coming here and selling 5 guns per month adds up to 70 guns per year. It's hard for anyone to classify that as a recreational hobby. If I worked for the ATF I would say selling 70 guns per year is a business when you consider the value of the merchandise. If you figure that an average sale price of a firearm on TGO is somewhere in the range of $400, that means an individual would be moving around $30,000 in merchandise in a calendar year. Sounds like a side business to me and an FFL would be required. Hell, even if that was someone's hobby (buying, selling, trading for no profit) and they took it to that extreme, it sounds like it would be relatively cheap to apply and go through the process of an FFL if you have upwards of 30 grand tied up in merchandise. Even Leonard's poor a$$ has one. I dunno, just a thought.

[DaveTN]

it sounds like it would be relatively cheap to apply and go through the process of an FFL if you have upwards of 30 grand tied up in merchandise. Even Leonard's poor a$$ has one. I dunno, just a thought.

If all that was involved was paying money (They only cost $200) I would have one, but many of us are banned from having one by zoning codes and ordnances.

[TMF]

If all that was involved was paying money (They only cost $200) I would have one, but many of us are banned from having one by zoning codes and ordnances.

Like city/county? You'll have to forgive me, I'm ignorant of the process since I have never had the desire of applying. I haven't sold a firearm in over 10 years; I'm irrationally attached to each one that I can't bring myself to sell one even to get something new. A couple of former collegues of mine obtained FFLs so I just assumed the process was pretty simple.

Edited July 1, 2012 by TMF 18B

[DaveTN]

Like city/county?

City in my case.

[gregintenn]

I enjoy trading guns. I don't see the point in trading if you lose money, or break even. I certainly don't do enough volume to make an FFL a worthwhile proposition. If I make any money, it goes right back into collecting and shooting guns. I thought that was how a hobby worked. Sort of like racing cars or tornament fishing. If you win some money racing, does that make it a business instead of a hobby?

I'm guessing selling to a known felon is what got these guys in trouble to begin with. If so, I've got no problem with it. I sure would like to see the laws defined more clearly as to what constitutes a business versus a hobby, however.

How would buying guns as an investment differ from muscle cars, mutual funds, gold, etc? You don't, to my knowledge, need to have any business license to do any of the latter.

If you look at the list of guns involved in this case, these aren't what are confiscated from drug dealers and gang bangers. These are mostly collector guns.

Edited July 1, 2012 by gregintenn

[DaveTN]

How would buying guns as an investment differ from muscle cars, mutual funds, gold, etc? You don't, to my knowledge, need to have any business license to do any of the latter.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but in Tennessee its 5 cars a year before you have to have a dealer’s license. I think you have to go through a licensed person to sell Mutual Funds, but I could be wrong about that also. No license for Gold since 1975.

I don’t think ATF is getting anyone for buying guns as an investment; they are getting them for selling without a dealer’s license and knowingly selling to convicted felons.

I’m all for the Feds putting a number on it and ending the controversy, but it’s the gun owners that don’t want that to happen.

When you are selling multiple guns a month and you are doing it month after month, you are making yourself a target.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

A solution previously mentioned works for me-- Never sell anything. Entirely lacking the horsetrader gene, its not enough fun for recreational purposes. Not a good solution for folks who enjoy horsetrading or those who might buy on impulse then have to sell items that turn out "not what they really wanted."

Edited July 1, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[~48_South~]

I’m all for the Feds putting a number on it and ending the controversy, but it’s the gun owners that don’t want that to happen

Having a set number written in the law is the only way its even remotely fair,how is one suppose to know if they are breaking a law when there is nothing set in stone on how you actually go about violating it, to me its about the same as if there were no official speed limits and cops just made them up as they went day by day.

[LI0NSFAN]

does anyone have a link to the article that had the pics of these guys. I think I know who they are, if I am right I always found there dealings at the shows a little odd. I backed out of a deal with them because I got a bad feeling.

[Moped]

I don’t think ATF is getting anyone for buying guns as an investment; they are getting them for selling without a dealer’s license and knowingly selling to convicted felons... When you are selling multiple guns a month and you are doing it month after month, you are making yourself a target.

I got to agree with these two statements. Moving a lot of firearms in a month or a year, is going to get you noticed, by someone, whether it's on the internet, showing up at every gun show with something to sale, posting several ads in papers or buying and selling at a flea market. We all know these people, because we see them all the time, including on this site. And it doesn't take long to figure out who is moving a lot of firearms here.