Let's talk about Meth.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I may be recalling incorrectly, but there are many "slight variations" on the amphetamine molecule and then those slight variations can be hung onto sulfates or hydrochlorides or citrates or whatever. Many organic molecules "essential to life" come in left-hand and right-hand mirror images. Sometimes in many more isomers than just a left- and right-hand form. It is common among many enzymes, proteins, drugs that the left-hand version will have X effects (or no effect at all), wheras the right-hand version with have Y effects (or no effect at all). Or vice-versa.

I don't recollect that meth has a left and right-hand isomer but perhaps I'm recalling incorrectly. Dextro-amphetamine is a right-handed variant which has much stronger psychoactive effect than Levo-amphetamine which has stronger effect on the body, raising blood pressure and heart rate, sweating, etc. The old old black capsule Rx pills biphetamine were time-release caps with a mix of D- and L-amphetamine. There were many forms of D-amphetamine Rx pills. And there was the Desoxyn as OS mentions methamphetamine hcl. The adderall of today is also a mixed-isomer amphetamine but dunno if it is directly equivalent to the old biphetamine. Desoxyn is still theoretically used in USA for certain medical conditions but dunno if it really is being used.

People who take em "the right way" for certain medical conditions apparently don't have tolerance and dose-increase over time, but the legit uses do not involve an "intoxicating" dose. People who take the stuff at an "intoxicating" dose develop tolerance rapidly and quickly end up taking large doses and feeling "hardly any" effect. It is a nasty set of chemicals when abused, made even worse by all the poisons in the trailer park stuff. From what I read anyway. I only barely passed organic chem a zillion years ago and only can parrot some details because at one time it was relevant to the job.

[Guest bkelm18]

I may be recalling incorrectly, but there are many "slight variations" on the amphetamine molecule and then those slight variations can be hung onto sulfates or hydrochlorides or citrates or whatever. Many organic molecules "essential to life" come in left-hand and right-hand mirror images. Sometimes in many more isomers than just a left- and right-hand form. It is common among many enzymes, proteins, drugs that the left-hand version will have X effects (or no effect at all), wheras the right-hand version with have Y effects (or no effect at all). Or vice-versa.

I don't recollect that meth has a left and right-hand isomer but perhaps I'm recalling incorrectly. Dextro-amphetamine is a right-handed variant which has much stronger psychoactive effect than Levo-amphetamine which has stronger effect on the body, raising blood pressure and heart rate, sweating, etc. The old old black capsule Rx pills biphetamine were time-release caps with a mix of D- and L-amphetamine. There were many forms of D-amphetamine Rx pills. And there was the Desoxyn as OS mentions methamphetamine hcl. The adderall of today is also a mixed-isomer amphetamine but dunno if it is directly equivalent to the old biphetamine. Desoxyn is still theoretically used in USA for certain medical conditions but dunno if it really is being used.

People who take em "the right way" for certain medical conditions apparently don't have tolerance and dose-increase over time, but the legit uses do not involve an "intoxicating" dose. People who take the stuff at an "intoxicating" dose develop tolerance rapidly and quickly end up taking large doses and feeling "hardly any" effect. It is a nasty set of chemicals when abused, made even worse by all the poisons in the trailer park stuff. From what I read anyway. I only barely passed organic chem a zillion years ago and only can parrot some details because at one time it was relevant to the job.

Yes, amphetamines have a chiral carbon and one of the reasons why Sudafed is so popular is (among other reasons) because it contains the correct isomer for meth. It can be made other ways but the processes are a bit more involved and perhaps beyond the average "cook".

Edited June 30, 2012 by bkelm18

[Dolomite_supafly]

Something else about meth users. When they are arrested they almost immediately get approached by other meth users incarcerated. The incarcerated inmates are willing to do anything or give up anything to drink the urine of the new arrestees. There is enough meth left in the urine of a current user to get a person high.

You know something is addictive when you are willing to drink the urine from a complete stranger and pay for it.

My brother is a long time user. He, at one point, bragged about all the drugs he took. At one point he was drinking, using marijuana, meth, oxy, crack and said if he could get it heroin. In the end he got so far in debt to all the dealers in our area that he sold EVERYTHING he owned. And when that was goin he basically took anything of value that could be pawned from our parents and sold that. Then he would tell them what pawn shop the items were in so they could get there stuff back only to have him repeat the process. And once my parents got wise to that my brother was able to apply and get approved for several loans online with my parents information. My parents are probably still paying on those. My mother told me there were $50K in debt because of my brother.

This is not the worst part. During this whole process my brother has made threats to hurt them as well as himself. My mother, being the mother she is, felt bad so she would give in and continued to give him money. And this was despite the fact my brother would assault her in some of the most heinous ways imagineable. I never knew about a lot of this and my brother would call my wife and I wanting money to take "krystal" out on a date. We are talking about a LOT of moeny. We later realized it was his joke because the money was for meth or crystal as he normally called it. And on top of that my mother would borrow money that we later found out were for my brother as well. We are talking hundreds of dollars they would "borrow" with no intentions of paying any of it back.

This went on for years then in June of 2009 I told my mother and my brother I would not give them cash ever again. I went on to say that I would buy them whatever they needed like cigarettes, gas or food. Then they didn't call or speak to me months because of it and my brother told anyone who would listen that he was going to kill me because I would not let him "borrow" money any more. Then in late September my father called me and said my brother had a shotgun and would not let him leave. I contacted LE and they said there was no probable cause for them to check on my father. And then when my father found out I had contacted LE he told them I was telling him classified government secrets. And my father knew that is one way to get at me because of what and who I worked for allowed me access to secret information. I was investigated and questioned regarding that and probably came close to being arrested because of what he told them. And the next time I spoke to my father he went on to say he would kill my family and I if I ever called the cops again on my brother or had them come to his house.

Step forward about two weeks frm the incident where my father called me. I get a call from the local sheriff's office. They said my brother was on a rampage and ahd assaulted our mother. They said close all curtains and get to the center of the house. I immediately did that then called back with one question, was he armed. The officer said he had an AK and they were on the phone with my brother. He officer said he was saying he was going to kill my family and I. And luckily before he made it to our house the officers responded and my brother ran into the woods. That is when the standoff began. My brother was telling the officers he was going to kill them and to "bring it on". At the same time I walked out of my house and was challenged byt a SWAT team in the creek in front of our house. After about 3 hours my brother came out of the woods with an AK. The officers ordered him to drop it but he refused but they tackled him rather than shoot him. He was using meth at the time.

And here is how he gets away with it. He was able to convince a doctor he hears voices. So every time he gets arrested, no matter how serious, his criminal charges get dropped and he is ordered for a mental evaluation. He generally speends a few weeks in Lakshore then is released. Or at least up until about a year ago. Now he is being arrested and spends time in jail. He is on probabtion for domestic violence for assaulting our 66 year old mother. I cannot get involved because of my father trying to have me arrested. And the last time I called the cops when my brother assaulted our mother I was the bad guy for calling the cops on him.

Most recently my wife and I were at the hospital as out niece was passing away from a car accident. My brother was making it all aobut him because my nice was getting all the attention. He was animated in the hospital and when security talked to him he got upset at the only person he could abuse, our mother. So my mother walks outside to get away from him and he gets in her face and begins yelling as well as acting like he is going to hurt her. My wife told my brother "now is not the time" to which my brother went into a tirade of cussing then tried to attack my wife. Security placed him in handcuffs and my mother told us that we have a vendetta against my brother and that everything that happened was our fault.

My parents have allowed my brother to get this bad and they let him remain in the house. So it is now their bed and they can sleep in it because every single time they have asked for me to help I am the bad guy when I do. My parents have become codependent on my brother and relish the sympathy they get by others. My father is a vindictive, abusive ###hole that will find a special place in hell. They think that every time he gets arrested it is my doing.

A few friends of his and I got together to help him out. I was going to pay for treatment, my choice of facilities. Another friend was going to rent a house for him for one year that included utilities. Another friend offered him a job and all he needed to do is show up. And another friend was going to give him a car. He was going to get all of this if he sent into treatment and completed it. My brother refused.

This is only a drop in the bucket of what my brother has done while on meth. My parents are screwed up, especially my father, and have been for a very long time. They have done some pretty brutal stuff to our son in the past as well. And now they wonder why he will not visit or talk to them.

Anyways, it is a wonder we are not crazy with everything we have had to deal with because of my brother and my parents. But our story is not the worst I am sure.

Dolomite

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I will have to politely disagree with you on this. Addicts of opiates obtain their drugs through pain clinics or dealers that get the drugs through pain clinics. The amount of drug that an opiate addict uses varies by the addict but they can readily obtain enough to get their fix through the supply line simply because it is being produced and can be obtained from the pain clinics in a somewhat legal fashion. As I stated in my previous post meth cooks have several people buying the pseudoephedra for them. Without an outright ban of pseudoephedra it will always be availible in some amount. However if it was prescription only the amount that a person would be prescribed would be so minute that it would be a small drop in the bucket compared to what is actually needed to make meth. I'm not up to date on the current laws as I have been out of the business for a couple of years but as of 2010 there was a state registry of pseudoephedra purchases but there was no network which linked all retailers so buyers would buy their monthly limit at Kroger, then go to Walgreens, then CVS, etc. By making the ingredient extremely hard to get production would undoubtedly be slashed. Beware however the only thing worse than a methhead that is high is a methhead that is having withdrawals.

Oh, so none of it's stolen, or imported illegally and distributed like coke and heroin? Come on. All those hydrocodones

just mysteriously appear from legitimate prescriptions that have wandered out of the hands and placed in the illicit drug

marketplace. Where is Crocket and Tubbs when I need them? Placing something that is otherwise a safe, effective drug

on the list of prescribed medicine only increases costs for consumers. I doubt it would have the impact you say. The added cost for a doctor's office visit, wasted time for sniffles. Go after the damned criminal. Don't make me pay for something I didn't do.

This is just another rationalization for the big government lover.

When you place additional burden for all to enjoy the fruit of technology, because of a few who abuse the same, all you are

doing is feeding the monster and costing the rest of us.

Punish good behavior and reward bad behavior. Sound good?

[TripleDigitRide]

Sounds like we should be praying for the day someone puts a bullet in his head. Unfortunately, there are many enabling parents just like yours. I can't tell you how many times I've seen it (including the parents of my daughter's mother and her family), and it sickens me.

Maybe not very politically correct, but some people are better off dead.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch using Tapatalk 2

[Guest HankRearden]

All most interesting, thanks for the post.

However,

is just not correct AFAIK. No methamphetamine in Adderall at all.

Matter of fact, I think the only prescription methamphetamine product still manufactured in the US is Desoxyn, and with no generic substitute.

Suggests what a nasty type "speed" it really is, as there are still plenty of other types of amphetamine on the market and gawd knows the pharmaceutical industry will crank out anything they're still allowed to if there's a buck in it.

best,

- OS

Do you understand the difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine?

Methamphetamine once ingested is converted to amphetamine.

Amphetamine is known as methylated phenylethylamine. Methamphetamine is the same thing, but it is double methylated, instead of only methylated once. It's this process of double methylation that makes the difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine.

My Adderall analogy is not by your definition correct because Adderall is a D/L amphetamine. It does not specifically say methamphetamine on the label but it does contain a component of methamphetamine (alpha-methylphenethylamine)It just gets broken down safer. I just use it when talking about meth because so many people can relate to Adderall easier.

Another is Vicks Vapor Inhalers which do contain L-methamphetamine/levodesoxyephedrine

Desoxyn is D-methamphetamine and is not used very much anymore.

[gregintenn]

I worked in loss prevention for six years, most of that time was spent in Putnam and Anderson Counties, both big meth places. I've had a lot of experience around methheads and it is a very scary situation. One store that I worked at had a pharmacy and normally my tactic to catch shoplifters in that store was to sit in the pharmacy like I was waiting for a prescription, I would wait until a methhead came in and bought or tried to buy Sudafed, I would then follow them around the store while they stole other stuff, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. It was never hard to distinguish who was buying because they had a cold and who was buying because they were making bathtub crank. I'm not normally one to promote any kind of laws or regulations but the key to stopping meth is to make pseudoephedra containing products prescription only. It takes a good bit of pseudoephedra to cook up a batch of meth. It was very common for non users to buy for the cooks as the street value for a $10 box of Sudafed is around $40. Users will also buy it and trade it for the finished product. If pseudoephedra containing products were prescription only it would be nearly impossible for cooks to obtain enough ingredient to make any tangible amount of the drug. I'm sure addicts would move on to something else but not many drugs available today are more destructive than meth.

Horse feces!!!!! We were told the same thing about the register deal of keeping up with the sale of pseudoephedrine. All it does is inconvenience law abiding citizens. It's done nothing to curb the problem. Making it prescription only will only fill doctors' waiting rooms, and make it impossible to see a doctor if you actually need one. If it becomes prescription only, I'll likely buy it on the black market, as I don't go to a doctor except to get broken bones set or something sewn up that won't stop bleeding.

If you know of an alternative to it that actually helps seasonal allergy symptoms, please share.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If you know of an alternative to it that actually helps seasonal allergy symptoms, please share.

Hi gregintenn

Maybe it doesn't work as good for everybody, but as I mentioned earlier fexofenadine is about as close to perfect for allergies that I've seen. Certain types of nose-allergies anyway. The same kinds that pseudofed are good for.

Pseudofed was good for nose allergies but not "real effective" but on the other hand I never could notice any side-effects. Benadryl is good if allergies are just kicking one's butt, but not for daytime use. Sometimes benadryl before bed won't make me too groggy the next day, but the antihistimine effects seem to last thru the day somewhat.

Chlorphenerimine Maleate + tylenol is the closest I've seen to eradicate a hopeless dry-sinus headache I'll get about once in the spring and once in the fall, but if you take that stuff in the daytime plan to do a lot of napping and its not such a good idea to drive or operate power tools.

They came out with various claritin things that weren't supposed to have side-effects, but I can't take that stuff. Maybe it doesn't cause side-effects for most folks but it makes me as goofy as benadryl. A different kind of goofy, but not pleasant at all.

But that fexophenadine seems lots more effective than pseudofed, with zilch side-effects. Neither nervous nor sleepy. No noticeable dry-mouth. The package says don't take it if you have kidney disease. Don't take anything very often and its better for you.

[gregintenn]

What is a trade name for fexophenadine?

I googled it, and found Allegra. It is expensive, and for me doesn't seem to work at all. Thanks for the suggestion, however.

Edited June 30, 2012 by gregintenn

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi greg. I buy the walmart brand fexofenadine that is cheaper than allegra. Only need to take it certain times in spring and fall. Interesting it is ineffective for you. Different strokes I guess.

[Oh Shoot]

Do you understand the difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine? ....

My experience was all personal, not chemistry courses, though I was damn handy with a PDR. In the 60's and 70's, ups were damn near free.

Certainly each genre had it's own characteristics, dextroamphetamine, biphetamine, benzedrine, methamphetamine. Would get the generally inferior Ritalin and Adderall too now and then. But only the meth that started as meth behaved like meth.

Though I admit to being at least somewhat dependent on uppers off and on during these years, I'd never have been a meth freak though; Eskatrol (dextro w/ added trank) was my overall fav, with the similar Dexamyl as a close second and could get them both legally and underground. Matter of fact, meth was never the fav upper for anyone I ever knew. But then we were connoisseurs, and could pick and choose.

Never really heard much about folks injecting speed of any kind around here back then -- that was usually only in realm of opiates/cocaine. It's been shown that opiate addicts with a constant supply can live pretty much same longevity as anyone else,and some can even maintain pretty normal life style indefinitely, just like some high functioning alcoholics; and course many millions of folks can use cannabis daily and live perfectly normal lives -- but there sure ain't any old speed freaks from back then still tweaking.

- OS

Edited July 1, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest Grout]

Truth. Folks don't like the truth. Some truths are are not easy to accept, such as-- "Humans have been killing each other since the beginning." Or "Humans have been exploiting each other since the beginning". Sometimes the explanation "its always been thataway and ain't likely to change" doesn't seem such a great excuse to leave things well enough alone.

you can't change human nature

[Dolomite_supafly]

you can't change human nature

Yes you can.

If not then we would all be acting like the animals we all are inside. It was through slow conditioning over time that we all have changed.

Dolomite

[Guest Grout]

Meth is just the "flavor of the generation" all the law enforcment and "articulate arguments and solutions" are not going to stop it.Strive to be a positive role model and teacher for the young people in your life if you want to make a difference

[Guest Grout]

Yes you can.

If not then we would all be acting like the animals we all are inside. It was through slow conditioning over time that we all have changed.Dolomite

and it would take about 30 days to revert back to that if a catasropic natural disaster or war hit a civilized nation

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Maybe I'm wrong but a certain percentage of each generation will have the personality to get strung out on something or t'other. Maybe in 100 or 1000 years it will be a different percentage, but we're kinda stuck short-term with whatever percentage we've got at the moment.

It doesn't have to be mind-altering drugs. Doesn't take drugs to get the "rewarding" neurotransmitters piled up in certain parts of the brain. Gambling, fighting or various risk-taking behaviors tweak the brain chemicals about the same as uppers. A fella who just can't do anything except sit in the basement and play video games can be just as unproductive as "non criminal" substance abusers.

It can also get steered to "positive" addictions-- a person who "can't help" but be a dedicated athlete, compulsive money-making, compulsive academic behavior, compulsive do-gooder. Seems easier to go unproductive routes, develop bad habits rather than good, but maybe we could learn to steer the natural inclination better. Dunno.

People get strung out for many reasons. Some do it to escape being miserable. Long ago the subset of "street hustlers" that were drug addicts-- Maybe it was a wrong theory but some believed that a heroin addict with a $300 a day habit was often as strung out on the "exciting" life-style as the drug, and the drug was only a token proving that the fella was playing the game well enough to make a good score. Take away the drug and there's no reason to play the game anymore, and the game was fun and exciting.

People have a natural liking for "do it yourself" to be able to create or make things all by themselves, rather than just go buy something off the shelf that might be better-cheaper than "doing it yourself". It may be that small time meth cookers could be as strung out on the game of scoring chemicals and making the product, as they are on the crank itself? Kind of a "perversion" of the impulse to be independent, self-sufficient, creative? Rather than designing gadgets or writing songs or building furniture, the fella gets admiration from his "peers" for being able to cook meth? It has to do with a fella's feeling of accomplishment more than any natural talent or achievement. Many people who write horrible songs still enjoy writing songs, so maybe doofuses who make the very worst quality of poison crank still earn pride by making the stuff?

[TMF]

Maybe I'm wrong but a certain percentage of each generation will have the personality to get strung out on something or t'other. Maybe in 100 or 1000 years it will be a different percentage, but we're kinda stuck short-term with whatever percentage we've got at the moment.

It doesn't have to be mind-altering drugs. Doesn't take drugs to get the "rewarding" neurotransmitters piled up in certain parts of the brain. Gambling, fighting or various risk-taking behaviors tweak the brain chemicals about the same as uppers. A fella who just can't do anything except sit in the basement and play video games can be just as unproductive as "non criminal" substance abusers.

It can also get steered to "positive" addictions-- a person who "can't help" but be a dedicated athlete, compulsive money-making, compulsive academic behavior, compulsive do-gooder. Seems easier to go unproductive routes, develop bad habits rather than good, but maybe we could learn to steer the natural inclination better. Dunno.

People get strung out for many reasons. Some do it to escape being miserable. Long ago the subset of "street hustlers" that were drug addicts-- Maybe it was a wrong theory but some believed that a heroin addict with a $300 a day habit was often as strung out on the "exciting" life-style as the drug, and the drug was only a token proving that the fella was playing the game well enough to make a good score. Take away the drug and there's no reason to play the game anymore, and the game was fun and exciting.

Lester, I often try to reflect on some of my life experience in order to determine why things are the way they are. Certainly I believe that meth addicts (like most other addicts) will seek out self destructive behavior no matter what the substance or lifestyle is. There will always be a percentage of the population that is this way in any society, but the fact that this percentage varies from one country or culture to the next is the intriguing part. I think the percentage is directly related to upbringing and what is socially acceptable in the culture/sub-culture, which happens to be a symbiotic relationship, so to speak, as each one provides fuel for the other.

For a while I thought it was related to poverty and standard of living, but after spending a lot of time in a country with high unemployment and a low standard of living that had such a limited drug problem (despite the potential for unlimited access) I had to rethink my opinion on it. Of course in this same culture it was socially acceptable to have sex with young boys to the point that the majority of males have endured some form of sexual abuse in their life, only to continue to pass on the ritual when they got older. Societal norms are all in perspective I guess.

This is what leads me to believe that laws against these drugs does very little to curb the problem, as is evident with the amount we've spent fighting the war on drugs, and yet have not made much progress; progress being gauged by the estimated number of users and the street value of product (adjusted for inflation). Oh, I'm sure there are those folks that get rolled up by the cops and realize that they are on the wrong path, and change their ways after release, but by and large folks who are in the illegal drug industry tend to remain there in one way or the other. So how does one attack this problem?

Well, the logical answer would be to identify what the problem is in the first place and try to get it at its source. I think that is done to a certain extent, however, if we invested a fraction of our money into that which is otherwise spent on the war on drugs I think we would see quantifiable results. Albeit, those results would take years to notice and gather data. The problem is our society wants immediate, quantifiable results. So they don't want to hear projections of what 10-20 years down the road will look like, they want to see pictures of the police making big busts of narcotics and other drugs, even if the reality of the situation is that those busts only make up the tip of the iceberg.

I think that we do this to a certain extent already with programs like D.A.R.E, which seeks to educate kids about the dangers of drug since their parents are incapable of doing it. But I remember when I was younger having a police officer come to the school every so often for D.A.R.E. programs, and I remember it being somewhat of a joke amongst my friends. I mean, here is this stranger trying to gain common ground with a bunch of 13 year olds, and yet his uniform and gun are a clear barrier between the reality of his world and mine. We all saw him as kind of a square, especially as he tried to use terms that were currently "hip". It was almost too difficult to watch. Although at that age I already had a great deal of respect for law enforcement, it wasn't really a source of guidance for most other boys my age. I won't say that D.A.R.E. is pointless; I think it's a great program, but it is the parents that have to be involved in providing guidance for their children above all. But we can't beat the parents into doing it. Many of them don't care to talk to their kids and some are drug users themselves.

So we have the ad campaigns of the '90s that sought to educate young kids and guilt parents into talking to their kids about drugs. I thought that was a good initiative; not sure why those commercials died down in the last decade, but they have. Without the guarantee that parents will do the right thing, the only other way to combat a generation from going down the rabbit hole of a druggy lifestyle would be to change the social perception of drugs. Unfortunately that would involve using the various forms of media and "role models" of today's youth to vilify drug use to the point that it becomes and unpopular and shameful lifestyle choice. I mean, this same system of media and Hollywood elite have changed the cultural perception of gay relationships in a matter of 15 years. Certainly they could turn drug use on its head... of course, they would have to stop using it themselves, and we all know what a cocaine ride all of our celebrities our on.

So back to what I was originally saying, what perpetuates this problem is a society and parenting issue. If those don't get fixed I don't see the problem being any smaller no matter how many laws are passed on it. As long as drug use is a socially acceptable thing then the problem has only the potential to get worse. Unfortunately the only answer our government has to offer is to keep banning stuff to the point that I now have to do as much paperwork to buy a $5 pack of sudafed as I do to buy a gun. I don't like it.

Edited July 1, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest db99wj]

Show before and after pictures in High school health class, right after that old drivers ed video that is probably too harsh to show anymore. That will teach them.

[tnhawk]

Yes you can.

If not then we would all be acting like the animals we all are inside. It was through slow conditioning over time that we all have changed.

Dolomite

The current welfare system of our government over the past few generations proves this.

[10-Ring]

Horse feces!!!!! We were told the same thing about the register deal of keeping up with the sale of pseudoephedrine. All it does is inconvenience law abiding citizens. It's done nothing to curb the problem. Making it prescription only will only fill doctors' waiting rooms, and make it impossible to see a doctor if you actually need one. If it becomes prescription only, I'll likely buy it on the black market, as I don't go to a doctor except to get broken bones set or something sewn up that won't stop bleeding.

If you know of an alternative to it that actually helps seasonal allergy symptoms, please share.

Why did you start this thread in the first place? It's clear that you do not have the answer to the problem or you would have not started this thread. As an individual that has dealt with methamphetamine addicts on a daily basis and has spent a countless amount of time studying the habits and processes of meth addicts I see the way to stop the problem is to take away their key ingredient. This however will be my last post in this thread. I can debate any topic, regardless of my personal feelings on that topic, but it must be done in a civil way. When you ask a question and someone provides you with an answer it is not polite to respond with "horse feces" if you don't happen to agree with what that person says. That is rude and makes you appear to be ignorant and incapable of holding an intelligent conversation. I seriously doubt that you actually read my whole post anyway. As I have stated, it takes so much pseudoephedrine to manufacture meth that the amount obtained from multiple prescriptions would not be enough to manufacture any meth. If you don't agree with that statement that is fine but instead of just spouting off something such as "oh that's a bunch of horse s***" provide reasons as to why the idea won't work. If there is a way to remedy this situation it will certainly require some sacrifice from society as a whole. I know it is inconvenient to have to sign for you medication, but we must look at this as a trade off. The registry would be 1000 times better if it was linked between every retailer in the state. The drug task force would come into my store and question and often ultimately arrest purchasers of pseudoephedrine products. The agents could pull up all of the buyers pseudoephedrine purchases statewide which was always a very good sign of whether they had a cold or whether they were involved in the meth business, there really is no in between. So although you may think that the registry is not working law enforcement is using the registry on a daily bases to track the activity of the people who are buying this stuff and providing it to meth cooks.

[Will H]

Drugs are bad. M'Kay?

[NRA]

Why did you start this thread in the first place? It's clear that you do not have the answer to the problem or you would have not started this thread. As an individual that has dealt with methamphetamine addicts on a daily basis and has spent a countless amount of time studying the habits and processes of meth addicts I see the way to stop the problem is to take away their key ingredient. This however will be my last post in this thread. I can debate any topic, regardless of my personal feelings on that topic, but it must be done in a civil way. When you ask a question and someone provides you with an answer it is not polite to respond with "horse feces" if you don't happen to agree with what that person says. That is rude and makes you appear to be ignorant and incapable of holding an intelligent conversation. I seriously doubt that you actually read my whole post anyway. As I have stated, it takes so much pseudoephedrine to manufacture meth that the amount obtained from multiple prescriptions would not be enough to manufacture any meth. If you don't agree with that statement that is fine but instead of just spouting off something such as "oh that's a bunch of horse s***" provide reasons as to why the idea won't work. If there is a way to remedy this situation it will certainly require some sacrifice from society as a whole. I know it is inconvenient to have to sign for you medication, but we must look at this as a trade off. The registry would be 1000 times better if it was linked between every retailer in the state. The drug task force would come into my store and question and often ultimately arrest purchasers of pseudoephedrine products. The agents could pull up all of the buyers pseudoephedrine purchases statewide which was always a very good sign of whether they had a cold or whether they were involved in the meth business, there really is no in between. So although you may think that the registry is not working law enforcement is using the registry on a daily bases to track the activity of the people who are buying this stuff and providing it to meth cooks.

10-ring I hear ya and we will all never agree on this topic no matter how many times it is brought up, I knew this would just be another smelly can of worms.

[sigmtnman]

Why did you start this thread in the first place? It's clear that you do not have the answer to the problem or you would have not started this thread. As an individual that has dealt with methamphetamine addicts on a daily basis and has spent a countless amount of time studying the habits and processes of meth addicts I see the way to stop the problem is to take away their key ingredient. This however will be my last post in this thread. I can debate any topic, regardless of my personal feelings on that topic, but it must be done in a civil way. When you ask a question and someone provides you with an answer it is not polite to respond with "horse feces" if you don't happen to agree with what that person says. That is rude and makes you appear to be ignorant and incapable of holding an intelligent conversation. I seriously doubt that you actually read my whole post anyway. As I have stated, it takes so much pseudoephedrine to manufacture meth that the amount obtained from multiple prescriptions would not be enough to manufacture any meth. If you don't agree with that statement that is fine but instead of just spouting off something such as "oh that's a bunch of horse s***" provide reasons as to why the idea won't work. If there is a way to remedy this situation it will certainly require some sacrifice from society as a whole. I know it is inconvenient to have to sign for you medication, but we must look at this as a trade off. The registry would be 1000 times better if it was linked between every retailer in the state. The drug task force would come into my store and question and often ultimately arrest purchasers of pseudoephedrine products. The agents could pull up all of the buyers pseudoephedrine purchases statewide which was always a very good sign of whether they had a cold or whether they were involved in the meth business, there really is no in between. So although you may think that the registry is not working law enforcement is using the registry on a daily bases to track the activity of the people who are buying this stuff and providing it to meth cooks.

By this logic, guns should be outlawed.

[gregintenn]

Why did you start this thread in the first place? It's clear that you do not have the answer to the problem or you would have not started this thread. As an individual that has dealt with methamphetamine addicts on a daily basis and has spent a countless amount of time studying the habits and processes of meth addicts I see the way to stop the problem is to take away their key ingredient. This however will be my last post in this thread. I can debate any topic, regardless of my personal feelings on that topic, but it must be done in a civil way. When you ask a question and someone provides you with an answer it is not polite to respond with "horse feces" if you don't happen to agree with what that person says. That is rude and makes you appear to be ignorant and incapable of holding an intelligent conversation. I seriously doubt that you actually read my whole post anyway. As I have stated, it takes so much pseudoephedrine to manufacture meth that the amount obtained from multiple prescriptions would not be enough to manufacture any meth. If you don't agree with that statement that is fine but instead of just spouting off something such as "oh that's a bunch of horse s***" provide reasons as to why the idea won't work. If there is a way to remedy this situation it will certainly require some sacrifice from society as a whole. I know it is inconvenient to have to sign for you medication, but we must look at this as a trade off. The registry would be 1000 times better if it was linked between every retailer in the state. The drug task force would come into my store and question and often ultimately arrest purchasers of pseudoephedrine products. The agents could pull up all of the buyers pseudoephedrine purchases statewide which was always a very good sign of whether they had a cold or whether they were involved in the meth business, there really is no in between. So although you may think that the registry is not working law enforcement is using the registry on a daily bases to track the activity of the people who are buying this stuff and providing it to meth cooks.

Sir, I started this thread out of frustration. You are correct in saying that I was harsher to you than I should have been. For that I apologize. I just get so frustrated in hearing that no matter what the problem is, somehow, I am the cause, or at least the solution is some sacrifice from me. As I said, we were all told that the registry system would end the meth problem. Now you say that making Sudafed a prescription drug would solve the problem. Haven't we seen this same logic with many, many, other societal problems. How many have we corrected by punishing law abiding citizens? If your logic is sound, why do we still have problems with illegal use of prescription drugs?

You are more than welcome to continue posting in this thread, and I promise I'll be nicer. Probably won't change my mind about this, but I will be nicer.

[TripleDigitRide]

How much of the cocaine and heroin in the U.S. is actually manufactured here? I'm pretty sure the correct answer is very near zero, but both can still be found in endless supplies with great ease.

Maybe we need to pass laws which require a prescription for cocoa leaves and poppy seeds...

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