Let's talk about Meth.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Would you let your kids do meth because they need to learn from the experience?

Sorry ..but I would not stand by and let my kid get hooked on meth and say "well here ya go.. go and try to figure this out on your own"

What kind of parent does that?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Some kids obey parents more reliably than other kids. Would hazard the guess that very few kids ALWAYS obey, or ALWAYS tell the parents EVERYTHING they do or think. It would be good if kids were more capable of benefiting from parents' wisdom, but kids are notoriously difficult to program. It is almost like each kid has a mind of his own or something, except when the defiance gets irrational and mindless. Just sayin, good parents can raise bad kids and vice-versa. If a kid decides to do something then he's gonna do it come hell or highwater. Especially as they get older.

[enfield]

Don't try to put words in my mouth. I differentiate between minor children and adult children. We all try to raise our children with wisdom and good advice, and a little punishment when it's deserved. When they reach adulthood, we hope they've also reached maturity and learned something along the way. I don't believe in coercing adults into behavior they don't want. I don't like to see homeless people sleeping in the streets, druggies wasting away from their habits, and criminals in striped suits picking up trash along the highway, but it's all a result of the sum of choices they've made in their lives -- make good choices and good things happen -- make bad choices and bad things happen. I'm willing to leave them to their results. It's called Liberty.

[DaveTN]

People who want to 'do' meth (however it is that they 'do' it) should be left free to partake. It's a self-correcting problem.

If we withhold everything harmful from children, aren't they just birds in cages?

So if you see the signs that your kids are driving DUI, smoking crack, or shooting meth; you just see how things work out?

It's called Liberty.

This is a thread about methamphetamine. You think trying to protect your kids from that is taking away their liberty?

These are questions; I am not trying to put words in your mouth?

Edited June 28, 2012 by DaveTN

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

You never stop being a parent..no matter how old they are...if they turn 40 and gey hooked on something like meth..tdarn tooten i would do everything in my power to help him/her..and if that involves taking away their liberty...so be it..i know what meth can do to.someone...

[Guest Lester Weevils]

You never stop being a parent..no matter how old they are...if they turn 40 and gey hooked on something like meth..tdarn tooten i would do everything in my power to help him/her..and if that involves taking away their liberty...so be it..i know what meth can do to.someone...

I agree most parents would want to do what they can. Am not saying that discipline and other wiles do not have their place, especially for younger kids.

Addictions are stubborn and I'm not aware that there is one strategy that works any better than others. Only saying, I'm about to give references that might think "doing everything in my power" to help an adult addicted relative might not be the best path. Well actually, it depends on what you think is in your power to accomplish. So anyway this family support group seems to work pretty well for lots of folks, but because the problem is so stubborn there is no guarantee the folks are right or wrong--

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

Sometimes a spouse or parent "going to the ends of the earth" to help a troubled relative, some folks might call that a codependent relationship that does no good for anyone involved--

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/signs-of-a-codependent-relationship

It is a family interpretation of the alcoholics anonymous attitude-- You do what you can over issues you can control, and you try to quit worrying, let go, of the issues you cannot control. Because a parent can't control a too-far-gone older child, and a non-addicted spouse can't control a too-far-gone spouse, the best path is to (if you can stand it) leave the door open to the kid or spouse if by some miracle he straightens up, but otherwise take care of yourself because that is something you have control over.

[Guest Sooner]

I think we should have enforcement about like Germany. You can do that kind of junk if you want and kill yourself off, but if you bother anyone else in the process or do something stupid the cops will beat you into the pavement until you can't move, then they'll call some buddies over to beat you some more, then they'll plop you in jail for however long they feel like it.

I agree after a fashion. I am sick and tired of the government punishing everyone for the actions of a minority because they are too damn lazy to do their job with an emphasis on resolving the problem ( I have allergies and sometimes use Sudafed, which I now have to jump through hoops to get). What we always get whenever there is a problem to solve is some knee-jerk horsefeathers that politicians present as real action, which they then go around and pat themselves on the back for as a job well done. Yeah, right. We have more than enough laws to last a lifetime and half of them aren't even enforced. Do us a favor and stop legislating and start doing. If these methheads aren't committing some other illegal act, let them put themselves in an early grave and if they do commit a crime--punish them for that. Which part of that is giving politicians distinct problems?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Sooner

[gregintenn]

How will they develop character if they never learn to face temptation or peer pressure and say 'NO'? If we withhold everything harmful from children, aren't they just birds in cages? Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement (to coin a phrase ).

I'll go out on a limb and guess you don't have children.....at least I hope not.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement (to coin a phrase ).

It is a well-turned phrase.

[sigmtnman]

Some folks are addicted to shopping to the detriment of thier family, but it's still legal and freely available

Some folks are addicted to TV to the detriment of thier family, but it is legal and freely available.

To me, the worst addiction today is smart phones and crap like facebook. Look at how many families are ruined by those things, but they are still legal and freely available.

Same could be said for guns and is said.

People want to regulate other peoples activities. Not their own. Nothing like a little survival of the fittest to weed out the gene pool.

Edited June 29, 2012 by sigmtnman

[Mike.357]

heck if pot was legal there would be millions who would never try any drug after that.

The stuff being illegal forces those that want to get high to try what is available. then you get problems

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Well there have been meth problems in nations all around the world. I read it is a problem certain nations in asia. And opiates have been bad problems lots of places and periods of history. Not offering opinion on how much prohibition does us any good, merely recognizing that those things have been big problems in other cultures as well as ours.

Have wondered if pot would become LESS popular over time if legalized? Have wondered if some of its popularity is related to rebellion and "forbidden fruit".

I don't have strong evidence, just indications based on the popularity of pot in other cultures. A couple of viet nam war vet friends, if I'm remembering what they said correctly and they were not lying-- Said pot grew everywhere but the natives didn't much care about it. On the other hand they said the natives liked alcohol just fine and would more likely want a beer than a joint.

Back in the 60's when pot just started hitting the USA middle class, a friend was a "upper middle class" engineering exchange student from India. He would take a drink once in awhile but had no interest in pot. He said it grows wild in India and when he was in high school he noticed some growing outside his house so he got curious and ate some of it. He said it made him sick and made him feel too weird, and he acted goofy enough to embarass himself at a family dinner, so he decided he didn't need any more pot.

Maybe that is bad info, but if it is true that alcohol is more popular than pot in other cultures where pot is actually cheaper than alcohol (if not free), then we already know the magnitude of our alcohol problem, and even with pot being illegal probably anybody who already wants to smoke it, smokes it anyway?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Mike.357]

I dunno Les. I wanna smoke pot but it is illegal. I like to be law abiding.

I can sit home and get falling down drunk, no one cares other than the old lady. and no one who matters cares what she thinks.

Alcohol has basically been legal forever, ( aside from some dark years, and that did not slow it down much) it has killed billions, worse of a killer than Hitler most likely.

Weed, not so much.

We had meth back in the 70's, no one much messed with it unless pot or hash could not be had. I assume it was more refined along the lines of OS's explanation. I tried it several times. It never made me want more as weed was to be had in a short amount of time.

Legalize the Bob and a lot of problems would be solved.

[DaveTN]

When I was young, it didn't take too much persuasion to get me to try or to do something. I'm not saying I would have tried this, but thank God it wasn't available to me.

That’s my point. Kids aren’t mature enough to make good decisions; that’s why they aren’t usually charged with crimes that stay with them for life, like adults are. From your comments you are a parent that has “situational awareness†when it comes to your kids. Many parents don’t and I’ve watched those parents break down when I had to tell them their kid was dead.

Alcohol and pot was bad enough, but now Meth and Crack has been thrown into the mix (along with other “designer drugs†that no one knows the long term effects of yet.)

Maybe that is bad info, but if it is true that alcohol is more popular than pot in other cultures where pot is actually cheaper than alcohol (if not free), then we already know the magnitude of our alcohol problem, and even with pot being illegal probably anybody who already wants to smoke it, smokes it anyway?

Alcohol is deadly with kids because even “good kids†will try it. It’s usually not the effects on the body that kills them, its thinking they can drive. After all; they see Mom and Dad do it.

[10-Ring]

I worked in loss prevention for six years, most of that time was spent in Putnam and Anderson Counties, both big meth places. I've had a lot of experience around methheads and it is a very scary situation. One store that I worked at had a pharmacy and normally my tactic to catch shoplifters in that store was to sit in the pharmacy like I was waiting for a prescription, I would wait until a methhead came in and bought or tried to buy Sudafed, I would then follow them around the store while they stole other stuff, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. It was never hard to distinguish who was buying because they had a cold and who was buying because they were making bathtub crank. I'm not normally one to promote any kind of laws or regulations but the key to stopping meth is to make pseudoephedra containing products prescription only. It takes a good bit of pseudoephedra to cook up a batch of meth. It was very common for non users to buy for the cooks as the street value for a $10 box of Sudafed is around $40. Users will also buy it and trade it for the finished product. If pseudoephedra containing products were prescription only it would be nearly impossible for cooks to obtain enough ingredient to make any tangible amount of the drug. I'm sure addicts would move on to something else but not many drugs available today are more destructive than meth.

[sigmtnman]

Yeah and some kids huffed white out and freon when I was in school. Guess what? Bunch of them died. The problem will take care of itself.

They kill and rob because it has become so costly and difficult for the bad apples to get what they want.

There are laws for when the behavior impacts others around and those are all we need. We don't need nanny laws.

The main reason we will continue to see more and more things made illegal is because there are FAR too many people who make a living from it. Law enforcement, DEA, IRS, Private prisons, Judges, court clerks, right on down the line. Think of how many people would be out on the streets without the government dole to support their income.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I worked in loss prevention for six years, most of that time was spent in Putnam and Anderson Counties, both big meth places. I've had a lot of experience around methheads and it is a very scary situation. One store that I worked at had a pharmacy and normally my tactic to catch shoplifters in that store was to sit in the pharmacy like I was waiting for a prescription, I would wait until a methhead came in and bought or tried to buy Sudafed, I would then follow them around the store while they stole other stuff, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. It was never hard to distinguish who was buying because they had a cold and who was buying because they were making bathtub crank. I'm not normally one to promote any kind of laws or regulations but the key to stopping meth is to make pseudoephedra containing products prescription only. It takes a good bit of pseudoephedra to cook up a batch of meth. It was very common for non users to buy for the cooks as the street value for a $10 box of Sudafed is around $40. Users will also buy it and trade it for the finished product. If pseudoephedra containing products were prescription only it would be nearly impossible for cooks to obtain enough ingredient to make any tangible amount of the drug. I'm sure addicts would move on to something else but not many drugs available today are more destructive than meth.

I'm sorry but this is a load of it. How are the ones getting percocet and the other opioids? Those are already

prescription only. You have to sign for, and can only get a limited amount of Sudafed. The amounts used to

make meth involve a lot more than you can legally purchase at a drug store. How much meth can be made

with what you can carry out of one of places you police? I thought it was the same everywhere in TN.

There is much more going on with supply and distribution of Sudafed than simply buying it over the counter.

The run of the mill redneck can't get his hands on enough of the stuff without resorting to another method of

distribution of it if he is making it for some kind of profit.

Don't get me wrong. I use to use Sudafed and would still, occasionally, but the laws making it essentially a

controlled substance by having to sign for it made me change to other remedies and I resent that completely.

It has done absolutely nothing to stem the use of Sudafed in making meth and is only taking a good commodity

off the market because of other's misuse. Hell, just make everything prescription only.

Don't you love that Walgreens pharmacist telling you how to take your prescriptions? My doctor already told me,

thank you.

I agree with you, enfield. they would be caged birds.

Legalizing mary jane could go one way or another, but I still can't compare it to alcohol.

Some of you love all these laws that eventually cage everyone, so keep it up. Let's work on individual accountability

and raise your kids better. They need to be learning right from wrong. Something like parents and family

can do a lot more than Big Brother taking care of you.

Mike, you want to smoke a joint? Have at it! I seriously doubt you would get arrested for one, anyway. You might be

disappointed. Easy to find in Knoxville, too.

There is no easy solution to meth, or any addiction, but when you let the state control this issue, as has already

happened, and take the parent out of front and center, you've already lost the battle. Decriminalizing certain classes

of drugs may be an issue down the road, but I can't bring myself to supporting it, yet. Once a problem in society has

been politicized, it's difficult to undo. It's already a sign of a dying civilization.

Edited June 29, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[10-Ring]

I'm sorry but this is a load of it. How are the ones getting percocet and the other opioids? Those are already

prescription only. You have to sign for, and can only get a limited amount of Sudafed. The amounts used to

make meth involve a lot more than you can legally purchase at a drug store. How much meth can be made

with what you can carry out of one of places you police? I thought it was the same everywhere in TN.

There is much more going on with supply and distribution of Sudafed than simply buying it over the counter.

The run of the mill redneck can't get his hands on enough of the stuff without resorting to another method of

distribution of it if he is making it for some kind of profit.

I will have to politely disagree with you on this. Addicts of opiates obtain their drugs through pain clinics or dealers that get the drugs through pain clinics. The amount of drug that an opiate addict uses varies by the addict but they can readily obtain enough to get their fix through the supply line simply because it is being produced and can be obtained from the pain clinics in a somewhat legal fashion. As I stated in my previous post meth cooks have several people buying the pseudoephedra for them. Without an outright ban of pseudoephedra it will always be availible in some amount. However if it was prescription only the amount that a person would be prescribed would be so minute that it would be a small drop in the bucket compared to what is actually needed to make meth. I'm not up to date on the current laws as I have been out of the business for a couple of years but as of 2010 there was a state registry of pseudoephedra purchases but there was no network which linked all retailers so buyers would buy their monthly limit at Kroger, then go to Walgreens, then CVS, etc. By making the ingredient extremely hard to get production would undoubtedly be slashed. Beware however the only thing worse than a methhead that is high is a methhead that is having withdrawals.

[enfield]

I'll go out on a limb and guess you don't have children.....at least I hope not.

3 of them, all grown, married, college graduates & productive members of our dysfunctional society. Plus 3 of the cutest granddaughters you ever saw.

[TripleDigitRide]

The main reason we will continue to see more and more things made illegal is because there are FAR too many people who make a living from it. Law enforcement, DEA, IRS, Private prisons, Judges, court clerks, right on down the line. Think of how many people would be out on the streets without the government dole to support their income.

I think that is a HUGE part of it. The fact that agencies/jurisdictions compete with each other for the drug money confiscated during traffic stops/busts speaks volumes. And it's well-documented that they will tell bold-faced lies to get their hands on it.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch using Tapatalk 2

Edited June 30, 2012 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest HankRearden]

I work meth labs, cooks, smurfs and tweakers. That is all I work now because the problem has grown to the point that it is a full time job all by itself.

There are essentially two forms of meth. D-methamphetamine which is the dominant form on the street and L-methamphetamine which is the more common prescription form, like adderall. In a nutshell they both do the same thing except for dosage is different and they take different routes in the brain to reach the desired effects.

There are multiple forms of manufacturing meth. The most prevalent being the one pot (Google one pot meth and you will find the instructions and videos. Don't look for a gun though because tomorrow Google is protecting us from those) The second most prevalent is the red phosphorous cook. The old biker dope was most commonly done from a P2P cook which made a D/L form of meth that required large doses to work. They also required large amounts of chemicals that could only be purchased at chemical supply houses. P2P cooks are almost extinct because all the other forms are so much easier. If you can bake a cake you can cook meth.

These are not sophisticated labs with glassware and bunson burners. Most labs are nothing more than the ingredients and a couple of plastic bottles.

Nplex is a great monitoring system and does a good job tracking purchases. Nplex is where your information goes when you by any product containing pseudoephedrine (PSE).

They made great headlines in March of this year when it was reported that 40 thousand grams of PSE sales had been blocked. They did not report the one million grams of PSE that had been sold in that same time. One million grams right here in Tennessee alone. They did not report the almost 13% increase in sales for the same time frame 2011. They did not report the over 10% increase in the number of labs worked in TN compared to first quarter 2011. They do not talk about the increase in PSE sales nationally growing exponentially for the last several years. They do not talk about the average 15% a year in profits that PSE manufactures have been experiencing for the last several years.

All that monitoring has done is force cooks to hire out runners (called smurfs) to buy PSE for them. Where there used to be a few smurfs now there are many. It forced groups to expand and increased the rates of PSE theft in the pharmacies and increased the rate of fake IDs.

There are solutions but they are very unpopular. Prescription PSE being one. Oregon went from hundreds of labs a year to single digits. The only labs they work now are old labs that have been dumped on their state lines. MS is experiencing similar results with PSE prescriptions.

I can walk into any grocery store or big box store that has a pharmacy and walk out in a few minutes with everything I need to cook dope. Within a couple of hours I can have half to one full gram of meth.

If I am in a hurry I can do another cook that will produce about a quarter gram in 30 seconds. But the byproduct of that cook is phosgene gas and can get kinda sporty.

It is a poop sandwich and we are all eating it whether you think you are or not.

Edited June 30, 2012 by HankRearden

[Oh Shoot]

All most interesting, thanks for the post.

However,

... L-methamphetamine which is the more common prescription form, like adderall.

is just not correct AFAIK. No methamphetamine in Adderall at all.

Matter of fact, I think the only prescription methamphetamine product still manufactured in the US is Desoxyn, and with no generic substitute.

Suggests what a nasty type "speed" it really is, as there are still plenty of other types of amphetamine on the market and gawd knows the pharmaceutical industry will crank out anything they're still allowed to if there's a buck in it.

best,

- OS

Edited June 30, 2012 by OhShoot

[TripleDigitRide]

Making PSE prescription-only may show short-term declines in meth use and possibly a long-term decline meth labs, but I strongly suspect the Mexican drug cartels will simply step up their own meth production and distribution. They've already figured out the demand is there and have long begun manufacturing and shipping meth to the U.S.

Like cocaine and marijuana, the U.S. authorities won't even come close to putting a dent in product that hits the streets.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S II Epic 4G Touch using Tapatalk 2

Edited June 30, 2012 by TripleDigitRide

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Alcohol is deadly with kids because even “good kids†will try it. It’s usually not the effects on the body that kills them, its thinking they can drive. After all; they see Mom and Dad do it.

Hi Dave. Yep growing up is risky. We can try as best possible to give advice and guidance, and I don't see anything wrong with child-specific laws like don't let em buy cigarettes or beer (or pot). The kiddies will get it anyway if they want to badly enough, but maybe it does some good without doing too much harm. It may be that it is easier for kids to get pot than beer, because legal beer priced most moonshiners out of business? On the other hand, the profit is there for a "drug moonshiner" and the money from a kid spends as good as the money from an adult? Legalize pot and drive most "drug moonshiners" out of biz and maybe kids would have a tougher time getting the pot, not easier as Bill O'Reilly always argues?

Growing up is risky front to back. Kids die from playing football and running full-speed into a goal post. They die from heat exhaustion or heart attack at football camp. They die yelling "hey ya'll watch this" and jumping off into the quarry or the blue hole. Outlaw football and drain all the blue holes I guess.

I don't think I'm being cold and cruel, but it's reminiscent of nature films showing thousands of baby turtles hatching on the beach and swimming out to the ocean. Next year not many come back. Sometimes it seems amazing that so many human children survive to adulthood. Maybe it is because darwin has been culling the slow and/or unwise humans every generation for a miliion years?

I dunno Les. I wanna smoke pot but it is illegal. I like to be law abiding.

I can sit home and get falling down drunk, no one cares other than the old lady. and no one who matters cares what she thinks.

Alcohol has basically been legal forever, ( aside from some dark years, and that did not slow it down much) it has killed billions, worse of a killer than Hitler most likely.

Weed, not so much.

We had meth back in the 70's, no one much messed with it unless pot or hash could not be had. I assume it was more refined along the lines of OS's explanation. I tried it several times. It never made me want more as weed was to be had in a short amount of time.

Legalize the Bob and a lot of problems would be solved.

Mike, you come up with some hilarious witty lines. You could be right on the legalize pot issue, reducing demand for "other drugs of abuse". Dunno. I don't think legalizing pot would increase usage but am frequently incorrect. Was just wondering if legalizing pot might make it less popular rather than more so, because pot doesn't seem especially popular in some places where it grows wild. Didn't like pot when I tried it many moons ago. Now If we really wanted a super-nasty violent criminal black market we could outlaw coffee, tobacco or candy bars. Can't see people giving that up without a fight. There would be a much bigger market for blackmarket coffee than you would ever have for blackmarket meth.

=====

Sigmtnman and 6.8, right on! One thing that somewhat alleviates the near-criminalization of pseudofed is a relatively new over-the-counter allergy pill fexophenadine, that is the most effective no-side-effects allergy pill I've seen. Lots more effective than pseudofed. Hope nobody figures out how to use hardware store chemicals to convert fexofenadine into a recreational drug.

[Guest bkelm18]

Hope nobody figures out how to use hardware store chemicals to convert fexofenadine into a recreational drug.

It would take a bit more involved process for sure. Pseudoephedrine is a relatively simple organic molecule. Fexofenadine is considerably more complex.

Edited June 30, 2012 by bkelm18