Military & Police Call in About Gun Confiscation Orders

[JayC]

Anyone who openly declares jihad and operates in a terrorist organization against the US deserves exactly what he gets......a JDAM from 30k.

Can you show me the jihad exception in the Constitution? And he isn't the only American we've killed over in Yemen, we knowingly killed a 15 year old and a 29 year old, neither of which have been accused of committing jihad against America.

SCOTUS has ruled we can't put minors who rape and murder to death, yet the President can? With no judge or jury finding them guilty?

This Administration got up in front of congress and sworn under oath that they had not allowed any straw purchases to be gunwalked into Mexico... It wasn't until a whistle blower from the F-troop (BATFE) came forward and provided documentation that those statements were false, did the chief law enforcement officer of the United States came clean about the 'mistake'. Yet somehow I'm supposed to believe the administration when they send people out on talk shows telling us "oh sure he's a terrorist, he planned attacks on us... but we can't show you any proof"... I'm somehow supposed to believe they're telling the truth then? They won't find a 'mistake' in those statements down the road?

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

So, where exactly is this exception to the 5th Amendment? We have 3 people who have been killed by the Presidents order who were US citizens, far away from a war zone, unarmed.

[scoutfsu]

Whatever. One less terrorist Muhj in the world that won't be attacking us. I could give a #### what citizenship he was claiming or previously held. He renounced his US citizenship the second when he started attacking America. He earned his high explosive reward.

If you want to go arrest people like him, feel free to sign the papers and enlist....or fly on over commercially and have fun. Or would you rather risk the lives of others to capture terrorist scum?

Awlaki was all over the internet and TV preaching jihad. How does that compute with the Obama Administration saying "oh sure he's a terrorist, he planned attacks on us... but we can't show you any proof"...??

I have no idea why you're bringing up the Fast/Furious debacle. I'm talking about admitted terrorists and you're talking about gun running.

[RobertNashville]

Can you show me the jihad exception in the Constitution? And he isn't the only American we've killed over in Yemen, we knowingly killed a 15 year old and a 29 year old, neither of which have been accused of committing jihad against America.

It's not a criminal trial situation; it's called war and in war, people die (hopefully the enemy).

I’m not familiar off the top of my head with the details of the 15 and 29 year old you refer to but Anwar al-Awlaki is quite another story – he was a traitor who was in Yemen not by accident…not because his plane got diverted...he was there because he sympathized with and supported the efforts of terrorists who want to kill us. Maybe I'm just a hard-hearted SOB but if someone is oversees in someplace like Yemen or Iraq and hanging out with terrorists then I'm not going to shed any tears when we drop a bomb on their head whether that person is an "American" or not.

This Administration got up in front of congress and sworn under oath that they had not allowed any straw purchases to be gunwalked into Mexico... It wasn't until a whistle blower from the F-troop (BATFE) came forward and provided documentation that those statements were false, did the chief law enforcement officer of the United States came clean about the 'mistake'. Yet somehow I'm supposed to believe the administration when they send people out on talk shows telling us "oh sure he's a terrorist, he planned attacks on us... but we can't show you any proof"... I'm somehow supposed to believe they're telling the truth then? They won't find a 'mistake' in those statements down the road?

Yeah; government bureaucrats and politicians lie; especially this administration…I hope they pay the price for their lies.

However, that doesn’t mean that the government is secretly working with local police and planning to confiscate our guns. I'm sure there are plenty of people in and out of government who would like to do such a thing and if someone has actual evidence from credible sources that support the assertion then I’ll listen.

Until then I’m not going to waste my time listening to conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones.

[scoutfsu]

IIRC the 15 yr old was Awlaki's kid who was hanging out with another HVT and ended up as collateral damage.

[JayC]

Awlaki was all over the internet and TV preaching jihad. How does that compute with the Obama Administration saying "oh sure he's a terrorist, he planned attacks on us... but we can't show you any proof"...??

I have no idea why you're bringing up the Fast/Furious debacle. I'm talking about admitted terrorists and you're talking about gun running.

You know people keep saying that, but I watched a number of his internet youtube videos... He didn't say anything that Jeremiah Wright didn't say from his church in Chicago.... And as much as we all love Jeremiah Wright, I don't think any of us would accuse him of being a terrorist.

Awlaki, may very well have been a very bad dude who needed to be killed, but I no longer trust the government to make that call by themselves behind closed doors. There is a reason we have a limit on the power of the Government to arrest and hold people, let alone kill them... and there are reasons why no exception was added to the 5th Amendment... our founding fathers had seen the abuse of exceptions under the British crown.

Why did I bring Fast and Furious into the mix, if the Administration will lie under oath to Congress about something as minor as that, how can anybody be sure they wouldn't lie to the American people on a Sunday talk show about Awlaki's terrorist involvement? Does that mean they lied? Who knows, but I personally would want a jury of his pers to atleast look at the evidence and find him guilt before killing him.

It's not a criminal trial situation; it's called war and in war, people die (hopefully the enemy).

I understand that in war, soldiers are required to defend themselves, and at times American citizens could be killed while fighting against our military on the battle field, and that American citizens might be killed as collateral damage in a war zone. It's sad when it happens, but it's war...

But, neither of these are part of Alwaki's situation... He wasn't killed on the battle field while armed... He wasn't collateral damage... He was targetting and killed on orders from the President of the United States, with no judicial review, no verdict by a jury of his peers... unarmed riding down the road in a car, 1,000's of miles from any American troops...

Again, he may very well have been a terrorist, but what proof do you have that is the case? What evidence do you have? Other than second hand accounts from an administration who has point blank lied to our face?

I’m not familiar off the top of my head with the details of the 15 and 29 year old you refer to but Anwar al-Awlaki is quite another story – he was a traitor who was in Yemen not by accident…not because his plane got diverted...he was there because he sympathized with and supported the efforts of terrorists who want to kill us. Maybe I'm just a hard-hearted SOB but if someone is oversees in someplace like Yemen or Iraq and hanging out with terrorists then I'm not going to shed any tears when we drop a bomb on their head whether that person is an "American" or not.

Yet 2 more who won't get any christmas cards from this forum... The first was Samir Khan, who was the editor of a jihad magazine, was killed on the same day as Alwaki... He wasn't accused of being involved in 'operational' planning, just opps we killed another American...

The second, was Alwaki's 16 year old son, who was killed in a separate drone strike 2 weeks later. Again, not even a peep from the President on what his supposed crimes were... I know, you'll all say it was just a matter of time before he became a traitor too... but yet he wasn't even accused of committing any crimes, nor acts of terror.

If the President can label somebody a terrorist, and then order the military to kill them as they drive down a road... where does his power stop? We fought the revolutionary war with a King who didn't even have the power to have somebody summarily executed. They had to at least have a trial.

And as you've said this administration lies, more than most... what if they lied to us about any of this?

Yeah; government bureaucrats and politicians lie; especially this administration…I hope they pay the price for their lies.

However, that doesn’t mean that the government is secretly working with local police and planning to confiscate our guns. I'm sure there are plenty of people in and out of government who would like to do such a thing and if someone has actual evidence from credible sources that support the assertion then I’ll listen.

Until then I’m not going to waste my time listening to conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones.

As I said above... Alex Jones is mostly entertainment for people who like to believe in that kinda stuff, but sometimes he does break good stories (being one of the first to bring Fast and Furious to light for example...

[scoutfsu]

Is Jeremiah Wright (as detestable as he is) hanging out with Al-Qaeda or did I miss something? Is his organization responsible for one of the worst terrorist attacks on America? Has he/his organization been bombing US warships, embassies, attacking hotels, sending out suicide bombers, killing and mutilating people for kicks, etc?

If Alwaki was some random dude who was incorrectly labeled all those years, why didn't he just turn himself in and be proven innocent in the court of law?

If you are a terrorist or hang out with terrorists, you run the risk of being targeted. Play with fire, you're going to get burnt....

Actions have consequences.

[JayC]

IIRC the 15 yr old was Awlaki's kid who was hanging out with another HVT and ended up as collateral damage.

Yeah, he was killed on the same day as another HVT, but NOT in the same strike... The strike that killed him was not the same strike that killed

Ibrahim al-Banna and a brother of Fahd al-Quso.. There were 3 different drone strikes that day in the same town... Press releases from the Obama administration tend to gloss over that little fact and try to paint it as this kid was sitting next to the HVT's, that doesn't appear to be the case.

News reports place Alwaki's son eating barbecue outside with other "teenagers"... could some of them been militants? maybe... but they weren't HVT's it would appear.

What raises even more questions is how the Obama Administration first attempted to classify Alwaki's son as a militant in his twenties, and therefore a valid military target... and stuck by that claim until the family provided a copy of his Colorado birth certificate showing he was 16.

Now that poses a very interesting question, how did he get labeled a 20 year old militant? Wouldn't the CIA have known his real age seeing as his birth was a matter of public record? Now, months later we learn the Obama administration in an attempt to keep collateral damage numbers down, had been counting all "military age men" killed in all drone strikes as militants and not civilian deaths.

More questions than answers

Edited June 26, 2012 by JayC

[scoutfsu]

From Time:

"According to his relatives, Abdulrahman left the family home in the Sana'a area on Sept. 15 in search of his fugitive father who was hiding out with his tribe, the Awalak, in the remote, rugged southern province of Shabwa. Days after the teenager began his quest, however, his father was killed in a U.S. drone strike. Then, just two weeks later, the Yemeni government claimed another air strike killed a senior al-Qaeda militant. Abdulrahman, his teenage cousin and six others died in the attack as well."

[scoutfsu]

Yet 2 more who won't get any christmas cards from this forum... The first was Samir Khan, who was the editor of a jihad magazine, was killed on the same day as Alwaki... He wasn't accused of being involved in 'operational' planning, just opps we killed another American...

Here's something from the NYTimes:

"American officials said that the missile strike also killed Samir Khan, an American citizen of Pakistani origin who was an editor of Inspire, Al Qaeda’s English-language online magazine. Mr. Khan, who grew up in Queens and North Carolina, proclaimed in the magazine last year that he was “proud to be a traitor to America,†and edited articles with titles like “Make a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom.†"

You're willing to risk patriotic American lives in order to try and capture self proclaimed traitors and bring them to trial?

[JayC]

From Time:

"According to his relatives, Abdulrahman left the family home in the Sana'a area on Sept. 15 in search of his fugitive father who was hiding out with his tribe, the Awalak, in the remote, rugged southern province of Shabwa. Days after the teenager began his quest, however, his father was killed in a U.S. drone strike. Then, just two weeks later, the Yemeni government claimed another air strike killed a senior al-Qaeda militant. Abdulrahman, his teenage cousin and six others died in the attack as well."

Wonder who Time's source was? hmmm But, this earlier article from BBC (also covered by CNN), from a source in Yemen instead of the White House:

The son of U.S.-born militant cleric Anwar Al-Awlaki was among those killed in a trio of drone attacks in southern Yemen on Friday night, a security official said.

The attacks, carried out in the Shabwa district, killed seven suspected militants, the defense ministry said. It would not confirm that Abdul Rahman Anwar Awlaki was among them.

The senior security official in Shabwa, who did not want to be named because he is not authorized to speak to the media, said the younger Awlaki had been hiding in the mountains of Shabwa for more than eight months. He had first-hand knowledge of the death, he said.

Who knows, maybe some of these reports are wrong? But it's enough to be curious... The administration tried to either mislead the public on the teenagers name, or our intelligence on a native born citizen is so bad we don't know what decade he was born in...

[scoutfsu]

If you look at what the Times said - "the Yemeni government claimed...", there's your Yemeni source.

With hundreds of millions of citizens I doubt they can track everyone. I'm sure if they had his birth certificate it would have been more initially accurate. It appears they did not. Regardless if he was 15, 21, or 30 - hang around known terrorists and you might get caught in the spall.

I am more willing to be suspect of initial reports.....they seem to miss things in their rush to be the first to put it on the air. Between two governments, a language barrier, uncertain events, and so on, I'm sure some things do get lost in translation. I'm not saying the Government can't and doesn't mislead and/or flat out lie........but Alwaki's history isn't a secret and it didn't spring up overnight. Nor was his editor compatriot misquoted......

Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) released on Monday the second issue of its English-language magazine called Inspire. The 74-page edition features an article by a 24 year-old former resident of North Carolina and New York City named Samir Khan.

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) released excerpts from the interview on its website Monday. The cover page of the article, entitled "I Am Proud To Be a Traitor to America", states that the article will tell "the story of the Muslim American jihadi Samir Khan. After working a few years in the jihad media sector in America, he packed his bags and left for Yemen to help the mujahidin. This is an account of how he happily became a traitor to America and why he chose to make such a decision."

Some notable excerpts from Samir Khan's story as quoted by both MEMRI and Fox News are: "I am a traitor to America because my religion requires me to be. We pledge to wage jihad for the rest of our lives until either we implant Islam all over the world or meet our Lord as bearers of Islam."...

Dude wants to be a traitor? Good deal. Don't expect to enjoy any of those rights you're renouncing and attacking....I'm not going to shed a single tear for the death of a terrorist.

ETA: wanted to drop this on our misunderstood friend Alwaki....from Reuters....http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/20/us-yemen-qaeda-awlaki-idUSTRE7BJ1W620111220

"You have two choices: either hijra (emigration) or jihad (holy war)," Awlaki said in the video, which was posted on Islamist websites...................Awlaki was implicated in a failed attempt by al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula to bomb a U.S.-bound airliner in 2009, and he had contacts with an American army psychiatrist who killed 13 people at a U.S. military base the same year.

And this is why we kill people like him -

In November, New York police arrested a follower of Awlaki on suspicion of building a pipe bomb to use against U.S. soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Eloquent in English and Arabic, Awlaki encouraged attacks on the United States and was seen as a man who could draw in more al Qaeda recruits from Western countries.

Edited June 27, 2012 by scoutfsu

[TMF]

How many American citizens of German decent did we kill on the battlefields of Europe in WWII who fought for the Nazis?

Did we try to capture them first or did we treat them like any other enemy combatant? Were there cries from Constitutionalists about their due process? What has changed?

[RobertNashville]

...

Nothing you've said is this series of posts causes me one moment of sadness for this traitor and that's exactly what al-Awalki was, a traitor on foreign soil and he wasn't there to take in the sights.

American "citizenship" has to be more than just where you were born; al-Walki may have been an "American" by birth but when he starts giving aid to the enemy then he is just another terrorist and deserves to die like any other.

Edited June 27, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest ThePunisher]

We've got a lot of citizens that are traitors within our government, and media at this very moment. I bet General Patton is turning in his grave.

[JayC]

How many American citizens of German decent did we kill on the battlefields of Europe in WWII who fought for the Nazis?

Did we try to capture them first or did we treat them like any other enemy combatant? Were there cries from Constitutionalists about their due process? What has changed?

There is a big difference between killing armed soldiers on a battlefield and dropping a bomb on somebodies head who is unarmed, 1000's of miles away from any battlefield.

[scoutfsu]

JayC, isn't an enemy an enemy no matter what? Just because he's not walking up to your door with an SVEST or popping shots over his head w/ an AK at you doesn't mean he's not a target. This is a new asymmetric battlefield. The front lines of yesterday no longer apply.

These people don't think twice about bombing market places, cutting of your head, or inciting others to do the same. If a person renounces his citizenship and basks in declaring himself a traitor to America, why should they retain the very freedom and values that they attack? They deserve no quarter.

Today's battlefields are everywhere, not just a mountain in the Korengal or a building in Fallujah.

[TMF]

There is a big difference between killing armed soldiers on a battlefield and dropping a bomb on somebodies head who is unarmed, 1000's of miles away from any battlefield.

Well, no there isn't. It is perfectly legal to kill an enemy combatant whether they are armed or not. The ROE restrictions we put on ourselves in Afghanistan (and formerly Iraq) is what has prevented us from fighting war the way it is legally designed. We can drop bombs on the lowest ranking chai boy in al-Qaeda while he pumps gas into his crappy Pugeot. Similarly, we can bomb the sh!t out of any high ranking member of that military organization. We nailed Zarqawi with a JDAM while he was probably balls deep in his mistress.... killer her too. Is that against the law of land warfare? Hell no it isn't. How is this guy any different? Because he was once American? Sorry, he is an enemy combatant; he doesn't have to be actively engaging us to be classified as such. We have Generals in our Army that haven't picked up a weapon in decades and have probably never fired a shot in anger. Are they legitimate targets to enemy fighters? Yes. That is how war works. We stopped fighting wars in straight lines 150 years ago.

Edited June 27, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest ThePunisher]

Jimmy Carter has just come out criticizing Obama's anti-terror strategies of targeting terrorist with drones saying they flout directly the basic universal human rights and foment anti-US feelings around the world. The former worst president ever criticizing the now worst president ever in US history. Now that is funny.

Edited June 27, 2012 by ThePunisher

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The point remains it wouldn't be a stretch for

us to be the target in the future if our government

keeps going in the same direction. I don't care

much for the drones, which are coming/ here

already. The terrorist shots may even be

justified, but the use of the Patriot Act may

possibly be turned against us if it isn't kept

in check. We gave up rights(freedom) for

so-called security and look who is in charge

right now.

Too much stuff has changed with our gov

to just assume everything's fine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RobertNashville]

There is a big difference between killing armed soldiers on a battlefield and dropping a bomb on somebodies head who is unarmed, 1000's of miles away from any battlefield.

The "battlefield" in this war is ANY building, structure, street, town or spider hole the terrorists happen to be in at the moment and you kill them when and wherever you find them. What country they claim to be a citizen of is absolutely immaterial an enemy is an enemy.

[Just2Honor]

I invite everyone, particularly military, veterans, and law enforcement, to check out and join Oath Keepers (www.oathkeepers.com). A group of over 16,000 members who still abide by the oath they took to "defend the Constitution" (I don't remember an expiration date, do you?) Not a militia, but a non-partison group with the goal of educating military and law enforcement. After the gun confiscations in New Orleans (Katrina) when LEOs and some military made searches of law-abiding citizen's homes to confiscate all guns in the city the group picked up steam. Thankfully some military refused to obey an order which violated parts of the Constitution. Does your sheriff or chief of police know his responsibility to the oath he took? How about elected officials?

You don't have to be military, veteran, or LE to join as a "supporter"

Edited June 27, 2012 by RoadKill

[RobertNashville]

I invite everyone, particularly military, veterans, and law enforcement, to check out and join Oath Keepers (www.oathkeepers.com). A group of over 16,000 members who still abide by the oath they took to "defend the Constitution" (I don't remember an expiration date, do you?) Not a militia, but a non-partison group with the goal of educating military and law enforcement. After the gun confiscations in New Orleans (Katrina) when LEOs and some military made searches of law-abiding citizen's homes to confiscate all guns in the city the group picked up steam. Thankfully some military refused to obey an order which violated parts of the Constitution. Does your sheriff or chief of police know his responsibility to the oath he took? How about elected officials?

You don't have to be military, veteran, or LE to join as a "supporter"

I think the correct link is actually http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

Edited June 27, 2012 by RobertNashville

[JayC]

Well, no there isn't. It is perfectly legal to kill an enemy combatant whether they are armed or not. The ROE restrictions we put on ourselves in Afghanistan (and formerly Iraq) is what has prevented us from fighting war the way it is legally designed. We can drop bombs on the lowest ranking chai boy in al-Qaeda while he pumps gas into his crappy Pugeot. Similarly, we can bomb the sh!t out of any high ranking member of that military organization. We nailed Zarqawi with a JDAM while he was probably balls deep in his mistress.... killer her too. Is that against the law of land warfare? Hell no it isn't. How is this guy any different? Because he was once American? Sorry, he is an enemy combatant; he doesn't have to be actively engaging us to be classified as such. We have Generals in our Army that haven't picked up a weapon in decades and have probably never fired a shot in anger. Are they legitimate targets to enemy fighters? Yes. That is how war works. We stopped fighting wars in straight lines 150 years ago.

First, you and I don't have any proof that he was an enemy combatant, much less his teenage son who was killed 2 weeks later... The Obama Administration claims (without showing one shred of proof) that he was involved in "operational" planning.

Your class on the rules of war seems to be completely different than the classes I had... I was taught that you're not allowed to intentionally target unarmed civilians, and that is a very fine line... bomb an arms factory and kill 100's of civilians working there... valid military target, collateral damage... kill some unlucky man driving across a bridge at the wrong time, collateral damage.... rounding up 'military aged' men and shooting them because the town is harboring a guerrilla force that killed my men yesterday, war crime... shooting the same 5 men if they're armed running away from my force, perfectly fine...

I'm not suggesting that our war fighters must place their lives at greater risk on the battlefield when dealing with armed enemy combatants just because the combatants happen to be American civilians... You don't see me arguing about the civil rights of Johnny Walker Lindh, who was captured on a battlefield armed fighting American soldiers. I'm not suggesting we hamstring the military as we do with the ROE in the sandbox today... Only that we follow our Constitution and the rules of war we have legally agreed to abide by.

But, even under the relaxed definition of 'unlawful enemy combatant', Alwaki doesn't fit... Could there be some secret evidence that he was involved in planning operations against the US? Sure, but show me the proof, no offense but I'm not going to take the Obama Administrations word for it...

There are hard limits that are placed on the government for a reason... they make situations such as these harder... It's much simpler to drop a bomb and do away with somebody who is a problem... but we don't allow the Constitution doesn't allow for that expediency... Are we a nation of laws, or a nation of men? The Obama Administration won't even publish the legal justification for killing American citizens without due process of law, how can a document which contains nothing but legal opinions on the justification to use deadly force against American citizens be a national security secret? We're not even talking about the evidence they had, just the legal opinion to justify their actions... that is secret?

The current administration won't even agree to limit themselves to only performing these drone attacks against American's in far away lands, they believe this legal justification is valid within the borders of the United States, yet they won't publish the legal justification?

Anyhow, Alwaki never posed a serious threat to our country... AQAP is nothing more than a pain in our butt today, and for the foreseeable future... They had managed to attempt 3 attacks on the United States (which only began after we started attacking them in Yemen)... None of which were successful.... The "links" not withstanding media claims between Alwaki and the Fort Hood shootings are questionable at best, the emails traded back and forth were reviewed by military investigators and determined to fall under Constitutionally protected religious correspondence. The military read these emails, knew who they were to/from and didn't find them threatening enough to do anything about.

There are bad people in this world, some of which deserve to die, and Alwaki may very well be one of those men... but that isn't the call our President gets to make... When the Constitution can be set aside because it's too hard to bring a citizen to justice, on the say so of 1 man who is not held accountable to the limits placed on him... we no longer have a Constitution.

I took an oath to uphold the Constitution, I suspect from reading different posts of yours on the forums, you did as well... My point is simple, targeting Alwaki the way we did crossed the line and was a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, it's not the first time (and I think we can both agree on this) this President has violated his oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. I'm afraid it won't be the last time he violates the Constitution, and unfortunately Presidents down the road will likely uses these violations as justification for their own violations. And that worries me a great deal.

Edited June 27, 2012 by JayC

[RobertNashville]

...

"U.S. Citizen" or not, if you are going to hang with terrorists then you should expect (and you deserve to) HANG with terrorists (on in today's warfare, have a bunker buster dropped on your head; I'm not sure why that is such a difficult concept.

This traitor does not deserve one tear from anybody.

[TMF]

I'm not suggesting that our war fighters must place their lives at greater risk on the battlefield when dealing with armed enemy combatants just because the combatants happen to be American civilians... You don't see me arguing about the civil rights of Johnny Walker Lindh, who was captured on a battlefield armed fighting American soldiers. I'm not suggesting we hamstring the military as we do with the ROE in the sandbox today... Only that we follow our Constitution and the rules of war we have legally agreed to abide by.

Johnny Walker was a fine and dandy legitimate target. The only reason he wasn't killed is because he surrendered like the coward he is. Once in custody he gets his due process. However, up to that point he is a combatant, and a valid target whether he's holding an AK or eating boiled goat meat on the side of a mountain.

I understand laws of war and ROE just fine. There are plenty of dead enemy that we killed who weren't fighting at the time they were shot. You don't have to wait for them to pick up a gun and start shooting at you before you can kill them. Just because a restrictive ROE say not to, that doesn't mean it's illegal or a war crime.