First Black Rifle...

[Guest nowheretobefound]

I am looking to purchase an AR type rifle. I've never had an AR besides the little ol' S&W M&P 15-22. I am currently looking at a Bushmaster A3 in .223. I can get it at my local shop for $1,100. Is this a good gun/price? I want it for sport shooting and maybe the occasional coyote within 100 yards or so. I have several bolt and semis but have been wanting one of these forever.

From your stated purpose I'd tell you to pick up the least expensive (consider used also) mil-spec AR you can find. Shoot it, learn about them and down the road decide if you want anything more from one.

[alwaysonjohn]

my department has bushmasters too (with a 1:9 twist which is probably why our ammo is 55gr), but with that said you can carry your own if you qualify. Is this just going to be a training rifle to learn from or will this eventually be a patrol rifle? Did you pick a red dot yet? I'm using an Aimpoint PRO, but i am starting to like a buddy's Micro T-1 since its smaller. The Eotechs are more popular in the department. I use a BCM EAG Tactical upper myself, but that upper gets pretty heavy which is another thing to think about. Looking for a used AR is also something to think about, you can get a good deal in the bst section for red dots also so check there often.

[alwaysonjohn]

if you really want a sport, get one from budspolicesupply.com and use D&T for a cheap transfer. they have some in stock for $555. You just have to e-mail them a picture of your badge and id to confirm you qualify.

[glowdotGlock]

Well.....I just bought one.. ..a Rock River tactical operator II. Lemme' have it.

[Erik88]

I finally found a Sport today at Personal Defense off of Watt Rd in Farragut. I didn't get the amazing deal I was hoping for but I am confident the Sport will do everything I need it to at a price that doesn't break the bank.

[alwaysonjohn]

glowdotglock: is the barrel marked 1/9? If it is just remember you can shoot 77 grain (though i wouldn't make a habit out of it), but it won't stabilize and accuracy over 100 yards will suffer. but if you're shooting with your buddies you will be fine. I love the quad rail and it looks like you are set, other than an optic and rounds.

[Caster]

Buffalo biscuits! I have a 1/9 bolt action that will eat anything you feed it. 40g to 80g. With a 73g Amax or a 75g HPBT it groups tighter than anything I've ever owned.

I actually have more accuracy woes from a 1/7 AR15 with heavier bullets than the 1/9 CZ.

I wanted to shoot heavier bullets so I drank the 1/7 twist Koolaid. Waste of time on my part. A 1/9 twist in a quality, well made barrel will shoot just about anything well.

[alwaysonjohn]

how far were you shooting it caster?

[glowdotGlock]

It's 1/9 twist. I haven't had time to take it out yet but will tomorrow probably.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Slower twists for a given bullet tend to increase accuracy over faster twists. If you look at the benchrest crowd they almost always use a twist that barely stabilizes the bullet they are using. Just because a 7 twist barrel shoots 77 grain bullets doesn't mean it is ideal.

I recommend 9 twist 90% of the time for AR owners. The reason is it will shoot 99% of the bullets the average AR owner is going to shoot which is either 55 grain or 62 grain bullets. The 8 twist will shoot 100% of the bullets that can be fed from a magazine. The other 10% that I recommend 7 twist to are those that are building a long range AR with a LONG barrel to shoot HEAVY bullets with no intention of shooting lightweight bullets.

If you have a short barreled 7 twist gun you have the worst of all worlds. Too short of a barrel to get the MV you need for the bullet to fragment in the target and too fast of a twist for the bullet to tumble once it hits the target. At least with everything that would feed from a magazine. The 62 grain bullet when fired out of a 7 twist gun will not tumble at any velocity. At closer ranges the velocity will cause the intregrity of the bullet to fail and fragment. But that is with ranges inside of 200 yards with a 62 grain bullet. Beyond that and there is not enough velocity for the bullet to fragment. It is generally accepted that a FMJ bullet will not fragment below 2,600-2,700 fps. Now modern designs can help some.

And when you are spinning a bullet faster than it needs to be then even the smallest imperfection gets magnified compared with a slower twist. Think of it like an out of balance tire, the slower you go the less noticeable it is but increase the RPM's and it gets worse. This is what happens when you over spin bullets as well as the fact centrifugal force can rip the jacket from the core if RPM's get too high.

Dolomite

[alwaysonjohn]

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/503947_AR15_Ammo_Forum_FAQ.html glowdotglock: if you get bored look at #7 Also, if you get bored read the ammo oracle #2 but that will be several pages.

dolomite: Yes, for benchrest you wan to get the slowest twist rate that stabilizes the bullet. owners of 1/9 barrels have had problems with 75 and 77 grain. as ar15 says it could depend on the length of the bullet among other factors.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Bullet length has nearly everything to do with it. The reason why we went to 7 twist in the first place was to stabilize 63 grain tracers which are at least 1/4" long than standard 62 grain pills.

Stabilizing a 77 grain bullet in a 9 twist has to do with velocity and how they are constructed. The ones with polymer tips are shorter, as far as determining length for proper twist, than all metal ones. It also depends on the barrel itself. It seems some barrels tolerate heavier bullets than they should which is why Caster can shoot 77's out of his CZ with great success. I am sure it also depends on jacket thickness because jacket material is lighter than the lead core.

I am not saying all 9 twist barrels will stabilize all 77 grain bullets but with a barrel that tolerates heavy bullets and a bullet that has a polymer tip shoot 77 grain bullets, and doing it accurately, is completely possible. Velocity has a lot to do with it as well. A 9 twist will stabilize a 77 grain bullet at 2,800 fps better than one leaving the muzzle at say 2,400 fps.

A slower twist also increases velocity as well as increases barrel life. There are plenty of reasons not to over spin your bullets.

Dolomite

[RWF]

Caster,

sounds like you have a great gun, but have a question. don't factory loaded 80 grain or handloaded 90's have to have specialty throated barrel?

i have not had or heard of anyone having a great range of bullets at all ranges, but all 223 or 5.56 i know myself, are AR's or savage. maybe CZ is the way to go on a bolt gun.

[glowdotGlock]

I've really been taking in what everyone has to say. Y'all really know your stuff. I may just be and AR fan for life now. I took the new one out Saturday to our Dept.'s range and one of the deputies/range officers wanted to shoot it. He shot from a bench at about 35 yards with the iron sights and it was dead on from out of the box. I put about 15 through it from the same distance in about a 5" group. We were using dept. issue 55 grn Federal tactical ammo. I was mistaken in an earlier post. It will be used as a patrol rifle. I tried one of the guy's eotech and really like them. So i guess my $250 budget will have to be stretched a little bit.

Edited June 25, 2012 by glowdotGlock

[Guest Victor9er]

I've really been taking in what everyone has to say. Y'all really know your stuff. I may just be and AR fan for life now. I took the new one out Saturday to our Dept.'s range and one of the deputies/range officers wanted to shoot it. He shot from a bench at about 35 yards with the iron sights and it was dead on from out of the box. I put about 15 through it from the same distance in about a 5" group. We were using dept. issue 55 grn Federal tactical ammo. I was mistaken in an earlier post. It will be used as a patrol rifle. I tried one of the guy's eotech and really like them. So i guess my $250 budget will have to be stretched a little bit.

If you're going to stretch your optic budget to what an EoTech costs, take a look at the Aimpoints while you're at it. Their battery life is unmatched and they are one of the most durable and reliable brands out there. I just got an Aimpoint PRO for mine and I really like it so far, you might be happy with that one without feeling like you need to break the bank. The Micro T1 is a popular model but it will cost you a little bit more $$$.

There's a torture test video for the Daniel Defense M4, and while the test is supposed to show how durable the rifle is, there's an Aimpoint optic (micro T1) attached that gets put through everything that they do to the rifle. It's pretty impressive that after everything they did to it it not only still worked, but held zero also. (It finally lost zero on the final test, when they dropped it out of a helicopter... but it was still working!)

Edited June 25, 2012 by Victor9er

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would avoid Eotech unless you absolutely have your heart set on the reticle. I have seen more of those die or loose zero than any other optic. It was literally 1/10 that would become unserviceable. Then there is the battery life issue. Even when off the batteries seem to die within 3 months. And when used regualrly they last about a month. I will say their is not a better reticle for NV use. Not just the reticle but also how clean the reticle looks through the NV scope.

Aimpoints are great as well but they are not without their flaws either. But they do have batteries that last for years. And to be honest the flaws they have have nothing to do with durability or quality like the Eotech. With an Aimpoint you will have to adjust the dot intensity based on where you are about to go. But they are without a doubt one of the more durable full size red dots out there.

Now when selecting a red dot the biggest requirement for me now is has to have an auto adjusting reticle intensity based on ambient lighting. All too often I would find myself either pushing the up or down buttons or turning the knob on an optic when going into or out of a dark area. And if you forget you either have a ballooned reticle or one washed out by the sun. Once I had that happen a few times I realized there had to be something better. And even if you have the intensity set right the second you hit your flashlight the dot might get washed out.

I now have, and have ahd for a very long time, a Burris Fastfire and a Millet Zoom Dot. Both have auto adjusting reticle intensities. I bought eh Zoom Dot in 2006 and the Fastfire in 2008.

The Fastfire has battery life that is mearured in years off a single $1 battery. It zeroes easy and stays zeroed. I think the dot is either 2 or 4 MOA and is easily seen. And if you get a Fastfire make sure to get he picatinny protector. They are steel wings to protect the optic and I am sure I would have destroyed the Fastfire by now had I not had the picatinny protector. It isn't that the Fastfire is fragile but that I am hard on my stuff. It also has an on/off switch but I never use it and as I said the abtteries last eyars. I bought it in 2008 and 1 year later in 2009 I swapped the factory battery out for a new batteries. And about 3 months ago I waspped that battery out for the one in my wife's car door clicker. The only thing I do not like about the Fastfire is the nighttime performance. In complete darkness the reticle flickers because of the power saving mode. It is not abd but for some it can be annoying.

The Millet Zoom dot is a little different. It is about the size of an Aimpoint and IMHO a better optic. It uses a solid state wafer for the electronics so there are no wires to wiggle loose. And if something does go wrong all you do is swap the wafer out. I have yet to hear of one going bad though. It also has the auto intensity and it works great, no flickering lie the Fastfire. One thing I do like about the Zoom Dot is teh knob on the side doesn't control intensity, it controls the dot size. It can adjust from 1 MOA to 10 MOA with about 3/4 turn of the knob. This makes those longer shots easier because the dot does not cover up the target like some red dots do. It is a very durable scope. I used it overseas anf it never lost aero or quit functioning. Another thing I like about it is the adjustments are not click adjustable, they are friction. SO where some scope you get and impact that is either to the left or the right of zero this Zoom Dot has infinite adjustments. The battery life also seems very long. Although I have not measured it with NEW batteries the new ones that are in there now have been in there for at least a year.

Bushnell now makes the Zoom Dot and they run about $250. When I bought mine it was right at $400 and that was because they had just been released.

Another great optic maker for the money is the Vortex. The make a SPARC which is like the Aimpoint T1 series and the Strikefire which is like the AImoint except with a twist. The Strikefire is liek an Aimpoint with the up/down and NV controls like an Eotech. The Strikefires run about $175 and the SPARC runs about $200. I would feel comfortable relying on both to save my life after I put a few hundred rounds down range with them.

Also, most of the small red dots like the Fastfire will have the auto adjusting reticle be it the Leupold, Docter, Trijicon or any of the others. I will say do not buy any that are not brand name. I bought a Chinese knockoff once on a whim and the battery life was less than 24 hours. And the lens was very fargile.

And as I said before if you want to talk I can PM you my number. As anyone who has talked to me can say, I love talking guns as well as anything gun related.

Dolomite

[glowdotGlock]

I just got in. I bought one today. I got the eotech 512 just because I got an ok deal. I liked the one my Sargent had on his rifle. He had a much nicer one but I did like the reticle. I really wasn't meaning to buy one today but I found this one and decided to go with it. I have heard about the battery life not being so great but I do like that it takes AA. I have those around all the time. I'm gonna take it out this weekend to zero it.

Edited June 25, 2012 by glowdotGlock

[Caster]

I have the same Eotech on one of m AR's. I keep a couple of packs of Lithium Energizer batteries for emergency use and a couple pairs of GOOD rechargeables. They'll pay for themselves quick.

[alwaysonjohn]

you get to use bipods? You may want to look at the vertical grips with built-in bipods although the bipods don't work as well. Don't forget to save up for a light, case, 5 pmags, and a sling (check out the patrol vest sling that attaches to body armor from Urban ERT).

Edited June 25, 2012 by alwaysonjohn

[glowdotGlock]

We can use them. I have looked at a few online. I am gonna order a pressure switch for one of the flashlights I already have. It just uses the 30mm rings so I can pick those up at a show or shop and the pressure switch is only around $20. I'm not sure if I like the grip/bipod or just a plain vertical grip. I probably won't put a bipod on the carbine upper. I am hopping to buy a 20-22" barrel upper with the stainless bull barrel before this winter for coyote hunting. That way I could have my hunting upper with my Pro-Staff 4-16x50 on it and put a bipod on there too.

[alwaysonjohn]

for a plain vertical grip look at tango down with the built in pressure switch pockets. They hold the switches a little easier. or if you don't want a pocket, the tango down stubby is pretty nice too.

[glowdotGlock]

Thanks. Will do. It will be a couple weeks. Gotta recoup some funds. I have my eye on a few things.