First Black Rifle...

[glowdotGlock]

Smith and Wesson should send y'all a commission : ) I have been looking at review after about the sport after dolomite's recommendation. I am going to call my shop today to see if/when they can get it. Thanks so much for the input. I feel good knowing that some of y'all have had good experiences with it.

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[kwe45919]

No doubt, hands down the best "black rifle" out there for the money for first timers that's prebuilt with what you NEED....

[Oh Shoot]

... that would be a good way to try one out without dropping 1000k plus. ...

I'd expect a lot from any million dollar rifle!

I also have a Sport -- I have no more accurate rifle, nary a hiccup on everything I've fed it. Added quick release cheapo scope and Dolomite's trigger job. Other than that I intend to keep it just as basic as it is. Really, no kidding, seriously.

- OS

Edited June 21, 2012 by OhShoot

[Dolomite_supafly]

I'd expect a lot from any million dollar rifle!

I also have a Sport -- I have no more accurate rifle, nary a hiccup on everything I've fed it. Added quick release cheapo scope and Dolomite's trigger job. Other than that I intend to keep it just as basic as it is. Really, no kidding, seriously.

- OS

I thought you said you were going to keep it completely stock. Now you have gone and added QD mounts for your scope. I knoww you say you are done and I am sure you mean it,

Dolomite

[kwe45919]

I also have a Sport -- I have no more accurate rifle, nary a hiccup on everything I've fed it. Added quick release cheapo scope and Dolomite's trigger job. Other than that I intend to keep it just as basic as it is. Really, no kidding, seriously.

- OS

I thought you said you were going to keep it completely stock. Now you have gone and added QD mounts for your scope. I knoww you say you are done and I am sure you mean it,

Dolomite

I think he needs some type of muzzel device.....really, no kidding, seriously.

[RWF]

well i know there will be hell to pay and everyone has there own idea's about everything and you can find on the web info to support about anything. not saying there is anything right or wrong. accurate is to me in the mind of the shooter. like some may say that a 3 MOA group is good and another just plain bad.

i myself have never since or heard until now of any 77 grain bullet grouping out of a 1 X 9 which it may do at 100. i know of only of one person who even tried a 75 hornady out of a 1 x 9 and the pictures i saw of his groups at 100 were great! (20") but when it came time to put up or shut up at distance his ablity to hit targets fail off a lot. i like the 1 x 7 NOT BECAUSE the armed forces use it, because i do use a 77 bullet for distance there is just lots less to think about.. i go out of my way to make sure my AR's are not tact cool or like they be long in the service. and yes i did right at 15 years.

i also thought the basic M & P sport was a 1 x 8, but i do not kept up with it.

the chamber discription was great, but with that said i have also seen the people have the most trouble with wydle, most were reloads i believe, and the round would be stuck and the rifle butt would have to slamed on the ground to removed the round. no fault of the gun most of time in mind.

in the small circle that i play in JP is by far the most used rifle/upper there standard is the 1 x 8. but JP is alot more $ than talked about here. no i do not have one but have shot them and there upper end is the only recoiless AR style i have fired. again $

anyway just a no body, again have fun and be safe.

[Steelharp]

Guess I know what I'm saving up for now.

[babelt]

I'd expect a lot from any million dollar rifle!

I also have a Sport -- I have no more accurate rifle, nary a hiccup on everything I've fed it. Added quick release cheapo scope and Dolomite's trigger job. Other than that I intend to keep it just as basic as it is. Really, no kidding, seriously.

- OS

Haha I didn't catch that. I was still half asleep this morning when I wrote that! lol

[alwaysonjohn]

For starting with a carbine length I always recommend going with a Colt 6920. That is the gun that all guns are compared to. If Milspec is considered the bare minimum, then why would folks recommend a gun that is not even Milspec?

Some things to keep in mind with the sport:

• 5R Rifling is a marketing gimmick as confirmed by those at Krieger. Go to their website to learn how they did not find any differences in their Oberymeyer approved 5-R rifling and their normal 6 groove rifling. The hype comes from a few folks that claim "its logically easier to clean" and the groves are "strategically alligned to never fall opposite to another groove" to make it more accurate. However winners of precision matches have won with just about every rifling ever made including 3 groove barrels from Lilja.
  
• The melonite coated barrel is a small advantage over manganese phosphate, but the jury is still out on how much of a difference in logical wear and tear (who actually is going to shoot over 100k rounds) and if it effects the accuracy of the gun (just like any lining would effect the accuracy of the gun).
  
• Twist rates are important as Dolomite explained, but 1in7 is the most popular for ARs since most people shoot between 55 and 77 grain. I like buying the 62 grain penetrator rounds off the internet in 420 round cases on stripper clips.
  
• Resale value? Not that you will ever resell your AR, but Colt is a name that everyone likes and it will keep its value.
  
• No Forward assist
  
• No Dust Cover
  
• The finish of the barrel looks different
  
• Magpul BUIS versus real IRON sights
  
• Regular Feed Ramps vs m4 feed ramps
  
• Commercial Tube vs milspec tube
  
• Castle Nut not staked (easy fix, but still)
  
• No MP Testing on Barrel plus its 4140 steel (cheaper steel that has a melonite finish)
  
• No chrome lining on bore or chamber (yes you can still chrome line underneath melonite). Other parts in the gun have been chrome-line as milspec requires though (gas key and bolt carrier)
  

I know the Colt cost more, but for the above listed reasons it’s the bare minimum I would recommend unless this gun is just going to be shot for fun a few days a year and sit in the safe the remainder. I hope this would never be a duty rifle.

As far as chambering and short/long throats, that is something I am studying as I will be getting my custom 308 chambered soon. When you reload you can really play with custom throat lengths and bullet loading, but most folks wouldn't want to get stuck shooting with just custom reloaded ammo. Pretty much like Dolomite said a long throat means more fps since the bullet has no resistance for a longer time, a shorter throat hits the rifling sooner which slows down the bullet and creates a loss in fps (but supposed greater accuracy due to hitting the rifling sooner). If anything is incorrect about the sport in this post please feel free to correct.

Edited June 22, 2012 by alwaysonjohn

[Dolomite_supafly]

Actually the more resistance the higher the velocity. I now it sounds counterintuitive to everything logical but it is true. The key to velocity is pressure. The more pressure the more velocity. I know if I load into the throat on my bolt guns the velocity increases but when I have a jump the velocity goes down.

As far as accuracy from the 5R, it has more to do with the individual barrel and how it is made than the type of rifling. But the 5R barrels are sought after for a reason. I have never used one and like my standard rifling but those who use the 5R barrels seem to think they shoot better.

Also, just because something isn't milspec doesn't mean it is junk, just means it doesn't meet the criteria for the military's standard for that item. Magpul magazines are NOT milspec. Noveske barrels are NOT milspec. Monolithic uppers are NOT milspec. The majority of muzzle brakes and flash hiders out there are NOT milspec. The majority of the furniture for AR's is NOT milspec. The majority of BUIS's are NOT milspec. And the list goes on and on. But as I said milspec is the minimum standard for the military and doesn't means something is junk because it isn't milspec.

I have a problem with manufactuers claiming something is built to milspec standards when in reality they are not. And any maker out there can say it is even though it isn't and as long as the military isn't the buyer they have done nothing wrong legally. And I honestly believe there are makers who intentionally mislead people by using the milspec term. Also what is funny is the mispec standard for government rifles is not public knowledge, only those who actually HAVE a government contract to produce them have the milspec "technical data package" in writing. And any maker who is going to use the TDP must sign a non disclosure agreement before receiving it. All other makers making guns to "milspec" are just guessing. And there are very few who have the TDP, Colt, FN and now Remington. And as a matter of fact Colt is no longer the supplier of M-4's to the government, Remington beat them, as well as 4 other bidders, in the recent contract bid for 24,000 rifles. So we are about to see Remington be the gun our troops are carrying rather than Colt.

There are probably 10x the stocks out there for commercials tubes than for milspec tubes. Now granted a milspec tube can take either but the commercial stuff on a milspec tube will be a little loose. I am no engineer but I do believe a larger OD tube (commercial) is stronger than a thinner (milspec) tube roviding the wall thicknesses are the same. It is all semantics anyways realistically neither of them are weak enough to be an issue.

As far as resale all the Sport rifles I have seen sell in the last 6 months have brought more then the purchase price. Now that may not be the case when the supply cathces up with demnd but I do not see that happening for at least a year, maybe longer.

Having a castle nut not staiked just makes life easier. Almost everyone wants to put a sling plate on their gun and with a staked castle nut it can be a huge PITA to loosen the nut. Not sure if that is why they don't stake them but I would like to hope so.

Feed ramps are not that big of a deal. The military did fine without them for decades. Barrel material is irrelevent with the melonite treatment. People love and rely on the Magpul isghts every day.

And there are thousands of commercial Colt AR's out ther that DO NOT meet milspec standards. Every single large pin Colt AR is not milspec. And I do believe milspec for the FCG pins is .155" but a lot of rifles that Colt made commercially have .170" pins to prevent installation of FA parts. Check your rifle's FCG pins and if they are .170" then your Colt isn't milspec. And along with Colt's choice to use .170" FCG pins came a huge reduction in the selection of aftermarket triggers and hammers available. '

I am not saying the Sport is the greatest AR out there. I am saying for the money it is the greatest AR out there.

Dolomite

[Steelharp]

Dolomite for the win.

Again.

[Guest Victor9er]

I can't vouch for the Sport model itself, but I do have a M&P 15 and a couple of things I'll throw in...

- The tube on mine is milspec

- The castle nut on mine is staked... twice

- AFAIK all the M&P's have M4 feed ramps

As for the Magpul flipup sights, they may not be made of IRON but they are very durable and reliable for what they are. Unless he's going to be dragging his gun around through the jungles or mountains he's not going to have any problems with them... besides, if he really wants IRON sights he can replace it easily enough.

Edit to add: The Colt 6920 happens to come with the exact same Magpul flipup sights

Edited June 22, 2012 by Victor9er

[babelt]

How do I tell if my tube on my sport is commercial or milspec, and by the way the castle nut on mine is staked colt fanboy. I understand you like the colts, but dont try to talk someone out of buying a sport when you have never shot one.

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[Johnny Rotten]

And as a matter of fact Colt is no longer the supplier of M-4's to the government, Remington beat them, as well as 4 other bidders, in the recent contract bid for 24,000 rifles. So we are about to see Remington be the gun our troops are carrying rather than Colt.

Dolomite

Yeah that sucked but Colt got the 240 Bravo contract instead....

My vote is 6920,6940, I have both.

And very soon I'll have a new 901

[kwe45919]

Thats the thing....most of us will never see any type of hard core battle anyways. I'd even fare to say that unless WW3 erupts most everyone's "cheap" AR will last a life time. Also remember, most people will sell or put thier rifle in the safe and buy something they deem better if they like the AR platform....

Edited June 22, 2012 by kwe45919

[Guest Victor9er]

I'll also add that many LEO's use the M&P-15 as their duty rifles every day. Hell, that's what it was desiged for...

How do I tell if my tube on my sport is commercial or milspec, and by the way the castle nut on mine is staked colt fanboy. I understand you like the colts, but dont try to talk someone out of buying a sport when you have never shot one.

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Measure the diameter:

Edited June 22, 2012 by Victor9er

[alwaysonjohn]

VICTOR9ER: I'll also add that many LEO's use the M&P-15 as their duty rifles every day. Hell, that's what it was desiged for...

I haven't met one cop using a M&P sport. There are many other better S&W M&P ARs that are made a ton better, the sport was a model that cut costs which is what the buyer should be aware of. The cheapest AR (aka entry level) I recommend is the 6920, that doesn't make me a colt fanboy and I don't currently own one. I personally like Bravo Company/spikes and some higher end rifles (noveske, lwrc, etc), but as for the bottom end lets atleast have a standard and the sport does not cut it for me.

The 5r hype has died and people have gone back to the 4 groove, 3 groove, and 6 groove. The 5r is not a negative, but its not a plus either. Most barrels are sought because of who makes them: Noveske for ARs, Bartlein Krieger Lilja Obermeyer for Precision

KRIEGER: The Obermeyer 5-Râ„¢ style rifling is simply a different style of rifling that has a more 'ramped', or angled transition from the groove to the land and back down from the land to the next groove. Our conventional 4 groove rifling has nearly parallel sides to the groove. The internet is full of information describing perceived benefits to the 5-Râ„¢ rifling over conventional styles, but most of this is comparing "apples to oranges" as they are usually comparing one manufacturer's "non 5-Râ„¢" to a different manufacturer's "5-Râ„¢" barrels. We have honestly seen no significant differences in accuracy or performance between the two styles of rifling when comparing our barrels.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/5_R_Rifling-c1246-wp6676.htm

Edited June 22, 2012 by alwaysonjohn

[Guest bkelm18]

I haven't met one cop using a M&P sport which was the point of my post. There are many other better S&W M&P ARs that are made a ton better, the sport was a model that cut costs which is what the buyer should be aware of. The cheapest AR I recommend is the 6920, that doesn't make me a colt fanboy and I don't currently own onee. I personally like Bravo Company/spikes and some higher end rifles (noveske, etc), but as for the bottom end lets atleast have a standard and the sport does not cut it for me.

Who said anything about using what police or military use? We're talking about good entry level ARs. For the money, you can't beat the Sport. Not everyone can afford top tier ARs as their first.

Edited June 22, 2012 by bkelm18

[babelt]

I haven't met one cop using a M&P sport. There are many other better S&W M&P ARs that are made a ton better, the sport was a model that cut costs which is what the buyer should be aware of. The cheapest AR (aka entry level) I recommend is the 6920, that doesn't make me a colt fanboy and I don't currently own one. I personally like Bravo Company/spikes and some higher end rifles (noveske, lwrc, etc), but as for the bottom end lets atleast have a standard and the sport does not cut it for me.

The 5r hype has died and people have gone back to the 4 groove, 3 groove, and 6 groove. The 5r is not a negative, but its not a plus either. Most barrels are sought because of who makes them: Noveske for ARs, Bartlein Krieger Lilja Obermeyer for Precision

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/5_R_Rifling-c1246-wp6676.htm

Sorry i forgot you were the subject matter expert in Ar's....oh wait your not! I trust Dolomite, bar none.

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[Dolomite_supafly]

Like I have been saying the Sport is not the best rifle out there. It IS the best rifle for the money.

I think people are thinking I am saying they are the best, they are not. But what they are is the best value in AR's.

If I wanted the best it would be Noveske, DD, BCM, LWRC, as well as a few others.

A person needs to decide what their budget is first and foremost adn that will determine what they get. It is not your need of something that determines whether you get it or not, it is your budget. I think I need a Lambogini but my budget says I can't afford it. Even if you think you need a $2,500 AR it is your budget that will determine whether you will get it or not. Not everyone can afford a $2,500+ AR, I know I can't, and for those who can't an $800 AR will work just fine for them.

Dolomite

[alwaysonjohn]

I am not dissing Dolomite, he's helped me out in the past (recently on disassembling a 1911), the main point we disagree on is what features should be in an entry level gun. I personally don't like the sport for some features that are missing. It's pros are that it is reliable as long as you take care of it, S&W is a good company and they will stand behind their products, and they have been found as cheap as $600. With that said, you need to know why it is an entry level. If you are going to list pros then list some cons too so they can decide. Some items you can't upgrade on an AR without spending a significant amount of cash. I forget that most people here are recreational shooters though that will be happy if the ar goes bang every time, I just don't want to give them the impression that there $600 AR can compete with higher end ARs. Also, I have never considered a thread complete if everyone agrees on one starter AR, that's just not fair since he should be searching the internet comparing ARs for the next two weeks while he scavenges enough money to get one and some bullets to go shoot.

Thanks dolomite for the latest post to explain for me... And yes, I agree that its a heck of a gun for $600.

[RWF]

I'll also add that many LEO's use the M&P-15 as their duty rifles every day. Hell, that's what it was desiged for...

Measure the diameter:

nice picture, both work great! i will tell you, first hand; it's a true pain only when you believe your buffer tube is mil-spec and order a new stock and it does not fit! and yes it true just because they claim mil-spec does not make it so.

as a note most hi end stuff tends to be proprietary, even Para was when were making ZM's rifle.

also were are the "finished pics" of your AR?

Edited June 22, 2012 by RWF

[alwaysonjohn]

Here are some youtube videos on the 6920 which was in the $1000 price range from the OP

From Hickok45 (fellow Clarksvillian, make sure you subscribe to his channel to help him out!) BTW he put on a bump fire stock in the beginning! Using a SP6920 AKA Sporter

Using a LE6920 AKA Law Enforcement Only (that they sell to anyone)

If you save a little more you can get into Daniel Defense M4s, for a while I wanted a V5LW. Local dealers have cheaper prices than what you will see on their website.

BCM (Bravo Company) quit selling complete guns to the public but you can buy seperate uppers and lowers. Spikes tactical also makes some cheaper end models that are really nice.

[Dolomite_supafly]

One of the biggest criticisms of the Sport is the lack of forward assist and ejection port cover. Those items are easily replaced because the Sport is built to the same specs as every other AR out there.

For under $200, including labor, you can replace the upper receiver with this features. Then you can sell your old upper for $50-$75 to offset the cost.

Other than that I would say it is a gun I could trust after running a few hundred rounds down the tube.

Most people choose their first AR based on their budget. And I will say that you need to buy the best you can afford.

Alwaysonjohn makes a bunch of great points and all are valid. But for the budget minded person wanting to get into the AR game it is hard to beat the Sport.

Dolomite

[glowdotGlock]

I've decided on about 1,000-1,200 on the rifle and around 250 for some sort of optics. My dealer can order it and i am financing it so upfront cost is not much of an issue. I've bought several that way. It won't be a duty rifle either. Our department has Bushmaster.

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