First Black Rifle...

[glowdotGlock]

I am looking to purchase an AR type rifle. I've never had an AR besides the little ol' S&W M&P 15-22. I am currently looking at a Bushmaster A3 in .223. I can get it at my local shop for $1,100. Is this a good gun/price? I want it for sport shooting and maybe the occasional coyote within 100 yards or so. I have several bolt and semis but have been wanting one of these forever.

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[Dolomite_supafly]

You cannot beat the Sport from S&W.

I will just give you a quick run down of the Sport and why it is such a great gun.

1. The barrel is a 5R rifled barrel.

5R barrels are known for their accuracy regardless of caliber. For whatever reason they just shoot and shoot well. It also increases the velocity by virtue of how the rifling is laid out.

2. The barrel is Melonite treated.

Melonite treatments are far better than any chrome lining as far as hardness and durability. It also offers an exception amount of corrosion resistance. It is more than just a surface coating like chrome, it actually treats the metal and goes subsurface.

3. The bolt is properly heat treated.

This is very important for the long term durability of the firearm. It ensures the headspace will remain in spec longer than those bolts that are not heat treated properly. Poorly heat treated bolts will either wear prematurely or break from being too brittle.

4. It has a barrel twist rate of 8

This twist rate allows you to fire the heaviest bullets that can be fed from a magazine, up to 80 grains. And because it isn't a 7 twist (like most others out there) you can also fire the lightweight varmint style bullets without fear of the jackets seperating.

5. It comes ready to fire.

It comes with a Magpul rear sight while most competitors, even those 100's of dollars more expensive, do not. The sights have been proven for several years now both by those in harms way as well as the weekend shooter. It also includes a Magpul magazine which has also been proven for seveal years now.

6. It is built to the same specs as all other AR's

This means you can upgrade and swap parts to build a gun that suits your wants or needs. And because it is an AR most of the work can be done by the owner and if it is a milspec part it WILL fit.

7. The price

In reality if any other maker were to offer the same features as the Sport has they would be asking 100's of dollars more. The 5R barrel and Melonite treatment were once only offered on high end guns. And included in the price is a warranty that is among the best in the industry.

And if I were in the market for one I would buy a Sport. The Bushmasters are fine but the Sport has better features and costs 1/3 less.

Dolomite

[RWF]

it is all up to you, the choices are endless. if you do not see something you like, make it yourself. it is far worse than buying a car. and with thousands of ideas what makes a good AR.

my big thing is the twist rate.

but no issue for a coyote at 100, 200 whatever. good luck and have fun.

[glowdotGlock]

Thanks guys. There are too many options. I would like to build one someday. I wanted to buy a complete gun and get familiar with it though. Why can't Glock not make rifles? : )

[glowdotGlock]

I just went and checked out the rifles at S&W and I kinda like this one. I don't know why I never considered S&W.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764994_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

[Dolomite_supafly]

I just went and checked out the rifles at S&W and I kinda like this one. I don't know why I never considered S&W.

http://www.smith-wes...playErrorView_Y

Trying to figure out what the extra $400 is getting you over the Sport. The Sport comes WITH sights and this one does not.

Also, chrome lining is not as good as melonite. The surface treatment is not as good as melonite. The 5R barrel is known to be more accurate than any other type of rifling and the Sport comes standard with the 5R barrel.

The only thing this gun has over the Sport is a forward assist and the ejection port cover. Honestly you will probably never use them. But if you decide you must have them you can have a new upper receiver swapped in for $100 in parts and less than $100 in labor.

So for under $900 you can have a gun that is leaps and bounds about the one you linked.

Again the gun you linked should cost less than the Sport. Then on top of that you are going to have to spend another $100 just to fire your first shot because it doesn't come with sights.

It is your money and you are going to get what you want but as far as the best value the Sport cannot be beat by anything on the market. And one more thing the Sports tend to keep their value and even command more in most cases upon resale.

Dolomite

[Guest bkelm18]

If you're not picking up what Dolomite is putting down, you should look into the Sport. Dolomite knows a thing or two about AR's.

I'm personally in the black rifle market myself. The Sport is near the top of the list.

[RWF]

maybe he is a lefty. but like said it is what you want and another side note if the model you pick has the option for a mid lengh gas system, go with that.

[Guest Victor9er]

+1 on the S&W, I'd take it over a Bushmaster anyday.

I know the Sport is a great value, but personally I like having the dust cover and the forward assist. Up to you though. FWIW the new versions of the M&P-15T also have the melonite coated barrel. It also comes with a 10" free-floating quadrail and flip-up BUIS installed. Depending on what you're looking for that is.

FWIW I recently bought the M&P-15OR and I'm in the process of making some mods to it. Should be finished up here soon... at least enough to post some updated pics on it. Bottom line though, make sure you get what you want. While the melonite coating is nice, top quality guns have been using chrome lined barrels for a long time so there's nothing wrong with getting one of those. I know Dolomite is all over the melonite bandwagon these days and he can be pretty persuasive

Get what you want and you'll be happy with it, you can't go wrong with one of the S&W's though they are good guns.

edit to add link:

(M&P-15T)

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_786010_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Edited June 21, 2012 by Victor9er

[~48_South~]

I kid you not I have bought 2 Bushmasters in my life,both brand new, and both didnt work properly when I got home. My first Bushmaster was an AR15 it malfunctioned on round 29 and had to be sent off for repairs, after that I swore Bushmaster off for years but recently decided to give them another shot so I bought a Enhanced ACR, the ACR had to be sent back immediately due to malfunctions as well. Maybe Im just cursed when it comes to Bushmaster idk.

[TMF]

Hmmm... I've never owned a Bushmaster but have used a lot of them. Seemed like good AR's; real tight fit. From what I've seen the S&W are priced better, but I guess that's where you go.

Did some of those first gen ACRs have issues? I would just figure any new product would have its share of problems. That's why I wait at least half a decade on all new technology.

[glowdotGlock]

I kinda like the sport. I've been reading a few reviews. All good. I see on the website that it's chambered in 5.56. Is 5.56 as easy to find as .223. Sorry to sound ignorant. I'm just used to pistols and wheel guns mostly.

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[Dolomite_supafly]

Bushmaster took a great gun, the Magpul Masada, and re-engineered it into a overweight, unreliable, innaccurate overpriced rifle.

By all accounts the Magpul version was a lot better.

Dolomite

[Guest Victor9er]

I kinda like the sport. I've been reading a few reviews. All good. I see on the website that it's chambered in 5.56. Is 5.56 as easy to find as .223. Sorry to sound ignorant. I'm just used to pistols and wheel guns mostly.

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Basically the same round, slight difference in overall size and pressure... 5.56 is a NATO round. Without going into too much detail you want one that's chambered in 5.56

General rule of thumb is if the barrel is chambered for 5.56 then you're good to shoot either 5.56 or .223 but if the barrel is chambered specifically for .223 only then you shouldn't shoot 5.56 through it.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Victor9er

[Steelharp]

I kinda like the sport. I've been reading a few reviews. All good. I see on the website that it's chambered in 5.56. Is 5.56 as easy to find as .223. Sorry to sound ignorant. I'm just used to pistols and wheel guns mostly.

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You can shoot .223 in a 5.56, but not the other way around. If you get a 5.56, you're good regardless.

[Guest pfries]

You can safely run .223 in a 5.56 chamber but not the other way around. The .223 seem not to be as accurate out of mine as there is movement of the projectile before engaging the rifling.

[glowdotGlock]

Oh ok. Nice. I didn't know that. So pretty much .38 spl is to .357 as .223 is to 5.56.

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[Guest pfries]

Good analogy.

[Oh Shoot]

Oh ok. Nice. I didn't know that. So pretty much .38 spl is to .357 as .223 is to 5.56.

Well, except that .223 is essentially same overall dimensions, speed, and force as 5.56, unlike .38 compared to .357.

Unless ammo money is of little concern, you'll likely shoot a lot of the cheapest .223.

- OS

Edited June 21, 2012 by OhShoot

[glowdotGlock]

I'm glad it will shoot .223. I have 3-4 hundred rounds of it.

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[Dolomite_supafly]

Although it is not recommended I have never heard of a gun chambered in 223 being blown up by a 5.56. The proof loads are well beyond 5.56 pressures. Now over time it may cause wear issues on the bolt lugs or it could, over time, cause a lug to crack.

The biggest difference between the 223 chamber and the 5.56 chamber is the length of the throat. There is ZERO difference dimensionally between the 223 and 5.56 ammunition although the 5.56 has about 10K of extra pressures. The throat allows the extra 10K of pressure to begin to drop before the bullet encounters the resistance of the rifling. This is why factory 5.56 tends to have a higher velocity than factory 223 with the same bullet weights.

In addition to the throat a 5.56 chamber tends to be looser overall to keep dirt and debris from causing a malfunction which is important in a combat enviroment. Now the drawback to a loose chamber is case life tends to be less which is important to reloaders. Also, having a looser chamber may not be as accurate as a tighter chamber. But I think the individual barrel has more affect on accuracy than the difference between a 223 and 5.56 chamber.

I often joke about the 223 chamber being a 5.56 match chamber.

Here is a good drawing of chamber differences:

http://www.ar15barre...ta/223vs556.pdf

Pay attention to the freebore length. This the the throat. And in the world of guns a few thousandths can make or break a gun's accuracy or safety.

With all this talk of 223 being too tight to shoot 5.56 and the 5.56 being too loose to be accurate there is a middle ground. It is called a Wylde chamber. It is basically a hybrid chamber that uses the best of both. It has a tight, yet long, throat like the 223 and this helps accuracy. It also has a loose chamber like the 5.56, which helps reliability. The Wydle chamber is what most national match guns use for competition.

Here is a good chart showing the differences between the different chambers, not just 5.56 vs 223:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

And even different reamer makers have what they think is the best.

Personally if all you plan on shooting is commercial or reloading I would use the 223 chamber. It tends to be more accurate than the 5.56 chamber. Now if you plan on shooting surplus, which is becoming available in Walmart even, then I would get either the 5.56 or the Wylde chamber.

I am going to break it down in a couple of posts. The next post is going to be about twist rates.

Dolomite

[glowdotGlock]

Wow Dolomite. You really know your stuff on AR's. I at first liked the idea of the .223 but now that I know that the 5.56 Willa shoot both, it's a little more appealing since I can shoot both. In a shtf scenario it may be useful I'd think. I'm still studying and doing a lil' homework. I like heating what you have to say because I've never heard it explained that way. Thanks

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[Dolomite_supafly]

Now some information about twist rates. First and foremost I recommend 9 twist for 90% of the shooters out there and you would also be one of the ones I recommend it to.

If you are going to use a faster twist with heavier bullets you need a longer barrel to get your velocity up. The only reason why people are wanting 7 twist barrels is because that is what the military is currently using. It isn't because 7 twist is better than 9 twist. And the biggest reason for the switch to 7 twist is for NATO tracer use and hard target performance.

When you combine a short barrel with heavy bullets you reduce your range substantially because of the reduced velocity. 77 grain bullets are under 2700 fps out of a 16 carbine.

Unless you are exclusively going to be shooting 77+ grain bullets do not get the 7 twist. And if you are you should be using a longer barrel to take full advantage of the heavier bullets. A 9 twist will shoot everything up to 77 grain bullets just fine, actually better if you want terminal performance out of FMJ or target type ammunition. The reason is the bullets are more likely to tumble, increasing their effectiveness. You can take a 9 twist gun and shoot 55 grain FMJ's and those bullets are more likely to tumble and fragment acting like a soft point. Out of a 7 twist gun those same bullets are just going to pass through the target like a 22 lr unless you are at CQB distances.

Tumbling can reduce the velocity needed for fragmentation but if the twist is too fast the bullet will never tumble and in turn never fragment. This is why we are hearing of the problems overseas. We have reduced the barrel length which causes a reduced velocity, on top of that they have increased the twist. The combination of a slower bullet that is spinning faster results in a bullet that is too slow to fragment and spinning too fast to tumble. Which results in a 22 lr type wound.

Also, a 7 twist will not shoot the lightweight varmint type rounds. I know because I have watched them turn into gray mist 25-35 yards out of the muzzle of a 7 twist gun I own.

A 9 twist barrel will shoot 40 grain bullets and all the way up to a 77 grain bullet. A 7 twist barrel will not shoot anything under 50 grains without the risk of the bullet coming apart under its own centrifugal force. And the 8 twist barrel is the best of ALL worlds. It will shoot any weight of bullet that can be fed from the AR magazine.

We never heard of complaints from the military until they shortened the barrel to 14.5" and went to a 7 twist barrel. There is a reason for this.

Here are some interesting reads on the effectiveness of the 5.56:

Do not hot link this but copy and paste it into a new browser to open it:

http://stevespages.com/pdf/5_56mm_military_info.pdf

And as far as penetration goes there is an optimal velocity based on bullet design. But ANY bullet design can over penetrate once you get below a certain velocity. Too fast and penetration is reduced substantially because the bullet comes apart upon impact. Too slow and the bullet will does not come apart and will just pass through the target. Find a place in the middle and the bullet will perform well. Now certain bullet designs, like the Hornady Tap, have a larger span between too fast and too slow.

This is the penetration table based on velocity:

http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg

Notice that some of these bullets penetrate over 5', Yes five FEET!!!. I know these are 30 caliber bullets but physics are the same regardless of caliber.

And if you have any questions feel free to ask. This is a major purchase for most people and you should do the research into what you want and what you are likely going to use it for. I will even give you my number so we can talk if you want.

I am not a dealer and have nothing to sell. I routinely do this for members of the board just to help them out.

Dolomite

Edited June 21, 2012 by Dolomite_supafly

[babelt]

I picked up the M&P Sport a couple of weeks ago as my first black rifle and I couldn't be happier. The reason I choose it was because of Dolomite's approval and the price point. You just can't beat the package of what your getting there. I've put about 120 rounds through mine so far of brass and steal cased ammo and it's run like a top. One other thing I will mention is that it places all of your brass in about a 5 foot circle when you are shooting. IDK if all of the AR's do that but it makes picking your brass up a whole lot better! For a first time gun I would recommend the Sport. Some guys don't like AR's and that would be a good way to try one out without dropping 1000k plus. But I can tell you after trying mine I am an AR guy!

[kwe45919]

I chose to build my first one from parts from friends. With Dolomites help in the long run it now runs like a top. I've put near 500 or so flawless rounds out of mine in both .62gr and 55gr (brass/steel cased) thanks to his knowlege and ability to trouble shoot and fix the issues.

Now, had I really paid attention and not been such a dork forceing my ego to build my first one, I definatly would have flat out bought a S&W Sport. I've now got about $800 into my rifle with all the gear I want and an Aimpoint PRO.....still, I feel I should have just bought a Sport. Nothing wrong with my AR and i's solid, but for my first "just getting into the world of AR's" I should have bought a Sport. Have I said that I should have bought a Sport??

Just get a Sport......if you can find one.