New 9mm - What to Buy?

[greyofk]

@ others very capable 9mm with adjustable sites:

Taurus PT 99

and EAA Witness Match:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/231/products_id/54976/Handguns/European+American+Armory/EAA%20Witness%20Match%209mm%2018+1%20Two%20Tone/

[Parrothead]

Come to NE TN, i'll let you try a Sig 229, G19, G26 and the M&P. I love the glock platform, but i bet you'll go buy the sig.....

[Guest Victor9er]

I would reccomend the Glock route as that is what I have. If you plan to ever CC it I would go for the 17. If it was ONLY a carry gun I would reccomend the 19.

I did succesfully and comfortably carry a 17 before I got the 19.

I will also say I didn't find the 17 to be far more accurate than the 19 so I would choose whichever one feels better in your hand. I'm sure either could be enhanced to your liking with aftermarket accesories.

I have never shot a 34 though so I can't really comment on them. I just don't have a need for that much of a specialty gun.

I would agree with this. The 34 is a bit long for my tastes (a friend of mind had one).

As for "heavy" recoil, I have a G19 and a G22 and my wife actually shoots the .40 better than she does the 9mm! Everyone's different.

[Volzfan]

CZ 75

[SonnyCrockett]

These threads always go haywire......

Whenever someone is ready for a new Pistola and asks for suggestions -

Best advise I can give is to rent em at the range and if your wealthy enough take a few gambles on what you think

looks to trick because guns are personal.....

I never ask a person,I always do my own research because my tastes are always the non popular

http://www.best9mm.com/

A good list to use for reference but just one mans suggestions

Edited June 21, 2012 by SonnyCrockett

[McAllyn]

here is your anti glock post:

The 17 esp, but all glocks in general, have 3 issues that may or may not matter to you in idpa:

lightweight --- the light plastic frame means more felt recoil

grip angle --- at least for me, it adds recoil by pounding the wrists linearly rather than rotationally. It varies for different shooters.

recoil springs --- the +p eating springs of glocks are rather stout/stiff, and while they can handle more powerful loads, they also translate more of the recoil into the shooter before those stiff springs start to collapse and absorb.

All that combines into a gun that kicks fairly hard for a 9mm. Lots of folks have no problems with it, but I find that the 17 kicks so hard that, for IDPA type shooting (rapid double taps), the followup shots are often way off target due to the recoil/jerk of the pistol. It is also easy for a shooter to jam the gun by moving rapidly from target to target (this is a type of limp wrist jam, same thing but different cause).

In short, unless you are quite strong, these pistols make the sport more difficult for the shooter, when compared to a 1911-9mm, a beretta 92, a cz 75, ruger p89, or similar sized heavy guns. Of those, the 92 is the lightest, the cut down slide and light frame being an issue. the 75 comes in many flavors, but you can get a heavy steel one.

So really what I am saying is if you want to play a sport that requires rapid shooting and is scored off your time & accuracy, a heavy recoil pistol is not the #1 choice IMHO. I would recommend any of the big, heavy, gentle guns over the glock for this type of shooting for anyone who is not strong enough to hold a glock still. If you DO like the glock that much and want one, get one of the bigger frames, the 17 is still not ideal for the sport (but the 17 is an excellent carry gun). If you do not care about your score and want a 17, get a 17, of course. Its all about what you want out of the gun and sport, really.

Glock is the #1 production type weapon in the action shooting sports. Definitely in USPSA, haven't checked the numbers in IDPA recently. Simply changing the recoil spring from the factory unit to a lighter one and not using "full-house" Super He-Man American Guns Blow Stuff Up ammunition will make them as easy to control as a 1911 with a cinder block hanging from it.

Mac

ETA: just checked... Glock is #1 and #2 in IDPA

Edited June 21, 2012 by McAllyn

[Jonnin]

Glock is the #1 production type weapon in the action shooting sports. Definitely in USPSA, haven't checked the numbers in IDPA recently. Simply changing the recoil spring from the factory unit to a lighter one and not using "full-house" Super He-Man American Guns Blow Stuff Up ammunition will make them as easy to control as a 1911 with a cinder block hanging from it.

Mac

ETA: just checked... Glock is #1 and #2 in IDPA

Yes. And a couple of the shooters I know have fixed the triggers as well, to remove the takeup or reduce it. They are popular in the sport, for sure. Lack of a safety helps as well, many shooters find the safety adds a delay to their score, and, oddly enough, many shooting sports force use of any safety if the gun has one (even 10 pound pull DA/SA designs), making some models start with a disadvantage.

Ammo that makes power factor (is not weak handloads, in other words) will rock a 17 no matter what spring you put into it. The bigger models are absolutely better about that issue, and clean up nicely if you want to customize one for competition shooting.

Again, if you like them, shoot them, but the OP did ask us to try to convince him to pick something else! Since he asked, I outlined the things that bother me about them that may, or may not, bother him or anyone else.

[southernasylum]

Which trigger do you have on the P229?

I have the standard DA/SA trigger. I like it. The reset is plenty short for me.

[McAllyn]

Without defending one brand over another, I will say, my personal experience has been:

I've never owned or shot a Sig that the trigger didn't feel... "squishy" to me. I've had a P6/225, 226 and 229. None tuned, all box stock base models. Very accurate, but on the "big and heavy" end of the spectrum. Ultimately reliable.

I loved my XD9 and XD9Tac. Very controllable, pretty accurate when they were box stock, but after tuning both ran very well and were very well behaved at speed. Fairly reliable, but seemed to drop off pretty quickly as the weapon got dirty. Perceived that to be higher than other manufacturers.

Both of my Beretta 92's were fantastic machines. Not "custom 1911" accurate, but easily as accurate as I was. One of the heaviest and longest double action trigger pulls of all the top tier manufacturers right out of the box. Drop dead reliable. Not the lightest or smallest thing you'll find for carry. But, hey, Martin Riggs and John McClain can't be wrong, right?

I currently shoot a moderately tuned 34 in USPSA. Shot an untuned 17 for a short time. Prefer the longer sight radius of the 34, although it's rarely necessary (very few long range shots i.e. over 25 yards). Can honestly say I've never had a reliability problem with either one of them that was gun related (only one failure between them, and that was a squib... my fault). I shoot them both fairly accurately, but some people tend to start out low-left with the factory Glock trigger if they are used to anything else.

My S&W M&P 9 Pro was a great weapon. Very accurate, on the high side of reliable, and a decent factory tuned trigger out of the box. I personally didn't care for the grip because even with the changeable backstraps, the front of the grip seemed very thin, but that was after getting used to Berettas and Sigs, which have thicker grips. My ex-wife still shoots and loves this piece.

My CZ SP01 Tactical is a really nice piece also. Boy, is it HEAVY after playing with the tupperware. From the factory, they are terribly over-sprung both on main-spring and recoil spring, but the weight makes them easily manageable. Because mine has a decocker, I can't tune the trigger to Shadow specs, but after about 500 rounds, the factory trigger smoothed itself out to a very comfortable and repeatable level. For an all-around target, plinking, or game gun, this is one of my favourites. Much better DA trigger than the Berettas, in my opinion. As heavy as they are, you could shoot any commercially available load and not be bothered by recoil.

Bottom line, I prefer the striker fired or SAO pistols, especially for gaming. I've never mastered the DA/SA transition. That's a personal thing, and I'm sure I could train out of it, but I don't care to. I've never experienced any issues with 9MM recoil regardless of platform or load. Admittedly, I'm as far from being a small guy as humanly possible, so that might be something, can't say. I tend to believe that recoil control is built from the fundamentals, not strength or size. Accuracy out to 50 yards for a pistol, I'd tend to lean towards a 5" barrel. 25 yards and under, 4" should be fine.

Your mileage may vary.

Mac

[Guest Nikator]

Thanks McAllyn. Very good info there.

[Jonnin]

^^^^

That is a great summary.

I am going to disagree with you on the recoil though. No amount of stance or technique is going to allow someone who does not have the mass and power to hold the gun steady through a shot to do so. There are ways to make the problem worse (agreed!), but at some point, there is nothing that will make it better. I will be a willing observer of whatever stance: the shooter will be performing double taps with the hottest 10mm ammo we can find in the smallest, lightest gun that will fire it to prove the point and a an elderly female shooter will use the points from the demonstration to perform the same feat using the trained stance (and remember that young, strong, trained fbi females could not handle the 10mm) ..... Bottom line is, not everyone can handle every weapon, no matter how good their technique. It just scales. I am a wuss, I guess, but a 9 in a lightweight frame is too much for me to control for rapid fire excersises like these sports.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Jonnin

[Ropin4gold]

I dont like Beretta triggers so I vote glock, unless you can find an old school Sig P228.

[McAllyn]

Since the OP asked specifically about 9MM, I responded with my experiences with those. I've never shot a 10MM, so I can only assume that my splits would be quite a bit different than they are with a 9MM. But yes, I maintain that recoil control is BUILT from the fundamentals.

Mac

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I've also been interested in a Beretta 92 but I'd want the version with adjustable sights.

When I started shooting in late middle age, first 9mm was a worn out beater beretta 92 police trade in that was scratched-up ugly and loose but shot very accurate in my newbie hands. Liked it a lot but was offended by its ugliness at the time, so after awhile traded it for a new inox 92. In retrospect maybe should have kept the beater because the money saved on the trade wasn't that great. OTOH that particular dealer was a real fair fellow, sold me the old police tradein cheap and IIRC gave me the same trade-in value he sold it to me for, and didn't over-charge on the new pistol. But nowadays I'm not so offended by a gun with half the blue worn off, as long as am confident the gun is in good working order.

The new 92 didn't seem as easy to shoot accurate new out of the box though in retrospect that may have been a newb not having good technique and "getting lucky" with the old worn-out specimen. So I put an adjustable rear sight on the new 92 that allowed tweaking the point of aim. The sight has held up well. So a couple of years ago got a second new inox 92 expecting to put an adjustable sight on the new one too, but the new one shot point of aim right out of the box from the get-go, and I decided there wouldn't be any benefit to change the rear sight on the new one.

So maybe most all 92's will shoot close to point-of-aim new out of the box if you do your part, or alternately maybe some of them really do benefit from an adjustable sight. Dunno. Maybe if you get a 92 and it doesn't shoot point of aim it is just a symptom that you need to work on the technique until it does shoot point of aim. Don't know enough to say one way or the other.

I'll never be fast enough to shoot a fast'n'accurate double tap so "getting back on target" fast for a double tap isn't a concern per se. Wrist disease and weakness can make even minor recoil painful. My wrists are old but not real unhealthy yet. I can get hurt by some pistols in other calibers, but haven't had any 9mm that had annoying or painful recoil. Am guessing for a normal strength person with no wrist disease, you would need to buy a tiny light 9mm pistol, preferably with a blowback design, if you want to find one that has enough recoil to be annoying or painful.

As far as "noticing" the recoil, beretta 92 seems least noticeable recoil and not much muzzle flip to me, though it is subjective and maybe everybody judges differently. I like CZ-75/85 a lot and it is a little heavier than a 92, but I "notice" recoil a little more with the CZ than the 92, but not a lot on either pistol. My G17 has more "noticeable" recoil, and the pistol with the most noticeable recoil is a 9mm 1911 that may be heavier than any of the others. The 9mm 1911 isn't painful or strong recoil, but seems to have more muzzle flip than the others. Maybe a tweak of the recoil spring would change that behavior, but it isn't a big enough problem to motivate me to try to "fix". Just interesting that design would have so much more flip.

Kahr P9 is the lightest 9mm I have and it doesn't feel like it has any more recoil than a 92. It doesn't seem to want to jump off target any more than the heavier longer guns. The grip fits my hand as good or better than any of the others. It is thin like a 1911 and my hand can get a real firm hold on that grip, and the grip seems to naturally fit in the hand, not having to practice grabbing the gun "a little different" than it naturally wants to fall into the hand. But I'm not good with DA triggers even if the trigger is real smooth, and I think short sight radius hurts my aim worse than it does some folks. So the P9 is fun and easy to shoot and accurate enough for close range defense but I couldn't use it for a target gun. A fellow with more skill could shoot it more accurately. The accuracy issue is me and not the gun. If I operate the trigger in slow-motion it always shoots true. If I operate the trigger faster, it tends to shoot low. Never shot a stainless "full size" 4 inch barrel Kahr, but if those pistols inherit the advantages of the P9 with even less recoil and a longer sight radius, a fellow who can shoot a smooth DA trigger might be able to drive tacks with one. If they weren't kinda on the expensive side would be tempted to buy a 4" stainless kahr just for curiosity about how it behaves after some practice.

[Guest Nikator]

I stopped by Franklin Gun Shop and handled a few. Great shop. Horribly overpriced.

I'm leaning towards a Sig 2022. Its more than half than a p226 and I don't think I'm good enough to notice a difference. The trigger on the Sigs felt so much better than others I tried.

I also liked the M&P and then the CZ Sp-01.

[Tenifer17]

I say get the Glock 34 . I have one and carry it as a conceal carry gun and it is a range gun . I like the reliability , the rust resistance , the accuracy and the easy of detail stripping it down to it's very few parts. This gun can be taken completely apart in just 2 minutes and be put right back togather.

The rest of the mentioned guns have lots and lots of springs and levers and such . To me that is too much that could go wrong and get dirty . My G34 eays all kindaof ammo . The Glock 34 has tons and tons of after market parts and replacement parts are everywhere and so are holsters.

Other than the Glock 34 , I would go the CZ route . But for me the G34 rocks.

Check out my G34 in my avatar pic .

Edited June 22, 2012 by Tenifer17

[DevJames]

CZ 75..........They have many models some basic and some for competition ,I have 3 now and they have become my fav shooters

Cant compare IMO a Glock to s SIG in any way shape or form but you can compare a CZ to a SIG.........

http://www.best9mm.com/

THIS

For 600, you can swing an SP-01.

The tactical, with night sights and a decocker instead of safety runs around 650. It's on the very short list of 9mm's I want.

[~48_South~]

There is a reason tons of people use the 34 in competition,one of those reasons imo is there is no better gun for the money.

[MiddTennTaco]

Like another guy said... You absolutely gotta take a look at cz-75 models. They are very well known for their accuracy and are used in ispc also. Relatively cheap and very ergonomic.

Sent from my HTC Inspire using Tapatalk 2

[DannyP]

Man i want a P229 with the SRT trigger lol

[Patton]

That Sig 2022 is hard to beat! I talk about it all the time, if I felt the need to buy a dozen magazines for it I would probably get a Glock instead though. Can't beat the low price of Glock mags vs Sig mags.

[kwe45919]

I sold my P2022 2 months ago....it was a fantastic gun for it's price range. Not being a Sig expert I think I can fairly say that IF you are wanting a pistol for competetion I would not get the P2022. If you wanted it for the range or as a carry piece at a great price, I say go for it. I really liked my P2022 and it was accurate as all Sigs tend to be but I'm pretty positive it wouldn't be the best choice for any competetion.....

[Chadastrophic]

I've been looking heavily at the Walther PPQ, I need to fondle one soon.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I say get the Glock 34 . I have one and carry it as a conceal carry gun and it is a range gun . I like the reliability , the rust resistance , the accuracy and the easy of detail stripping it down to it's very few parts. This gun can be taken completely apart in just 2 minutes and be put right back togather.

The rest of the mentioned guns have lots and lots of springs and levers and such . To me that is too much that could go wrong and get dirty . My G34 eays all kindaof ammo . The Glock 34 has tons and tons of after market parts and replacement parts are everywhere and so are holsters.

Other than the Glock 34 , I would go the CZ route . But for me the G34 rocks.

Check out my G34 in my avatar pic .

Hi Tenifer17. A curiosity question. Admittedly a G34 is slightly shorter than a G17 long slide and therefore possibly more "practical" for carry or competition. But for a range gun, is there anything about a G34 that would make it "better" than a G17 long slide? I'm not a good shot but there is a pattern that I shoot best with long-sight-radius pistols and shoot worst with short-sight-radius pistols. Therefore I'd suspect that a G17L might be a little better a range gun (for me) than a G34 because it has a longer sight radius? But if a G34 has additional offsetting advantages over a G17L it would be nice to know about them.

Thanks!

[Guest Nikator]

I was quoted $749 for a new P226, the regular pistol w/ 2 15 round mags from an online retailer.

Anyone think I can get a better deal locally, or at least get it for $749 plus tax? Shipping is $18.

I'm still not sure if the P226 is that much better than the $399 2022.