Regulation signs or courtesy signs?

[JayC]

Glad you just edited the verbiage of your post. This is a better way to ask your question. Any carry laws apply to government buildings and property, however private businesses are supposed to be posted properly with the proper sign to communicate their desires to not have legal guns on the property. If you don't see a sign or have prior knowledge that the area is posted and you carry there, usually the only thing that's going to happen is they could ask you to leave. As long as you comply there are rarely any issues.

It is very common for places to not be posted properly. I, like many gun owners just choose not to do business there, personally not because I can't carry inside, but because of the principal of it.

Other than court rooms, schools, parks and wildlife areas state government property is covered under the same posting law as private businesses.

So a non legal sign on a government building carries the same weight as a non legal sign on a business unless it's one of the above special victim zones.

[JayC]

Besides Knoxville City parks, are there any others that can be off-limits but not posted (besides public parks being used for school functions like athletics)?

There are a number of towns in tn that still have pre 1986 laws on the books. Some even appear to technically prohibit all forms of carry with the city limits even with a permit... But there has been no record of any of these laws being enforced.

There are also a bunch of parks posted that probably can't be posted under the current law... Any public park that is operating on leased or loaned state land can't be posted legally... Metro Nashville has posted some parks which appear to violate posting under the state law.

[Guest 270win]

I don't have a problem with anyone having a policy against firearms, whether that is a school, park, private business, or government building. The problem I have is the law making carrying in some locations a criminal offense. Asking people to leave is plenty when the person has a permit. If the person doesn't leave, hit them up for trespassing.

I think too many people and especially the government types think they have to attach a criminal offense to something they don't like, like carrying handguns at schools. They never can understand that a place can still ask people to leave when they don't like a behavior without attaching felony or misdemeanor charges to people with permits.

Edited June 19, 2012 by 270win

[gjohnsoniv]

It would be too much for the government to realize that we can ask other people do to something, they think a law has to be there.

[JAB]

I generally avoid places that are posted, properly or not. Like others, I don't want to give my money to a business that doesn't respect the fact that I have gone through the process to be able to legally carry.

Then there are the 'not properly posted' places that have something like the following statement at the entrance, etc.:

"While we respect the rights of our customers, it is our company policy not to allow firearms on our premises."

No gun buster, no legal verbage, just that statement. My thoughts on such a statement are:

1. No, if you tell me that you don't want me, as a law-abiding citizen with an HCP, carrying in your place of business then you don't really respect my rights (I feel differently about private residences and businesses.)

2. I care about the law and don't wish to break the law. Not being one of your employees and being that if I choose to dine in your establishment then I am paying you and not the other way around, however, I don't give a tinker's damn about your company policy.

Edited June 19, 2012 by JAB

[RobertNashville]

It's not ilegal for me to handle a firearm while the line is cold, but the privately owned range has every right to not allow that on their property.

You are right; what I should have said was "...Constitutionally protected activity (such as carrying a firearm)" - I changed it above.

[DaveS]

Deleted by user

Edited June 21, 2012 by wd-40

[DaveS]

Other than court rooms, schools, parks and wildlife areas state government property is covered under the same posting law as private businesses.

So a non legal sign on a government building carries the same weight as a non legal sign on a business unless it's one of the above special victim zones.

Please don't bet your paycheck on your statement!

Dave

[JayC]

Please don't bet your paycheck on your statement!

Dave

So which exact law other than 39-17-1359 covers governments in this situation? Show me a single prosecution under 1359 in either case where only a 1359 violation is being charged.

Anybody can make silly factually incorrect statements... Time to back them up, please cite the law or a case which backs up your comment.

[monkeylizard]

You are right; what I should have said was "...Constitutionally protected activity (such as carrying a firearm)" - I changed it above.

The Constitution limits the government, not private parties.

[RobertNashville]

The Constitution limits the government, not private parties.

Maybe I wasn't clear but I wasn't talking about private parties or private property, I was talking about businesses and business property where the public is not just allowed to be but needs to be and is desired to be by the business (and of course, any property owned by the public/bought with public money).

[RobertNashville]

Since this subject and "open or concealed carry" thread comes up at least every week, I will only say this....

If the property is posted, no matter how it is done, respect the property owners rights and don't carry. It IS NOT worth being removed from the property in bracelets! Go elsewheres or leave your "Toad" in your car! Plain and simple....

With that said....

I will only sit back and watch this thread from here on out.....You decide what's right for you and your wallet!

Dave

I agree, although perhaps for different reasons...my reason are more "financial" in nature in that I don't want to support businesses that don't support my right to carry arms.

[RobertNashville]

So which exact law other than 39-17-1359 covers governments in this situation? Show me a single prosecution under 1359 in either case where only a 1359 violation is being charged.

Anybody can make silly factually incorrect statements... Time to back them up, please cite the law or a case which backs up your comment.

Should we obey the law only if the law is enforced/people are punished when the break the law?

I don't know of anyone who has actually been charged but does that really matter???

I ( at least when I notice them) won't walk past an improperly posted/out of compliance "no firearms" sign because, as I just indicated above, in that I don't want to support businesses that don't support my right to carry arms. However, when the sign is properly posted, while the "financial component" is still there, I also don't carry past the sign because it IS illegal, enforced or not.

Now, I don't think is should be illegal but at least for now, it is. Also right now, our ability to legally go armed is predicated on us being law-abiding citizens - if we are truly law-abiding then don't we have an obligation to obey the law whether it's aggressively enforced (or not enforced at all); perhaps even more obligated given that this signage law applies directly to the arms we carry?

Certainly, everybody is free to do what they believe is best for them but that's (above) is how I see it.

Edited June 20, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest 270win]

I carry a gun as a part of my business/bank deposits/etc. If I have to meet someone at a restaurant and the customer is paying, I am not going to argue where we eat. Now if the place has a sign up that is not in conformance with state law, of course I am going to carry. My customer could be paying and it would be silly to request to eat elsewhere. Same thing with if I have to go to a hospital, state government place, anything where the sign does not seem to be in line with the law. If I am riding with my customer in his car, it would be silly to say "Hey man, can I leave my gun in your car because of this sign?". My customers don't even know I carry a gun! Do you think I'd let that information out with people I do business with? Of course not.

Some people carry for fun, after work, or just occassional. But few people understand what it is like to carry as protection for your work/business and how impractical it is to run around taking a gun on and off to make people happy with their policies. What they don't know doesn't hurt them is my view.

Edited June 20, 2012 by 270win

[DaveS]

Deleted by user

Edited June 21, 2012 by wd-40

[DaveS]

Deleted by user

Edited June 21, 2012 by wd-40

[RobertNashville]

I carry a gun as a part of my business/bank deposits/etc. If I have to meet someone at a restaurant and the customer is paying, I am not going to argue where we eat. Now if the place has a sign up that is not in conformance with state law, of course I am going to carry. My customer could be paying and it would be silly to request to eat elsewhere. Same thing with if I have to go to a hospital, state government place, anything where the sign does not seem to be in line with the law. If I am riding with my customer in his car, it would be silly to say "Hey man, can I leave my gun in your car because of this sign?". My customers don't even know I carry a gun! Do you think I'd let that information out with people I do business with? Of course not.

Some people carry for fun, after work, or just occassional. But few people understand what it is like to carry as protection for your work/business and how impractical it is to run around taking a gun on and off to make people happy with their policies. What they don't know doesn't hurt them is my view.

All of us face times/places where we might need to frequent a business that doesn't want us to be armed (propertly posted or not) and/or that may even necessitate us carrying "past a sign" (i.e. leaving the weapon in a vchicle isn't a viable option) and I don't think anyone (and I know I wasn't) trying to suggest otherwise.

As for why people carry, you seem to be implying that your reson for being armed is somewhat superior to other reasons??? If I'm misunderstanding you then I apologize; if I am understanding you correctly then I think you are, at best, being unfair. We all carry what, how, when and were is best for us and what is best for each of us shouldn't be any one else's concern.

Edit: of course we all know that the only proper weapon to carry is a full-sized 1911 in either .45 or 10MM (no wossy 40S&W or even wosser 9MM) and that the only acceptible way to carry it is in a well concealed IWB holster and we should carry it 100% of the time except for while we are in bed (at which point it is acceptible to have the weapon on the night stand either as our primaby HD weapon or as a back-up weapon to our 12GA shotgun or AR15.

Edited June 20, 2012 by RobertNashville

[JayC]

Should we obey the law only if the law is enforced/people are punished when the break the law?

I don't know of anyone who has actually been charged but does that really matter???

I ( at least when I notice them) won't walk past an improperly posted/out of compliance "no firearms" sign because, as I just indicated above, in that I don't want to support businesses that don't support my right to carry arms. However, when the sign is properly posted, while the "financial component" is still there, I also don't carry past the sign because it IS illegal, enforced or not.

Now, I don't think is should be illegal but at least for now, it is. Also right now, our ability to legally go armed is predicated on us being law-abiding citizens - if we are truly law-abiding then don't we have an obligation to obey the law whether it's aggressively enforced (or not enforced at all); perhaps even more obligated given that this signage law applies directly to the arms we carry?

Certainly, everybody is free to do what they believe is best for them but that's (above) is how I see it.

No you completely missed my point...

First, wd-40 makes the claim that somehow postings by the government (of non-special classes of locations, schools, park, etc as outlined in my post) are somehow different than posting of privately owned locations...

Which is complete and utter non-sense, both are covered under 39-17-1359.

The post was to point out that he should stop spreading misinformation about posting laws, unless he can cite a law or a criminal case to back up his claim. And in thiscase there is very little to no case law on point, and the law is fairly clear.

I'm not advocating that anybody break the law, only that general government buildings (not special victim zones) are covered under the EXACT same law as private businesses, and have the same requirements to post to prohibit carry.

And like you I will NOT do business with anybody who has a sign posted, whether it's legally binding or not, government locations are a little different... largely I have no other option, so if they're not legally posted, I don't disarm.

[JayC]

PROPERLY

Please QUOATE the STATE LAW for all of us here....so we ALL KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY post our businesses....I really want to hear what you have to say.....

Dave

Here you go, because typing tca 39-17-1359 into Google is just so hard to do:

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359

[RobertNashville]

No you completely missed my point...

Well...that's been known to happen before even though I try not to.

[JayC]

Well...that's been known to happen before even though I try not to.

It's ok no hard feelings...

I'm just trying to keep the discussion honest... TN gun laws are confusing enough without people making wildly incorrect claims based on feelings, instead of facts... You know the law, and will provide cites when you're making an argument... I just wish others would as well

[DaveS]

Deleted by user

Edited June 21, 2012 by wd-40

[JayC]

Care to post your business name and location so it can be added to the list of businesses that have posted? That way TGO members can steer clear? I'm sure I'm not the only one here that would want to avoid giving you any business

As for getting people arrested, best of luck... you'd be the first business owner in the state to get somebody charged under 1359, with no other violations of the law... and I've heard a rumor that a certain group is looking for that exact case to take to court to challenge the posting law...

But, hey it would be great word of mouth for your business I'm sure

My "business" is posted "No Handguns or Concealed Weapons Allowed" and contains a "gun buster" symbol...what do you not understand about that sign? I am not going to confront you in by business location about your CHOICE to carry past my sign.....I will instead have you ARRESTED...anything you don't understand about that LANGUAGE?????

I'm done,,,,,,some of you people are too damned stupid to even have a HCP...let alone carry a loaded gun!!!

Dave

[MikePapa1]

My favorite liquor store here in Gallatin, Broadway Liquors (free ad for them), just put up this week a "No Firearms" lettering on their front door. I said, you know I'm going to have to find a new liquor store because I always carry. They told me, "That sign's not meant for you. We know you." Apparently they had a recent visitor who was open carrying and it caused some concern by the owner, hence the new lettering. They were kind enough to show me the store firearm and its location, and asked what I carry so I told them. They said "Don't worry you can carry here anytime. We trust you."

[Guest 270win]

WD 40,

You are all for gun rights and have some sign to TRY to keep people from carrying a handgun at your own business? I find that strange. I would never even think of putting something like that up at my own business because I don't care to pat people down/run a metal detector to try to find out if someone is carrying.

Robert,

I do think there are some people out there that get a handgun carry permit that rarely if ever carry. It is a novelty item and actually carrying the gun makes them nervous. They may just throw a gun in the glovebox if anything. I do not think my reason to carry a gun is any better than others, but I do think the vast majority of people, including those with permits, who think all these restrictions are OK do not understand the hassle it imposes on people who actually do carry their gun all the time.