Regulation signs or courtesy signs?

[TMF]

My favorite liquor store here in Gallatin, Broadway Liquors (free ad for them), just put up this week a "No Firearms" lettering on their front door. I said, you know I'm going to have to find a new liquor store because I always carry. They told me, "That sign's not meant for you. We know you." Apparently they had a recent visitor who was open carrying and it caused some concern by the owner, hence the new lettering. They were kind enough to show me the store firearm and its location, and asked what I carry so I told them. They said "Don't worry you can carry here anytime. We trust you."

Very interesting. A shame that OCing could motivate business owners to do such a thing, but understandable considering society today and what people consider to be normal. I wish that a person OCing was a very normal thing that didn't set off the sheep, but I don't think that is the world we live in today; at least in the populated areas. At least they took the time to research and not put up a legal posting.

[Guest 270win]

I do think Missouri takes the right approach to this matter. Missouri has a lot of places that are 'off limits' if you look at handgunlaw to make the 'bed wetters' feel better but it also is written in a way to benefit those who are carrying. From my reading you could possibly even carry in schools and only be asked to leave.

http://www.handgunla...es/missouri.pdf

You can even have a loaded handgun in your car without any sort of license up there and open carry in some places up there without a license. Missouri has it figured out.

Edited June 20, 2012 by 270win

[Guest 270win]

JayC,

You are correct about giving WD40 a 'good luck' in regards to having someone arrested over the sign. First he'd have to figure out that someone is carrying, which will be either open carry or sloppy concealed carry. I doubt he would want to pat people down or run people through a metal detector. Then he'd have to find an officer willing to deal with this sign issue. After that I highly doubt even if he finds an officer willing to deal with it the officer will truly arrest the person. At most the person will receive a misdemeanor summons/citation. Prostitutes in Memphis are given citations often times is my understanding. Even minor drug and weapons offenses. This is no more than a victim less crime and is treated as such by the system. If he thinks someone will be processed in jail and have to bond out over it again good luck with that.

A lot of people would have no problem paying the five hundred dollars if it came to that point or paying a lawyer to dismiss the whole deal. 39-17-1359 is a gray law that can have holes poked all the way through it. "I didn't see the sign" is probably enough. If it worked for a guy at the Memphis airport who carried past the metal detectors it will work for someone any other place where there is not a federal penalty attached (such as in the secure area of an airport).

Edited June 20, 2012 by 270win

[DaveS]

Deleted by user

Edited June 21, 2012 by wd-40

[Guest 270win]

WD,

I am not personally attacking you. I am just saying I find it surprising that you would talk about gun rights, have a carry permit, and then stick up a sign at your business to keep people from LEGALLY carrying a handgun. I find it similar to what a lot of the govt types in Nashville and DC do. Look at how Beth Harwell won't take down the signs at the statehouse in Nashville. She claims she supports the 2nd Amend but can't do something as simple as asking the grounds people to take down some signs. I also pointed out how it is hard to even enforce such a rule unless you run people through metal detectors/pat downs. And then that someone will probably not be truly arrested and booked over this. Yes, you can be escorted off property, but it is unlikely you would be processed in jail and have to bond out.

[DaveS]

Deleted by user

Edited June 21, 2012 by wd-40

[RobertNashville]

My "business" is posted "No Handguns or Concealed Weapons Allowed" and contains a "gun buster" symbol...what do you not understand about that sign? I am not going to confront you in by business location about your CHOICE to carry past my sign.....I will instead have you ARRESTED...anything you don't understand about that LANGUAGE?????

I didn't include your insult in the quote above (didn't see any need to go there) but the first part of your post is, well, stunning.

Based on your profile you are former military and former LEO, who has his HCP and indicates he carries but doesn't want customers (presumably customers his business needs to stay in business) to be able to carry their firearm pursuant to their HCP while patronizing said business. The irony and inconsistency of that is so great I don't think it can be measured; at least not by any conventional means.

You certainly have the right to do that under current law but I can't say it makes any sens to me.

[Guest 270win]

I see it as no different than when Arkansas tried to legalize carrying in restaurants about ten years ago. I remember a legislator from south arkansas holding up his concealed handgun license and stating "This license does not authorize me to carry in the honkytonks and boozeries in the state" and giving restaurant carry a thumbs down and voting against it.

Jimmy Nafeih from Covington has a handgun carry permit just like a lot of other politicians but is scared of people carrying around them. I wouldn't be surprised if the present house speaker has a handgun carry permit or just carries illegally like a lot of politcians but doesn't want others to.

[williamsburg]

Wow! This makes me wonder now. When I was doing my app for HCP I asked a LEO that was behind the counter at the Drivers Service Center what was off limits. He said state/fed buildings, schools and some parks and anyone posting Tenn. code restricting firearms. He said the law changed a while back and all other NO GUN signs were invalid.

[Guest 270win]

State buildings are not automatically off limits in TN.

[Oh Shoot]

State buildings are not automatically off limits in TN.

Also, federal buildings are to be posted, and if not, law says you are exempt from prosecution.

Social Security building in Knoxville was not posted for example, the one time I've been there.

- OS

[Makiaveli]

Also, federal buildings are to be posted, and if not, law says you are exempt from prosecution.

Social Security building in Knoxville was not posted for example, the one time I've been there.

- OS

I'm confused. I would swear I've seen it said a dozen times in this thread alone (even by you once or twice) that Fed buildings don't have to be posted by Fed law.

Or are you saying you can't be prosecuted under TN law unless they are posted?

[Oh Shoot]

I'm confused. I would swear I've seen it said a dozen times in this thread alone (even by you once or twice) that Fed buildings don't have to be posted by Fed law.

Or are you saying you can't be prosecuted under TN law unless they are posted?

I've never said Fed buildings "don't have to be posted". USC 18 Section 930 says that they do. And that you won't be convicted for carrying in them if they are not. Nothing to do with TN law.

Confusion is probably that Post Offices are apparently not considered federal buildings under this statute, and operate under a separate set of rules, and posting is not one of them. Even though they would seem to fit the definition of "federal facility" just fine. Must have something to do with their status as "public sector union" workers or something is only thing I can figure.

So I may well have said that PO's don't have to be posted to bar carry -- if I ever said "federal buildings" in general don't, I was wrong, simple as that.

- OS

------------------------------

edit: What the heck, here is whole statute, it's not that long:

18 U.S.C. § 930 : US Code - Section 930:

Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly

possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous

weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),

or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned

not more than 1 year, or both.

( Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon

be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes

to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal

facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or

imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

© A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of

subsection (a) or ( , or in the course of an attack on a Federal

facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon,

or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as

provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,

agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political

subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or

supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or

prosecution of any violation of law;

(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a

Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such

possession is authorized by law; or

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons

in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful

purposes.

(e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly

possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court

facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title,

imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described

in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the

United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or

orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of

weapons within any building housing such court or any of its

proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

(g) As used in this section:

(1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part

thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal

employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing

their official duties.

(2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device,

instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is

used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious

bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket

knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length.

(3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom,

judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms,

attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the

court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States

marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of

any court of the United States.

(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and ( shall be

posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal

facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted

conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court

facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under

subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such

notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had

actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

Edited June 24, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest 270win]

(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons

in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful

purposes.

This section is only for federal buildings not the federal court houses. You will get in trouble bad for carrying in a federal court. I'm sure the fed gov would try some way to fine you over a federal building too if they could.

Post offices seem to have some reg where you can be fined. I read where a guy in Virginia got fined fifty bucks for carrying on post office property. He was open carrying and wanted to be a test case.

[Makiaveli]

I've never said Fed buildings "don't have to be posted". USC 18 Section 930 says that they do. And that you won't be convicted for carrying in them if they are not. Nothing to do with TN law.

Confusion is probably that Post Offices are apparently not considered federal buildings under this statute, and operate under a separate set of rules, and posting is not one of them. Even though they would seem to fit the definition of "federal facility" just fine. Must have something to do with their status as "public sector union" workers or something is only thing I can figure.

So I may well have said that PO's don't have to be posted to bar carry -- if I ever said "federal buildings" in general don't, I was wrong, simple as that.

- OS

------------------------------

Sorry my post was confusing now that I go back and re-read it. I think now I see where I was off. I was reading into what you said and interpreting it to mean what I thought was right.

Thanks for clearing that up and I didn't mean to imply you were wrong or had posted false/misleading info, just that I was confused.

[dlm37015]

i just checked i belong to 7 gun and sportsmens clubs.cant carry at any of them all guns must be cases unloaded until you are on the firing line strange .i checked a little further in all cases it was because of ins.

maybe this is why some buisness post their buisness