Regulation signs or courtesy signs?

[Guest Inertia]

Is a establishment is not properly posted with the correct sign would it still be LEGAL to carry beyond its doors?

Edited June 19, 2012 by Inertia

[gregintenn]

Why that would be illegal, and the rules of this forum preclude the discussion of any illegal activity.

[Guest Inertia]

What about the signs that are not posted correctly? Aren't they considered courtesy signs if not the actual regulation ones?

[Kenstaroni]

Glad you just edited the verbiage of your post. This is a better way to ask your question. Any carry laws apply to government buildings and property, however private businesses are supposed to be posted properly with the proper sign to communicate their desires to not have legal guns on the property. If you don't see a sign or have prior knowledge that the area is posted and you carry there, usually the only thing that's going to happen is they could ask you to leave. As long as you comply there are rarely any issues.

It is very common for places to not be posted properly. I, like many gun owners just choose not to do business there, personally not because I can't carry inside, but because of the principal of it.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Kenstaroni

[Caster]

Never. Not just because it's illegal, also because I refuse to grace any establishment with the privilege of having my business and/or presence if they don't support my right.

[Erik88]

Those signs hold no weight here in Florida. Ironically the only place I've seen the gunbuster sign is at the local guns stores here in town. I always ignore the sign.

When I'm visiting TN I will not enter places that are posted.

[Guest Inertia]

Never. Not just because it's illegal, also because I refuse to grace any establishment with the privilege of having my business and/or presence if they don't support my right.

I second that.

My reason for asking before some of us jumped off the hay wagon, is because at cd warehouse in Clarksville there is a very noticeable gun buster sign. The only thing is that it's drawn in paper with what looks like to be a permanent marker.

[Caster]

I second that.

My reason for asking before some of us jumped off the hay wagon, is because at cd warehouse in Clarksville there is a very noticeable gun buster sign. The only thing is that it's drawn in paper with what looks like to be a permanent marker.

Yeah, i get that. But...piss on them. In a word - iTunes. Cheaper, faster, don't have to search through cråp.

[monkeylizard]

I second that.

My reason for asking before some of us jumped off the hay wagon, is because at cd warehouse in Clarksville there is a very noticeable gun buster sign. The only thing is that it's drawn in paper with what looks like to be a permanent marker.

Nothing in the law says that the sign has to be professionally printed, just that it has to have some specific language (see TCA 39-17-1359) OR be a gunbuster. It sounds to me like they are properly posted.

To answer your OP question, yes, you may legally carry past in improper sign. Something that simply says "No firearms allowed on premises" or something like that can be ignored. Choosing to comply is optional*, but expect to at least be asked to leave if you're "made". Failure to leave when asked would be trespassing, regardless of any firearms/postings.

*Some people think that some businesses intentionally use improper signage. This makes it look like they ban firearms to most people, but to those in the know, they give a wink-and-nod. Personally, I don't buy that. I think it's simpler than that. I think that businesses that do that are often national or multinational companies that don't know the law in every state so they make a generic "no firearms" sign and then leave it up to the local managers to enforce as they please/are allowed to do.

Edited June 19, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Caster]

Good deal Inertia

For what it's worth, I do it all the time. :foot: :foot:

...and welcome to the board!

Edited June 19, 2012 by Caster

[Guest Inertia]

I guess that answered my question. Thanks I appreciate the professional opinions.

[Oh Shoot]

... Any carry laws apply to government buildings and property, however private businesses are supposed to be posted properly with the proper sign to communicate their desires to not have legal guns on the property.

TN state, county, and city government buildings must be posted just the same as private businesses.

Only rooms containing courts in session are off limits by TN law and federal buildings by federal law.

Btw, everyone seems so adamant that it's perfectly legal to carry past a non-conforming-to-statute sign: but there is no case law on that yet. Our AG has opined that you may be found guilty of carrying in a restricted park, even if there are no signs at all there.

Obviously, it's a statute that is not really much if at all enforced, and there is much anecdotal evidence that violators are generally just asked to leave if a LEO shows up, but I'd avoid taking the advice as gospel.

- OS

Edited June 19, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest 270win]

If the sign is not in conformance with the law, it is legal to carry. It would be best that you conceal when in such places. There are quite a few places like that in downtown Memphis, so of course I conceal my gun and carry when then signs are not legal.

[monkeylizard]

Our AG has opined that you may be found guilty of carrying in a restricted park, even if there are no signs at all there.

Besides Knoxville City parks, are there any others that can be off-limits but not posted (besides public parks being used for school functions like athletics)?

[Guest Inertia]

If the sign is not in conformance with the law, it is legal to carry. It would be best that you conceal when in such places. There are quite a few places like that in downtown Memphis, so of course I conceal my gun and carry when then signs are not legal.

Can somebody clear this up for me? What dictates a sign "not in conformance with the law"?

[Kenstaroni]

The sign has to be the proper gun buster sign. Just something written out like "no firearms" or something wouldn't be the correct signage and therefore technically not valid because it's not posted properly. I think it was part of a law passed last year or so...I'm sure someone knows the name of it, but it required businesses to have a specific sign to alleviate all the different signs out there. Most businesses aren't aware of this or haven't chosen to post properly. They all still think a sticker on the door is going to prevent crime...lol

Edited June 19, 2012 by Kenstaroni

[Oh Shoot]

If the sign is not in conformance with the law, it is legal to carry. ...

Again, this is your opinion only. While it would seem logical to assume so, it is untested territory, and there's no guarantee that you will not be convicted even if it's not conforming. See AG opinion about parks above.

If charged it's going to cost you a lawyer. And the scores can really change if you have to appeal to get the "justice" you seem to take for granted.

The sign has to be the proper gun buster sign. ....

C'mon Ken, be accurate. A gun buster is one of the two types of conforming signs. And there is not a "proper" gunbuster. It is defined only as:

"the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle". Can be any size, any general design, any color, etc.

Can also be words only. The language does NOT have to be specific, is still "substantially similar" to:

"AS AUTHORIZED BY T.C.A. § 39-17-1359, POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON POSTED PROPERTY OR IN A POSTED BUILDING IS PROHIBITED AND IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE."

"Substantially similar" is defined now, as containing language to denote that:

"1. The property is posted under authority of Tennessee law;

2. Weapons or firearms are prohibited on the property, in the building, or on the portion of the property or building that is posted; and

3. Possessing a weapon in an area that has been posted is a criminal offense."

edit: Guess I should have just pasted the whole statute in retrospect:

-------------------------------------

-------------------------------------

39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings -- Posting notice.

(a) (1) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person who is at a meeting conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity.

(2) The prohibition in subdivision (a)(1) shall apply to any person who is authorized to carry a firearm by authority of § 39-17-1351.

( (1) Notice of the prohibition permitted by subsection (a) shall be accomplished by displaying one (1) or both of the notices described in subdivision ( (3) in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited. Either form of notice used shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, property, or portion of the building or property, posted.

(2) The notice required by this section shall be in English, but a duplicate notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited.

(3) (A) If a sign is used as the method of posting, it shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

AS AUTHORIZED BY T.C.A. § 39-17-1359, POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON POSTED PROPERTY OR IN A POSTED BUILDING IS PROHIBITED AND IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

( As used in this section, "language substantially similar to" means the sign contains language plainly stating that:

(i) The property is posted under authority of Tennessee law;

(ii) Weapons or firearms are prohibited on the property, in the building, or on the portion of the property or building that is posted; and

(iii) Possessing a weapon in an area that has been posted is a criminal offense.

© A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i) The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle; or

(ii) The posting sign described in this subdivision ( (3).

© (1) It is an offense to possess a weapon in a building or on property that is properly posted in accordance with this section.

(2) Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500).

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.

(e) The provisions of this section shall not apply to title 70 regarding wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

(f) This section shall not apply to the grounds of any public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. The carrying of firearms in those areas shall be governed by § 39-17-1311.

HISTORY: Acts 1996, ch. 905, § 11; 2000, ch. 929, § 1; 2009, ch. 428, § 4; 2010, ch. 1009, § 3.

note:

a "b" in "()" becomes (

a "c" in "()" becomes ©

- OS

Edited June 19, 2012 by OhShoot

[peejman]

Besides Knoxville City parks, are there any others that can be off-limits but not posted (besides public parks being used for school functions like athletics)?

That's the trouble, it could be any of them. Since the law change didn't require signage changes (and signage isn't that reliable anyway), there's no easy way to tell. I suppose you could call up every municipality that has a park you might visit and ask, but if you asked 3 different officials, I feel sure you'd get 3 different answers. As OS has pointed out, enforcement seems to be nil unless you're an idiot whose name starts with "kw" and ends with "ick".

[BryanP]

When in doubt, either don't carry in to the establishment or find another place to do business.

[Guest Springfield1911guy]

Never. Not just because it's illegal, also because I refuse to grace any establishment with the privilege of having my business and/or presence if they don't support my right.

To be fair, they too have a right that you should support. They have the right not to have guns on their property if they don't want them. Rights work both ways.

[Caster]

To be fair, they too have a right that you should support. They have the right not to have guns on their property if they don't want them. Rights work both ways.

Well, I won't support them with my money, time or kind comments, so what else is there? I won't openly bash them or make disparaging remarks but that's as far as I go.

[Guest 270win]

If you conceal your gun and the signs do not follow 39-17-1359, there should be nothing to worry about. How will someone know you have a gun if it is concealed in a good holster? Do you reveal the fact that you carry a gun to people in public? At most you will probably be asked to leave if someone discovers you have a gun because most business owners do not like guns on their property. If all else fails, the signs are not proper, and you somehow are unlucky to get charged with this sign violation, it is just a low level misdemeanor that can be quickly cleared up with a lawyer.

In Memphis there are people that kill people who get very little prison time from the courts. Do you really think a lot of time will be wasted over a 500 dollar misdemeanor (an expensive traffic ticket) in the system when the law is in your favor? We have prostitutes and drug dealers (felony) openly doing their trade in parts of Memphis. Violent criminals often get probated sentences.

There was a guy outside Memphis who was traveling from Kentucky, an 18 wheeler ran a stoplight and hit his car. He had to go back home by flying and forgot to check his gun in at the counter of the airport. He was charged with a couple things, including this sign fine deal. It was all quickly dropped by the prosecutor. And this was carrying his gun PAST the metal detectors, which is illegally federally and can be a felony.

Edited June 19, 2012 by 270win

[RobertNashville]

To be fair, they too have a right that you should support. They have the right not to have guns on their property if they don't want them. Rights work both ways.

Frankly, I don't agree that a business property which invites the public to be there should be able to tell that public they can't do a legal thing (such as carry a firearm).

That said, assuming that a business has that right I would say that they have an obligation to make their policy known.

[RobertNashville]

Well, I won't support them with my money, time or kind comments, so what else is there? I won't openly bash them or make disparaging remarks but that's as far as I go.

Amen.

I see no good reason to reward any business with my money if the have so little concern for my safety that they don't want me to be in their business with their firearm. I understand that there are circumstances that sometimes require me to disarm and frequent a business (i.e. many hospitals) but except in those cases, I find somewhere else to spend my time and money.

[monkeylizard]

Frankly, I don't agree that a business property which invites the public to be there should be able to tell that public they can't do a legal thing (such as carry a firearm).

It's not ilegal for me to handle a firearm while the line is cold, but the privately owned range has every right to not allow that on their property.

Edited June 19, 2012 by monkeylizard