Clarksville Parks Carry Thread

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Really? First it's not any officer but your commanding officer that would sign a memo if that's the route you choose (Most commanders will laugh a Soldier away if they ask for it). Secondly how does a class that spends 4 hours on basic laws and 4 hours of range time more effective than me putting in the work at the range and in the law books on my time? The class in no way makes an individual more prepared to carry than someone who does the work on their own. I'll take my time spent studying laws on my own over some Joe schmoe who went to the class and was the last time they shot or studied HCP laws. To state that Soldiers coming back from wherever have "neglected issues" is silly. The Army spends a ridiculous amount of money on programs to assist Soldiers with their issues and if a service member chooses to lie or under state their issues then it's no one's fault but theirs. A psych review from a third party is ridiculous, why isn't the professional that does the work for the Army not good enough? I have more concern that idiots behind a steering wheel will hurt my family or myself before a Soldier returning from combat would. Don't short change today's Soldiers, all elements of society have Idiots and the Army is not an exception but the majority of Soldiers that pursue HCP permits are just as responsible as you or me.

Well Lets just agree to disagree on everything that you wrote just about.

[Guest FIST]

Well Lets just agree to disagree on everything that you wrote just about.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

I don't see a commander signing off on a problem Soldier. It just ain't gonna happen. If anything getting the approval from the COC is harder than going the regular route, as this route is more subjective and must pass multiple layers as opposed to a course you're paying for.

If a private wants his commander to sign something it's gonna go to his first line leader and then to platoon leadership. Those folks would knock that down off the bat if the Soldier had issues. Then it's going to go up to the command team, and the 1SG definitely knows who his problem Soldiers are. Then you have the Commander who has worked hard to get to where he is and understands that he is responsible for everything the unit does or fails to do. He ain't rubber stamping something if he thinks private snuffy is gonna get into a drunken shoot out over a soccer game.

Like I said above, folks that would engage in that sort of impulsive behavior are not going to pay attention to the laws anyway. All the more reason for me to be armed to protect my family.

I am one of those folks who got the permit with a memo from the Commander. I took it upon myself to learn the laws. Someone that doesn't do that is responsible for themselves. I am not responsible for them and shouldn't be lumped into that category.

What rank was the SF guy who lost control and killed his friend? http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2012/03/16/fort-campbell-based-5th-special-forces-group-soldier-killed-in-north-clarksville-shooting/

The strains of way effect all soldiers differently. Just becasue you are responsible and follow the laws and take it upon yourself to be a more responsible gun owner doesn't mean that everyone else does. And for that reason and only that reason laws restrict gun owners from certain things. Granted most atrocities with guns are committed by those without legal right to Carry.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Ignorance is bliss.

You said it not me.

[TMF]

What rank was the SF guy who lost control and killed his friend? http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2012/03/16/fort-campbell-based-5th-special-forces-group-soldier-killed-in-north-clarksville-shooting/

The strains of way effect all soldiers differently. Just becasue you are responsible and follow the laws and take it upon yourself to be a more responsible gun owner doesn't mean that everyone else does. And for that reason and only that reason laws restrict gun owners from certain things. Granted most atrocities with guns are committed by those without legal right to Carry.

That had nothing to do with combat stress. The guy was a dirtbag and a grifter. He was passed through to make numbers and had no business wearing a uniform, let alone a tab.

By sheer numbers you are going to see Soldiers do stuff like this since the demographic of men between the ages of 18-30 is over represented in Clarksville, and that demographic happens to represent a group of folks that do dumb stuff regardless of their profession or combat experience. Nearly all these cases of Soldiers doing something crazy or irrational is related to them having an f'd up personal life or a preexisting mental condition that wasn't caught earlier. Combat stress is used as an excuse to elicit an emotional response and remove blame. Many of these folks that do these sorts of things never deployed or didn't serve in a combat role. Having served in a combat arms unit for nearly a decade of war I can tell you it was the support personnel who couldn't keep their sh** together at home were over 90 percent of the issues I saw.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

That had nothing to do with combat stress. The guy was a dirtbag and a grifter. He was passed through to make numbers and had no business wearing a uniform, let alone a tab.

By sheer numbers you are going to see Soldiers do stuff like this since the demographic of men between the ages of 18-30 is over represented in Clarksville, and that demographic happens to represent a group of folks that do dumb stuff regardless of their profession or combat experience. Nearly all these cases of Soldiers doing something crazy or irrational is related to them having an f'd up personal life or a preexisting mental condition that wasn't caught earlier. Combat stress is used as an excuse to elicit an emotional response and remove blame. Many of these folks that do these sorts of things never deployed or didn't serve in a combat role. Having served in a combat arms unit for nearly a decade of war I can tell you it was the support personnel who couldn't keep their sh** together at home were over 90 percent of the issues I saw.

Wow you are the stereo typical group guy. I was a support guy at group and I understand what you are talking about. I don't agree with you at all as I seen both team guys and support guys do ####ed up things quite often. The only difference is that the team guys were protected more so then the little fellas that they relied on. Don't get made because I disagree with you. Its nothing more than an opinion. I'm letting you know what the city council is going to argue about. If you can't see that then all I can say is good luck to you.

[TMF]

No, I am not a stereotypical group guy. I am aware of things that were swept under the rug in the line companies and I didn't agree when it happened. I also am aware of the issues that made the blotter and had to be handled by the BN command team. There are three line companies and only one support company, yet an overwhelming number of incidents were coming from Dco. I have plenty of experience on the inner workings of both sides of the house. That isn't meant to insult or anything, but I am speaking from a whole lot of experience on the matter.

Secondly, although I disagree with your assessment that Soldiers are a danger to the community, I respect your input regarding what Council members may counter with.

I don't see any reason to continue straying from the original purpose of his thread. Let's try to keep it related to that. I realize that I have contributed to getting off topic but lets try to keep t relevant from here on out. If you feel you have a grievance please feel free to PM me.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I'm sure there are good and not so good "Group guys", but they aren't much different from the ones I've known.

I doubt there are that many from Campbell who have a screw loose. Most of the soldiers I know and have known

are damned good guys, and any few who make it to the screwed up zone won't be around long. I don't know anything

about the internal politics and don't really care. There will always be a nut or two, out in society. Why always factor

that in to make something bad for all?

The issue of a responsible permit carrying individual at parks in Clarksville should be resolved in our favor. I just

have my doubts the way Clarksville's leadership has turned. I kind of have my doubts the previous mayor would

have let it happen, but I will ask my counselman to vote in favor.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

No, I am not a stereotypical group guy. I am aware of things that were swept under the rug in the line companies and I didn't agree when it happened. I also am aware of the issues that made the blotter and had to be handled by the BN command team. There are three line companies and only one support company, yet an overwhelming number of incidents were coming from Dco. I have plenty of experience on the inner workings of both sides of the house. That isn't meant to insult or anything, but I am speaking from a whole lot of experience on the matter.

Secondly, although I disagree with your assessment that Soldiers are a danger to the community, I respect your input regarding what Council members may counter with.

I don't see any reason to continue straying from the original purpose of his thread. Let's try to keep it related to that. I realize that I have contributed to getting off topic but lets try to keep t relevant from here on out. If you feel you have a grievance please feel free to PM me.

No issues at all from my side. My whole intent was to play devils advocate and help you prepare your argument. I would recommend that you get statistics and examples of other states that allow their citizens the carry in their state and county parks. Use numbers to prove why you should. If you do that I think you will increase your chances of success. Again, the old clarksville people are scared of the Military and will use the same argument I brought up in an attempt to shut your efforts out. Good luck to you.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Hey!. I'm old Clarksville and, no, we aren't scared of the military. There are, however, too many liberals

in Clarksville government who seem to think they know better than we how to deal with life. Been here

all my life, friend. Have a lot of friends on post, also.

[JayC]

My Daughter plays soccer under MCSA and they play at heritage Park. As much as I support persons that can conceal carry around I'm don't think I would support all parks. There are too many hot headed parents and it invites problems. However, this is my opinion and perhaps a clause when speaking with the City Council. There are just too many people who are law abiding and can get a CCP who are not of sound mind in our community.

And what are the chances that some other hot head, who doesn't have ro can't get a HCP is the one to whip out a pistol? You'd ask everybody else to be unarmed and unable to defend themselves and their families?

Here is a little secret, people who have hot heads where they'll pull a gun to resolve a dispute at a softball game likely don't have a HCP because they likely have a criminal background already prohibiting them from getting one.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

Hey!. I'm old Clarksville and, no, we aren't scared of the military. There are, however, too many liberals

in Clarksville government who seem to think they know better than we how to deal with life. Been here

all my life, friend. Have a lot of friends on post, also.

Those "old Clarksville" people I was referring to are those in the government.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

And what are the chances that some other hot head, who doesn't have ro can't get a HCP is the one to whip out a pistol? You'd ask everybody else to be unarmed and unable to defend themselves and their families?

Here is a little secret, people who have hot heads where they'll pull a gun to resolve a dispute at a softball game likely don't have a HCP because they likely have a criminal background already prohibiting them from getting one.

That is a great argument.....I stand by my original feelings. There are some places where it should not be permitted.

[TMF]

Anyone else got anything back from their Ward Rep on this? Still need to get at least 4 emails out to your respective reps for those who want to have this proposed after the New Year.

[DMark]

From my conversation with my Councilman he explained that the Chief supported opting out a few years ago, making carry in all Clarksville parks illegal. I'm not trying to trash him, just passing along what I heard.....

As a follow-up. What the Chief expressed both in public and private is an all or nothing with the city council.

His point was if you are going to limit carry - - - limit all carry in all parks. If you are going to allow carry in some parks, allow carry in all parks. Don't make exceptions because it causes confusion in regard to enforcement for his department and understanding of the law by the public.

The problem is the city council which treated this issue like a zoning law matter.

[TMF]

As a follow-up. What the Chief expressed both in public and private is an all or nothing with the city council.

His point was if you are going to limit carry - - - limit all carry in all parks. If you are going to allow carry in some parks, allow carry in all parks. Don't make exceptions because it causes confusion in regard to enforcement for his department and understanding of the law by the public.

The problem is the city council which treated this issue like a zoning law matter.

Thank you for the insight DMark. I absolutely agree with him in that respect. My concern is a little two-fold. First I don't think there should be any ordinance banning carry in parks unless they plan on staffing them all day with LEOs. They've been having bike patrols down at Liberty since its opening, which is fine, but I doubt they'll keep that up once the luster fades off. Even for major events at Riverside I feel pretty comfortable not carrying due to the level of law enforcement presence. For the most part, however, there is not any law enforcement presence at these parks. I would feel more comfortable taking my kids to these places if I knew I could defend myself. Some parks in Clarksville tend to have a vagrancy problem, albeit not in the big three on the list, but that could change.

The other issue is the murkiness of the law. There is no easy way for Clarksvillians to find out that carry in certain parks is banned. I just happened to read an article a long time ago that mentioned they had repealed the choice to "opt out" but were still going to restrict certain parks. Had I not read that article I would have just assumed that all parks are good for carry when they decided to "opt out". I think I am the minority of HCP holders in Clarksville that are actually aware of the law. This leads me to be concerned for the HCP community if the CPD decides they are going to enforce that law or a MWG call comes in on some poor fella that had no idea he was doing anything wrong.

Bringing attention to it might disrupt the status-quo and have an opposite effect of what I'm trying to achieve, but then again, it won't be a problem until it's a problem. I don't see the harm in making our elected officials get proactive about it. Of course, if it is clear that our elected officials are opposed to it then we'll just couch it and wait until next year instead of making a stink. The problem with that is hardly anyone here is willing to find out from the people that represent them. I'm aware of two that are for and two that are against. If there are 4 more Councilmen out of the remain 8 that are cool with this I think we should move forward.... how to get there without participation?

[DMark]

TMF 18B,

Agree with all you stated. "Murkiness" of the law doesn't do anybody any good. From my undergrad education in political science, I know that this will require the council members to do something they hate to do - - - admit that they passed a poor law. The best way to fix this will be a low-key effort that lets the professional politicans off the hook by passing a correction that is hidden inside a bigger bill.