Clarksville Parks Carry Thread

[TMF]

Hey all, I wanted to put feelers out there to see if my fellow Clarksvillians want to change the currents laws on legal carry in Clarksville parks. As some of you may be aware it is legal to carry in Clarksville parks with the exception of about a dozen. Of those dozen are included the major parks such as Heritage, McGregor and the newly reopened Liberty Park. I take my kids to all of them and have to leave my pistol at home when I do. I don't like having to do this, and now that I frequent Liberty Park with my kids I'm wanting to get this law changed to include all parks.

So far I haven't heard of any cases where a HCP holder has been charged for carrying in these parks. It has been theorized that since these parks aren't legally posted the carrier won't be prosecuted, however, the Chief of Police has made it clear that he opposes carry in parks so I would say it is safe to assume his officers will make an arrest on a MWG call if someone sees you carrying. I certainly don't want to be arrested, especially with my kids present so I'm not going to test the waters on this and don't expect anyone else to. I just want the law changed so there is no ambiguity.

I contacted my City Councilman the other day to ask his opinion on the matter. His opinion is that carry should be legal in all parks, and he would absolutely draft a resolution to change the law at the start of the new year so long as he believes he'll have enough votes to pass it. He asked that folks I know living in other wards contact their Councilman and get their opinions on the issue.

The way we can do this is use this thread as a living, breathing document to keep track of the status of this. Below I'll have a list of all the Councilmen, their ward, contact information and where they stand on the issue. I'll need you folks to contact your respective Councilman and make a post on where they stand. I'll update this first post as info comes in.

Please do your best to come off as cordial as possible when contacting your Councilman. The last thing we want is them to percieve us as gun nuts wanting to OC our Draco pistols around and scare the children. Let's make this about logic, and how illogical it is to assume criminals will obey a law if they are already intent on breaking a more serious law.

If you are in on this then throw up a post and let everyone know so we all know who is going to help on this effort. Thanks guys.

Here is the info:

WARD 1: Nick Steward, ward1@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 2: Deanna McLaughlin, ward2@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 3: James R. Lewis, ward3@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 4: Wallace Redd, ward4@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 5: Candy Johnson, ward5@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 6: Marc Harris, ward6@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 7: Geno Grubbs, ward7@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 8: David Allen, ward8@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 9: Joel Wallace, ward9@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: PRO-CARRY

WARD 10: Bill Summers, ward10@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 11: Kaye Jones, ward11@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: UNK

WARD 12: Jeff Burkhart, ward12@cityofclarksville.com OPINION: PRO-CARRY

Here is a link to the ward map: http://www.cmcrpc.com/maps/City Council Wards 2011.pdf

Here is a link to the City Council Member contact page: http://www.cityofclarksville.com/citycouncil/

Please post if you're in and continue to post to keep us updated on where your Councilman stands. If we get enough votes we will change this next year. Thanks guys.

Edited June 20, 2012 by TMF 18B

[TMF]

Alright Clarksvillians, I figured I'd give it a week and a half so folks could have time to contact their city rep, but it appears that there is zero interest in having this law changed. I am quite surprised, to be honest. I see so many posts which advocate action at the local level, and yet, here we are with the opportunity to have a BS law changed and no one can take the 10 minutes out of their day to compose and email.

I can't think of a better place than TGO to reach HCP holders and motivate a change in the law. There are several dozen active members here that call Clarksville their home. If there is no interest here I don't believe there is anywhere else where I could solicit any interest. So here it is, we are going to capitulate to the bedwetters that made this law because we simply can't back up our words with action. I'll be contacting my Councilman now to let him know that drafting a resolution is a task that is pointless. That is all.

[Guest colombianito1021]

I just found this thread. Have you drafted an email to send?

[TMF]

I just found this thread. Have you drafted an email to send?

I sent my email to my Councilman, Mr. Wallace. It was personal to my situation, similar to the first post regarding taking my children to parks that are not posted, yet could result in being arrested if caught carrying. I expressed my dislike for the law as well as the ambiguity of the law. I recieved a call from him a short time later where we discussed the situation and he came up with some ideas to correct the problem. He doesn't like the law either, but isn't going to hang himself out there if it's obvious that the other Councilmembers won't carry it. I don't blame him; especially if it is clear that the constituents of the other wards don't have any interest in having the law changed; for example, those Clarksvillians on TGO that aren't willing to find out the position of their elected representative on the City Council. I would say the best way to draft a letter is to point out the existing law, the issues created amongst the carry community due to it's ambiguity and discuss how the criminal element would ignore such laws anyway, as committing a crime with a firearm is far more severe than carrying past a sign and, therefore, will prevent zero crime from taking place; it will only prevent law abiding HCP holders from defending themselves. It wouldn't hurt to mention that HCP holders must apply for the permit, undergo formal training and a relatively extensive background check.

The Chief of Police here has made it clear that he does not want HCP holders carrying in parks. This makes me believe that he will have his officers arrest a HCP holder for carrying in a restricted park. Perhaps that individual will escape charges, but who wants the metal bracelets slapped on them with their two kids there? Not me. The problem is that it is illegal to carry in some parks (mostly the major ones) but there is not an easy place to find out which ones are illegal to carry in. There are no postings, to my knowledge, other than the Bark Park at Heritage. There is also nothing on the Parks and Recreation site which mentions which parks are legal to carry in. My concern is that some HCP holders take their chances and carry anyways, knowing that the DA won't charge them if arrested, but who wants to go through that trouble? The answer is to have the law changed, or at a minimum have the parks properly posted. Nobody wants that to happen, but dammit, we should have a right to know what laws are out there even if we don't approve of those laws. I can gaurantee that the parks will be properly posted after the first incident with a HCP holder. We shouldn't wait for that to happen. We don't have to. But like I said above, there are a lot of folks on this site that talk a lot about changing things at the local level, but when the time comes it's just b!tching on the internet. I expected more from the outspoken HCP holders on this site. I am truly disappointed.

The email I sent:

Mr. Wallace,

As a resident of Ward 9 I wanted to bring to your attention my concern regarding the ambiguity of legal handgun carry laws in Clarksville parks. I am aware that a bill was passed which made it legal for permit holders to carry in Clarksville parks, however, I am also aware that some parks in Clarksville still prohibit legal handgun carry. I have searched the City of Clarksville website as well as the Clarksville Parks and Recreation sites in an effort to determine which parks are prohibited, but I have found nothing indicating this. Now that Liberty Park is open again I made sure to look for signs and on the city website for information regarding legalities and have not found any. In fact, there is a sign posted at Liberty Park which instructs park goers to log on to cityofclarksville.com for park rules.

The reason this is a concern of mine is because I legally carry a handgun when in public as I take very seriously my responsibility to protect my family. I used to leave my handgun in my vehicle when taking my kids to the parks until I found myself confronted by two individuals under the influence of a controlled substance while taking my young son to see the train at Dixon park. I was surprised that I would find myself in such a situation in the middle of the day and so close to where police officers frequent, as the maintenance station is next to the park. After that I will never sacrifice the safety of my children for the irrational rules set in place by folks that don't understand criminal nature, as a sign or rule preventing legal handgun carry will not deter someone who is already illegally carrying a weapon. It will only deter law abiding folks like me from carrying or patronizing these parks.

I would like to continue to take my kids to Clarksville parks, but want to make sure that I am not breaking the law in doing so. I would appreciate it if you could bring to the attention of the Safety Council that law abiding folks like myself are being set up to unwittingly break the law, or if you could get the opinion of the Chief of Police as to whether or not a crime is being committed by legally carrying in a park that is not posted at location or on the City of Clarksville website. Thank you very much, Sir.

Edited June 20, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest FIST]

I have sent my email to Mr Burkhart for district 12, waiting for a reply still.

Edited June 20, 2012 by FIST

[Guest 270win]

What is the Chief of Police in Clarksville afraid of? What makes a park different than church, Kroger, Wal Mart? I would honestly not ask the parks to be 'properly posted' under 39-17-1311. Someone has done that with the Germantown (Memphis) parks. You don't want that because you want something for people with permits to fall back on in the event they are cited or arrested. It would be a lot easier to dismiss without the proper signs.

If the guy with the Draco in middle TN didn't pull his stunt and get on the news, and a few others in populated areas wanting to make a political statement by openly carrying, I doubt you'd see these signs.

Edited June 20, 2012 by 270win

[Guest FIST]

Mr. Burkhart in district 12 supports it.

[TMF]

Mr. Burkhart in district 12 supports it.

Splash. First post updated to reflect that. Thanks Fister. 10 more to go.

[TMF]

What is the Chief of Police in Clarksville afraid of? What makes a park different than church, Kroger, Wal Mart? I would honestly not ask the parks to be 'properly posted' under 39-17-1311. Someone has done that with the Germantown (Memphis) parks. You don't want that because you want something for people with permits to fall back on in the event they are cited or arrested. It would be a lot easier to dismiss without the proper signs.

On one hand I don't want the parks posted because it gives a clear defense to a HCP holder in the event he is charged. However, with the knowledge that someone who is made will still have to face the legal system isn't a good solution. If I didn't have a family I probably wouldn't have a problem testing the system. I know that the DA won't press charges on someone carrying in the parks, but I'm also certain that if a MWG call comes in the popo is going to roll up the HCP holder. This means a great legal inconvenience for the HCP holder, and who knows, maybe the LE will petition to have his permit revoked. It shouldn't be this way. The current answer isn't the right answer. Plus I'm still not going to carry if I know it is illegal; I don't have time for that sort of problem. Others may but I won't. I'd rather just have the law changed.

[Guest colombianito1021]

I have email Mr. Steward, Ward 1. I will update with his response.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I thought I posted on this. Guess I didn't.

Chief should be keeping his mouth shut.

It's not for him to make laws.

With "I'm for Kim" in charge, she will

side with the chief. I hope, but doubt,

there will be enough votes on the

city counsel to make this happen.

Clarksville has had a couple real

good mayors in the past, but not this

time. Her vote will be anti.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited June 21, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I'll make a couple calls.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TMF]

I thought I posted on this. Guess I didn't.

Chief should be keeping his mouth shut.

It's not for him to make laws.

With "I'm for Kim" in charge, she will

side with the chief. I hope, but doubt,

there will be enough votes on the

city counsel to make this happen.

Clarksville has had a couple real

good mayors in the past, but not this

time. Her vote will be anti.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We only need 6 to get this moving forward; so far we are 1/3 there. If Kim is against it that means that she has to take a position on it when it comes up. That means she's going to have to come up with a rationale to justify her position. Not something that is fun for politicians to do.... ya know, have positions on stuff. Maybe she'll "evolve". Either way, we just got to get the resolution in there to get the ball rolling. It's been almost two years since the last vote. Time to remind our elected officials that we still disagree.

[Guest FIST]

We need to ensure we have a firm date and time for the vote so we can be present.

[DMark]

..... however, the Chief of Police has made it clear that he opposes carry in parks.....

TMF 18B,

I know Chief Ansley.

If you have a reference where he has made an on the record remark that he opposes HCP in the Clarksville parks, please let me know because that sounds very out of character for him.

What I do know is that his stance on these type of matters is that his department will always enforce all laws as passed by the city council. Nothing More...., Nothing Less.

So the solution here rest with the city council members, because only they can change the local law.

Regards,

[TMF]

TMF 18B,

I know Chief Ansley.

If you have a reference where he has made an on the record remark that he opposes HCP in the Clarksville parks, please let me know because that sounds very out of character for him.

What I do know is that his stance on these type of matters is that his department will always enforce all laws as passed by the city council. Nothing More...., Nothing Less.

So the solution here rest with the city council members, because only they can change the local law.

Regards,

From my conversation with my Councilman he explained that the Chief supported opting out a few years ago, making carry in all Clarksville parks illegal. I'm not trying to trash him, just passing along what I heard. I don't see why my Councilman would make that up, so I took it as true. I understand that LE will enforce the law, however, if this is accurate than he was supporting the passing of a law that didn't exist that would prevent lawful carry in parks. I interpret that to be unsupportive of HCP privileges and believe that if that is his stance his officers will make an arrest regardless of postings or lack thereof.

You're right, the choice is with the Council members which is the point of this thread. My remarks regarding the Chief were to highlight to folks that the status quo will cause HCP holders to unwittingly break the law which will most likely result in their arrest based on what I just mentioned above.

Edited June 21, 2012 by TMF 18B

[TMF]

We need to ensure we have a firm date and time for the vote so we can be present.

I would say that is a good idea. It'll be sometime after the New Year. Of course, no carry is allowed at the meetings, ironically.

[DaveS]

I'd just speak to city councel in person....

[TMF]

I'd just speak to city councel in person....

I'm not a gov expert but I don't think it'll get resolved by bringing up at a meeting out of the blue. Something like this that will draw controversy from the sheep needs to be planned out a little better. If we address it now and find out where everyone stands then we have a better chance of getting this pushed through. I think that if the Council was blindsided at a meeting without all the facts it would not work in our favor.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

My Daughter plays soccer under MCSA and they play at heritage Park. As much as I support persons that can conceal carry around I'm don't think I would support all parks. There are too many hot headed parents and it invites problems. However, this is my opinion and perhaps a clause when speaking with the City Council. There are just too many people who are law abiding and can get a CCP who are not of sound mind in our community.

[TMF]

My Daughter plays soccer under MCSA and they play at heritage Park. As much as I support persons that can conceal carry around I'm don't think I would support all parks. There are too many hot headed parents and it invites problems. However, this is my opinion and perhaps a clause when speaking with the City Council. There are just too many people who are law abiding and can get a CCP who are not of sound mind in our community.

I understand what you're saying, but where is the line drawn? I would like to believe that anyone who is irresponsible enough to pull a weapon over a kids' soccer game would also be irresponsible enough to carry in a prohibited location. Keep in mind, Heritage isn't posted other than the Bark Park, and most HCP holders aren't aware that Heritage Park is prohibited.

I don't think allowing legal carry there would be putting any children at risk. I know that there are hot headed parents out there, but those stories you see on the news isn't the norm. Just another thing the media has sensationalized with a few outrageous stories.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's interesting. I've only seen hot heads at little league baseball. didn't know the soccer crowd was like that.

We just had fun when I was coaching the young 'ens.

The parents of the players knew more about baseball than I did. I always wondered why they weren't the coach.

[Guest adamoxtwo]

I understand what you're saying, but where is the line drawn? I would like to believe that anyone who is irresponsible enough to pull a weapon over a kids' soccer game would also be irresponsible enough to carry in a prohibited location. Keep in mind, Heritage isn't posted other than the Bark Park, and most HCP holders aren't aware that Heritage Park is prohibited.

I don't think allowing legal carry there would be putting any children at risk. I know that there are hot headed parents out there, but those stories you see on the news isn't the norm. Just another thing the media has sensationalized with a few outrageous stories.

A soldier only needs an officer to sign that he is trained to carry concealed and they do not have to take the classes (hence a lack of understanding of the rules). As a retired soldier, I want them protecting me, but there has to be a line. Soldiers today are not what the use to be and them coming back from War with the neglected psychological, drug, and alcohol issues are scary enough. Now let them carry a gun on their persons here. I'm not saying that all shouldn't be allowed, but there should be stipulations for those with CCP like a Psych review from a third party once they return from Combat. I don't know much, and I'm sure I don't have the answer. I just have concerns that soldiers are not being protected enough these days from themselves. I promise you that this will be a big part of the city council's issues with allowing this.

[Guest FIST]

A soldier only needs an officer to sign that he is trained to carry concealed and they do not have to take the classes (hence a lack of understanding of the rules). As a retired soldier, I want them protecting me, but there has to be a line. Soldiers today are not what the use to be and them coming back from War with the neglected psychological, drug, and alcohol issues are scary enough. Now let them carry a gun on their persons here. I'm not saying that all shouldn't be allowed, but there should be stipulations for those with CCP like a Psych review from a third party once they return from Combat. I don't know much, and I'm sure I don't have the answer. I just have concerns that soldiers are not being protected enough these days from themselves. I promise you that this will be a big part of the city council's issues with allowing this.

Really? First it's not any officer but your commanding officer that would sign a memo if that's the route you choose (Most commanders will laugh a Soldier away if they ask for it). Secondly how does a class that spends 4 hours on basic laws and 4 hours of range time more effective than me putting in the work at the range and in the law books on my time? The class in no way makes an individual more prepared to carry than someone who does the work on their own. I'll take my time spent studying laws on my own over some Joe schmoe who went to the class and was the last time they shot or studied HCP laws. To state that Soldiers coming back from wherever have "neglected issues" is silly. The Army spends a ridiculous amount of money on programs to assist Soldiers with their issues and if a service member chooses to lie or under state their issues then it's no one's fault but theirs. A psych review from a third party is ridiculous, why isn't the professional that does the work for the Army not good enough? I have more concern that idiots behind a steering wheel will hurt my family or myself before a Soldier returning from combat would. Don't short change today's Soldiers, all elements of society have Idiots and the Army is not an exception but the majority of Soldiers that pursue HCP permits are just as responsible as you or me.

Edited June 22, 2012 by FIST

[TMF]

I don't see a commander signing off on a problem Soldier. It just ain't gonna happen. If anything getting the approval from the COC is harder than going the regular route, as this route is more subjective and must pass multiple layers as opposed to a course you're paying for.

If a private wants his commander to sign something it's gonna go to his first line leader and then to platoon leadership. Those folks would knock that down off the bat if the Soldier had issues. Then it's going to go up to the command team, and the 1SG definitely knows who his problem Soldiers are. Then you have the Commander who has worked hard to get to where he is and understands that he is responsible for everything the unit does or fails to do. He ain't rubber stamping something if he thinks private snuffy is gonna get into a drunken shoot out over a soccer game.

Like I said above, folks that would engage in that sort of impulsive behavior are not going to pay attention to the laws anyway. All the more reason for me to be armed to protect my family.

I am one of those folks who got the permit with a memo from the Commander. I took it upon myself to learn the laws. Someone that doesn't do that is responsible for themselves. I am not responsible for them and shouldn't be lumped into that category.

Edited June 22, 2012 by TMF 18B