Tactical Response - Fighting Pistol

[TGO David]

Back to the subject at hand, 101 your post reads less like an AAR and more like a promotional. Whatever. Glad you found the class enjoyable. That being said...

Expect to take some rib jabbing if you’re not running a Glock 9MM, or a 9MM of any make. I was told I was compensating for a shortcoming in other areas. Kayla will be sure to let you know what she thinks about that for sure.

Those guys and anyone else can go #### themselves if they want to rib me for bringing a sidearm other than one in the Blessed Chosen Caliber. Do I have a Glock 19? You bet. Do I trust it? You bet. Do I think that the 9mm is the end-all be all of fighting pistol cartridges? No. Because that sort of narrow-minded chest pounding bull#### is no different than people who think the 1911 is the pinnacle of handgun art, or that an AK-47 is the best fighting rifle ever made, or that the Model T is the best car ever to touch four wheels to the ground.

As long the handgun I bring doesn't cause a safety issue or cause anyone else's training to suffer, there's no reason for anyone to open their mouth and say a damn thing about it.

Stuff like this just reaffirms my belief that I'm not missing anything by not having trained there. I just don't think I'm "tactical" enough for it.

[Reservoir Dog]

You can stow that ####. If people don't want counter opinions, they don't need to start threads on a forum. Period.

I fail to see what Yeager did years ago in Iraq has to do with someone posting an AAR about their impressions of a training class at Tactical Response. And according to the OP, Yeager was not even one of the instructors. Yet the Yeager-haters want to immediately jump in and post stuff that is completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread. That's thread crapping, pure and simple. Those posts were out of line, and only serve to discourage people from posting future AARs about training.

Maybe you could start an "I Hate James Yeager" section here on TGO. That way, other members and site staff can post ad nauseum about their disdain for Yeager, and keep that stuff out of the technical forums on TGO.

[TGO David]

I fail to see what Yeager did years ago in Iraq has to do with someone posting an AAR about their impressions of a training class at Tactical Response. And according to the OP, Yeager was not even one of the instructors. Yet the Yeager-haters want to immediately jump in and post stuff that is completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread. That's thread crapping, pure and simple. Those posts were out of line, and only serve to discourage people from posting future AARs about training.

Maybe you could start an "I Hate James Yeager" section here on TGO. That way, other members and site staff can post ad nauseum about their disdain for Yeager, and keep that stuff out of the technical forums on TGO.

What part of people posting their relevant opinions in a thread seems like derailment to you? Maybe you just need to come to terms with the fact that there are going to be "Yeager-Haters" and deal with it.

I've met the guy, I don't have a problem with the guy personally and wouldn't let his history deter me from taking a class from him or his adjunct instructors. It's not like I'm looking for him to cover my back under fire from insurgents or expecting him to be my get-away driver so none of what may or may not have happened in Iraq really affects me as a figurative student. That being said, however, what does affect me as a figurative student are these so-called AAR's where people report back on the unnecessary chastisement (you can call it ribbing if you want, but at the end of the day it's chastisement) about the firearms that they choose to take a class with.

A class like this is the BEST place to find out if your sidearm of choice won't function well under adverse conditions. I've purposefully taken certain handguns to similar classes and abused them just to see if they were really worth carrying. As long as I'm not causing a safety concern or slowing down the class, there's no reason for any instructor anywhere to berate me or any other student and there certainly is no place for some female to make pejorative statements about any inadequacies, as the OP reported. Oh, I'm sure the nut-swingers will all say that's just "playing by Big Boy Rules" and that "students need thick skin" etc. but here's the flip side of that:

I've had the privilege to train with and under people with a level of professionalism that eclipses the need for that sort of nonsense. So-called ribbing breaks down the mutual respect between a student and instructor that fosters higher levels of trust, better communication, and prevents a student's mind from closing, ensuring that they get the maximum return on their investment from the class.

When I go to a defensive weapons class, I am not there to be subjected to a bunch of frat-boy bull#### from douchebag "Bros" who think every person who walks through the door with something other than a Glock -- or recently an M&P, which intrigues me since I've been running that platform since it came out, long before it was blessed by anyone at TR -- should be subjected to ribbing / hazing / a ration of crap because the cadre thinks they chose poorly. No, I am there first and foremost to learn and secondly to determine if my gear has weak points that need to be addressed.

A student will figure out the latter on their own without any jabs, friendly or not, from someone pontificating from a position of arrogance, when the firearm fails to go bang. And lessons learned like that are far more persuasive and more readily accepted than being taunted by the people receiving your money because you're not carrying one of their favorite brands of gun.

[Reservoir Dog]

What part of people posting their relevant opinions in a thread seems like derailment to you? Maybe you just need to come to terms with the fact that there are going to be "Yeager-Haters" and deal with it.

Did you read the deleted posts before you came into this thread? There was nothing relevant about them. The OP posted about his experience at Tactical Response with their Fighting Pistol class. The subsequent posts concerned nothing but someone's dislike for Yeager based solely on the incident in Iraq. It had nothing to do with the substance or quality of the training offered by Tactical Response, or the Fighting Pistol class. Nothing at all. It was just another way someone could whine and bitch about Yeager. I don't care if people want to complain about Yeager, but doing it in a someone's thread like that was uncalled for.

[TGO David]

Did you read the deleted posts before you came into this thread?

Are you serious?

No, I never read anything... I always just talk out of my ass.

[Reservoir Dog]

Are you serious?

No, I never read anything... I always just talk out of my ass.

Just checking, since it took you over a month to tell me to "stow that ####."

[TGO David]

Just checking, since it took you over a month to tell me to "stow that ####."

So there's now a statute of limitations and a prohibition on people posting their opinions? I'm just trying to stay up to speed on what's allowed in this thread so humor me.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Have your magazines loaded and for God’s sake……BRING YOUR GUN AND HAVE IT LOADED!!! You wouldn’t go to work without your tools of the trade. Don’t show up at a gun class without a gun loaded and ready to go. Sounds simple I know. You will be surprised how many folks are not prepared.

Well, in my 10 years of law enforcement experience including time as a firearms instructor, that is a rare requirement. In fact, at my department no loaded firearms were allowed to be brought onto the range. We cleared them as soon as we arrived on site. We kept our handguns unloaded and holstered with no mag in the pistol. Long guns were unloaded with the action open. If there was live fire to be done, we loaded on the firing line, and left the line with a clear weapon. We loaded them back up on our way off the range for the day. I've seen many civilian locations that have similar rules. I've heard of courses that will kick you out if you arrive on the range with a loaded firearm. When I took that idiotic CCW class upon moving to Tennessee (no, they said my extensive firearms training and experience wasn't sufficient since I didn't take it in Tennessee, so I got to watch that stupid video of two Highway Patrol officers who couldn't even identify the handguns lying on the table they were asked to talk about), they made it very clear that we were not to bring a loaded firearm to the classroom or onto the range. We went hot on the line right before we fired. I don't think it's fair to act as if people are dumb or ill-prepared because they follow the rules that tend to dominate in the firearms world. In fact, I would suggest that bringing loaded firearms into a training classroom is a recipe for a negligent discharge. Cops get killed every year in firearms related training "accidents" caused by people firing off "unloaded" firearms in a training class. I would have come with an empty weapon, but loaded mags.

Edited July 21, 2012 by East_TN_Patriot

[East_TN_Patriot]

I'm curious... how do they train to change magazines? I have heard they were training people to do a reload by using the slide release to let the slide go forward, drop the empty mag, insert a fresh mag, and then reload by cycling the slide by hand instead of just releasing the slide on the fresh mag to load the weapon. Is this true?

[Mike]

Find new mag, drop old one, load new one, rack slide.

[TGO David]

Well, in my 10 years of law enforcement experience including time as a firearms instructor, that is a rare requirement. In fact, at my department no loaded firearms were allowed to be brought onto the range. We cleared them as soon as we arrived on site. We kept our handguns unloaded and holstered with no mag in the pistol. Long guns were unloaded with the action open. If there was live fire to be done, we loaded on the firing line, and left the line with a clear weapon. We loaded them back up on our way off the range for the day. I've seen many civilian locations that have similar rules. I've heard of courses that will kick you out if you arrive on the range with a loaded firearm. When I took that idiotic CCW class upon moving to Tennessee (no, they said my extensive firearms training and experience wasn't sufficient since I didn't take it in Tennessee, so I got to watch that stupid video of two Highway Patrol officers who couldn't even identify the handguns lying on the table they were asked to talk about), they made it very clear that we were not to bring a loaded firearm to the classroom or onto the range. We went hot on the line right before we fired. I don't think it's fair to act as if people are dumb or ill-prepared because they follow the rules that tend to dominate in the firearms world. In fact, I would suggest that bringing loaded firearms into a training classroom is a recipe for a negligent discharge. Cops get killed every year in firearms related training "accidents" caused by people firing off "unloaded" firearms in a training class. I would have come with an empty weapon, but loaded mags.

You guys clearly aren't tactical enough.

[Reservoir Dog]

So there's now a statute of limitations and a prohibition on people posting their opinions? I'm just trying to stay up to speed on what's allowed in this thread so humor me.

http://www.tngunowne...m-participants/

Sadly, it would appear there is a statute of limitations. So much for the "moral high ground."

I'll make this my last post on this thread crapping debate, as I have also been guilty of derailing this thread, even it it was to call out the posts that had no business being here. I will say this to other prospective Tactical Response customers: Having actually taken a class there, I can honestly tell you that it is good training, and it will be money well spent. Pay no attention to the whining and bitching from people who have never been there, and only base their opinions on something that happened years ago on the other side of the world.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Reservoir Dog

[East_TN_Patriot]

Find new mag, drop old one, load new one, rack slide.

Ok, that is the way to do it. Someone somewhere either misunderstood the procedure or told it wrong.

[Superman]

An unloaded gun will get you or someone else killed. You are suppose to treat all guns as if they are loaded. What better way than to keep it loaded. That way instead of thinking it is unloaded, you know it is loaded. If you train to keep your gun unloaded, then guess what it's going to be unloaded.

[TN-popo]

An unloaded gun will get you or someone else killed. You are suppose to treat all guns as if they are loaded. What better way than to keep it loaded. That way instead of thinking it is unloaded, you know it is loaded. If you train to keep your gun unloaded, then guess what it's going to be unloaded.

loaded, unloaded...eeeh...this made my head hurt.

[TGO David]

http://www.tngunowne...m-participants/

Sadly, it would appear there is a statute of limitations. So much for the "moral high ground."

I'll make this my last post on this thread crapping debate, as I have also been guilty of derailing this thread, even it it was to call out the posts that had no business being here. I will say this to other prospective Tactical Response customers: Having actually taken a class there, I can honestly tell you that it is good training, and it will be money well spent. Pay no attention to the whining and bitching from people who have never been there, and only base their opinions on something that happened years ago on the other side of the world.

Sorry, but you're kind of reaching for straws here. My previous statements still stand but they are not and were not a mandate that people abandon their own critical thought processes and lay down their own opinions. I merely asked that people consider not crucifying the entire organization because of the actions of one person. How does that come into play here, exactly?

You seem to have a substantial erection for both Tactical Response and making me out to be the bad guy here. There's apparently no cure for the former and honestly I'm not sure there is for the latter either. Some folks just get their rocks off trying to poke the bear with a stick. Unfortunately for you, the bear stopped caring about that a long time ago. Hope you're getting what you need out of this, though. It seems like a sad existence otherwise.

[101]

Back to the subject at hand, 101 your post reads less like an AAR and more like a promotional. Whatever. Glad you found the class enjoyable. That being said...

I did find the class enjoyable, thank you. Next time I will try to do better to be more "less enthusiastic" about my experiences so I don't appear to be presenting a plug for someone or something.

I have been staring at this for a while now and I wasn't even going to respond to any of it and push this subject farther than it all ready has gone.....BUT the Force is weak within me.

I do believe that a lot of the complaints that people have, have not even taken the class or have simply misconstrued information because of lack of elaboration from the attendees, such as myself. I can't even begin to effectively explain on a forum the feelings and situations that arise during a class. I will tell you this, any good natured "ribbing" that was done was almost entirely initiated by the students and not the instructors.

I might not know very much about tactics and gun fighting but I do my best to wipe my mind clear and learn something, anything. Example: I've been a mechanic for 20 years. I thought I knew everything about changing tires (drawing my pistol); I met this other mechanic at my new job (instructor); He says "Hey why do you do it like that?" and I say "Because that's how I do it" and he says " try this way" and I say "Holy crap! That was better and more efficient!!".......

Point being this. When you think you have learned it all, you have lost the fight. I always tell any teacher or instructor to treat me like an idiot and show me all that you know. You never know when, even after 20 years, you might learn a better way to do things. You might not. If you do, great!! If you don't... hell I spent a weekend shooting with awesome folks and had a darn good time.

Also, if you can't take "rib jabbing" or "frat boy" jokes or comments then, wow, I don't really know what to say to that. I would hate to be that guy that gets out of shape because he can't take empty, meaningless criticism from people he may never see again, ever. I suppose it's the military in me, or the fact I spent my life in a garage with men, that act like children. Plus, the ones that don't like the rib jabbing comments, or tom foolery are usually the ones that are not in the "group" and feel left out. Just my thoughts.

Not liking a class (or anything you haven't tried yourself) is like saying you don't like Corvettes and have never driven one.

I see and understand where you come from Reservoir Dog, thank you. I never intended for all this to happen.

[TMF]

I don't have thin skin, but I don't like the "rib jabbing" coming from a position of an instructor unless they are fully prepared to get it back. There are a lot of folks out there with extremely abrasive personalities that have a lot of knowledge to share. With that said, most people don't have the patience to put up with that type of personality. I went to a week long pistol/carbine course with some of the best instructors on the planet. Although I learned a lot during that week, I nearly came to blows with one of the instructors because he was a smartass and couldn't take his own medicine. That distracts from the task at hand. I would let most things roll off, but I'm also a grown man, and when another grown man decides to make any degrading or insulting comments with the expectation that he will not receive them back because he is protected by his instructor status is going to be disappointed in my response.

I think that is why the "ribbing" statement invited itself to folks being averse to it. If some female decides that she is going to insinuate a small pecker comment due to the caliber of my pistol, then she should also be prepared for an invitation to test her gag reflex. In my experience women tend to find that offensive so I would assume that such "ribbing" back at the instructors would be frowned upon. This is why I don't care for that behavior, I just want to shoot and learn without the drama or BS posturing.

[sschrick]

from TMF 18B: If some female decides that she is going to insinuate a small pecker comment due to the caliber of my pistol, then she should also be prepared for an invitation to test her gag reflex

OMG, I was ROFLMAO when I read this. . .

[TGO David]

TMF, you and are are completely on the same page. Glad I'm not complete alone out in left field.

[RobertNashville]

I took the Fighting Pistol class in March of 2011. I used a very pretty, very expensive 1911 that is, allegedly, designed for carry (for the sake of feelings I'm not going to name the brand). Less than halfway through the first day the pistol was choking so badly I was spending half of my time clearing malfunctions (good practice but took me away from what I was supposed to be learning). I switched to a different 1911 and finished that day and the next day with no malfunctions other then then ones purposely introduced.

Neither of the two instructors made fun of my pretty 1911 nor suggested that a Glock was the best defensive pistol in the world.

One of the girls in the class had an HK45 (just like the one I bought from TGO David)...big gun...worked perfectly for her although I can't imaging carrying it...the instructors never made fun of her either.

I'm a big guy (read that fat) with a bit of a bum knee and not able to do all the on the ground work you do in the class...the instructors didn't chide me about being fat...they showed me how I could compensate for my weaknesses.

I learned a lot during the class...I highly recommend it. I also learned a lot at the Rage Master Tactical Pistol II class I took last Sunday and I highly recommend it...I've learned a lot form Larry Yatch at Sealed Mindset and if you've got the time and money I can highly recommend him.

I hope I learn a lot at the Fighting Rifle class I have scheduled at Tactical Response this fall.

I suggest that you take a lot of training from a lot of different instructors...if you come across one you don't like, don't take any more classes from him.

P.S.

I still have plenty of great 1911s...I love 1911s...but I now carry a G31 with a G20 or G21 as a backup; not because anyone belittled me but because my experience has shown me that my Glocks tend to go bang with a little more dependability than my 1911s. Now, if I had my old Navy issued government model 1911 that might not be the case but unfortunately, I don't have that one.

[Dennis1209]

I would like to throw a little plug in for Tactical Response myself.

I've heard some negative comments about them in the past and won't comment on them.

But today I was at the Tactical Response Store for the first time ever. I can't find anyone to purchase and/or install a set of XS Big Dot Sights on one of my Kimbers locally. If I like them, I'll get them on my other Kimber and Glock. So I took a 30 minute drive to Camden to see if they had a set of sights for it and if they would install them. I've read horror stories about having to get the factory sights off Kimbers with rail road spikes and sledge hammers.

Got there at exactly 9:58 A.M., walked through the door and immediately noticed a group of people in the back of the store. Two employees immediately greeted me as I was walking in and asked, "are you here for the training class"? No, and I explained why I was there.

We went over to the XS sight section and they were out of pistol sights, they only had shotgun / rifle sights. They were so polite and helpful. Anyway, I asked if I bought the XS sights elsewhere and brought them in, would they install them. They said sure, we have several people that would be happy to install them and it won't cost you much, we appreciate your business. WOW, I was floored!

They went on to say they were just starting a four hour pistol class at 10:00 A.M. - 2:00 P.M. and it's free and I was welcome to attend. Double WOW! Unfortunately I was pressed for time and didn't attend.

I'll tell ya this, they made one new repeat customer. Going to take their fighting pistol as soon as I can scrape enough money together the wife doesn't know about. About like the brand new Kimber CDP II .45 I got caught coming through the door with for $200.00. And still got chewed out for spending too much money

[101]

Expect to take some rib jabbing if you’re not running a Glock 9MM, or a 9MM of any make. I was told I was compensating for a shortcoming in other areas. Kayla will be sure to let you know what she thinks about that for sure.

I do believe you started that...I only picked on you for caliber because you were jokingly poking at your buddy about the 9mm being insufficient

- Yeager is my Dad. He doesn't cut me any slack either. Suck it up.

This is the reply I received from Kayla on their forums when I posted my review there (http://getoffthex.co.../m/492005117001). It is entirely true. I started the whole rib jabbing episode. It was totally consensual.

This is why I was saying that a lot of people try to convey experiences without explaining the entire situation from all sides (much like myself). RobertNashville proved the whole point of going to this class and others like it. Find out how your gear, gun and mindset is going to perform under a stressful day. The store is great and the people are awesome I just wish they had more items on hand. They sell, mainly, what you need for their classes. Which of course makes good business sense.

The training is great, the people are great, the price is right and the location is perfect.

[TMF]

TMF, you and are are completely on the same page. Glad I'm not complete alone out in left field.

Ha, yeah man, I've got a low tolerance for tough guy range talk. It's sad that tactical shooting is something I like to do now and then, but dread some of the crowd I'm sure to deal with. It was a lot easier to keep my mouth shut when it was a military environment, but at a civi event it's like nails on an effing chalkboard.

[redstategunnut]

I have trained a number of times at Tactical Response, including one class I took with my teenage son. I will train there again.