Passengers with HCP and car gets pulled over

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I don't disagree that in TN if you are stopped in a legal roadblock, you must show your DL if/when asked by a LEO. Although reading some of the cases in my other post, some are not setup legally, but there is no way for the motorist to know that at the time of the stop of course.

But the guy in the video was not in TN, was not asked for a DL and the road block was apparently setup by the Border Patrol not an agency normally enforcing traffic laws. He may not be going about it exactly the right way, but he is proving a point.

It is not my intent to ever, purposely or just for *****s and Giggles, give a LEO a hard time. But it is my intention not to foster the idea that is ok for the government to force, by intimidation or otherwise, a citizen to give up their rights involuntarily.

i agree 100%....

I think the Arizona Dept. Of Safety and Transportation sanctioned the BP to conduct traffic check operations using those ck points. I would also bet they had a local or state officer present. In any event thats all up to Arizona law... which I dont have a clue about. So who knows. The guy in question went thru their roadblocks at least 20 times, so if they could have detained or arrested him Im sure they would have. So there must be a reason they didnt... who knows. Im all for LEOs doing the job the right way and following the letter of the law, if they dont do that I think they should be held criminally and civilly liable.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Millions of people drive large vehicles. Our mutual friend in the explosives business drives a large vehicle. The type of vehicle driven is not probable cause for a stop.

Second, you are comparing stops in TN to check drivers' licenses (a legitimate exercise) with this BP stop to determine citizenship. They are not the same. A driver's license is a privilege, citizenship is not.

Your last statement is incomprehensible: once LE has determined someone is harmless, that is the time to subject him to a seizure? No, in that case no reason whatsoever exists to stop him and any subsequent stop will be illegal.

Wrong....

smugglers use people as decoys all the time that have cleared ck points... they eventually turn them into the mules because they have been cked so many times by LEOs they think the LEOs wont keep bothering with checking them. Thus its become customary to recheck people you think you know are clean.

[The Rabbi]

I'd like to see some LE seize and search someone determined to be harmless because "drug smugglers use people like that."

Its an absurd argument. A judge would laugh that out of court in 2 seconds. If it ever got that far.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

its called "reasonable suspicion with articulable facts"... for instance... you have stats showing you made 100 stops on a specific stretch of highway, you have arrested 75 persons for smuggling drugs using large white SUV vehicles with Texas or Illinois plates. Therefor you have reason to believe the drug smugglers are using large white SUVs with Texas or Illinois plates... right?

btw, several years ago one of the largest drug bust in this area involved an elderly couple that was using their Caddy to deliver to drug dealers on their way to church. Btw.. profiling is BS too, most successful drug mules are attractive white women between 20-35 years of age.

Edited May 23, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[The Rabbi]

Wont wash.

If you have an NRA sticker can the cops search your vehicle for illegal weapons?

A Texas court ruled no. Driving on a public road in a common vehicle is not probable cause.

[TripleDigitRide]

Btw.. profiling is BS too, most successful drug mules are attractive white women between 20-35 years of age.

With all due respect, if this is the case, why do all the Drug Task Force officers pull over the Blacks and Mexicans on I-40, west of Nashville?

I travel the stretch of 1-40, between Nashville and just west of Dickson on a regular basis, and I've done so for at least the last 5 years. The problem is, not one time have I ever seen them searching a vehicle belonging to us crackers. I'm not saying they don't pull over the whites, but at the rate I've seen, it's profiling at it's best.

I'd really be interested in the statistics of each stop made by the Drug Task Force. I'd like to know the reasoning behind each and every stop. I'd like to know how many of those stops in which a vehicle was searched actually resulted in a drug bust. I'd like to know the percentages of Whites, Blacks, Mexicans, and all others.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

btw I said successful drug mules... if you see them getting pulled over and searched then they arent very successful ...and it is all about the stats... really, they have to make all kinds of stops to be able to articulate the ones that matter.

You probably wont ever be able to get teh stats on what races do what... thats documented profiling, so you will never know... but the officers know in the back of their minds. Btw, Blacks and Mexicans smuggle... but they usually arent the ones carrying the really big loads... and almost never the money.

Edited May 23, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Wont wash.

If you have an NRA sticker can the cops search your vehicle for illegal weapons?

A Texas court ruled no. Driving on a public road in a common vehicle is not probable cause.

It has nothing to do with probable cause... it has everything to do with "Reasonable Articulable Suspicion" and it does if the "common vehicle" is a commonly used vehicle used in illegal activities and you have reason to believe That:

A crime has been committed, a crime is being committed, a crime is about to be committed AND the person about to be stopped or detained is the person whom did or is about to do a crime.

Probable cause deals with the "fair probability" that a crime has been committed and the person in question committed it. Its two totally different things my friend.

[TripleDigitRide]

Reasonable Articulable Suspicion is little more than some made-up BS, because Probable cause wasn't quite cutting the mustard in the court of law. There were too many cases being thrown out of court, because LEO's didn't quite have the Probable Cause they had first thought.

Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, by definition, means "more than a hunch", so, pulling someone over, simple because they drive a "Big White SUV", in not really RAS afterall.

[The Rabbi]

Reasonable Articulable Suspicion is little more than some made-up BS, because Probable cause wasn't quite cutting the mustard in the court of law. There were too many cases being thrown out of court, because LEO's didn't quite have the Probable Cause they had first thought.

Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, by definition, means "more than a hunch", so, pulling someone over, simple because they drive a "Big White SUV", in not really RAS afterall.

Agreed. They have to be doing something. Just like the guys with the NRA sticker.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Guys this is strictly hypothetical btw... and RAS is BS... but its usable BS to a LEO.

And it is RAS if your arrest stats back it up that big white SUVs are involved in illegal activites, especially in a particular place and time and registered in another particular place. It gives you more leadway then pc... thats all Im saying, and thats what the BP was using is RAS not PC.

Edited May 23, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

What about an investigatory stop using Reasonable Articulable Suspicion?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

btw, back to the subject at hand. I spoke to a federal agent friend of mine just a few minutes ago. He told me, the BP has jurisdiction to make any stop without PC or RAS in certain areas due to so many remote unmanned access points along our southern border. They can make a stop for no reason at all because you are on a road that ran in close proximity to one of those access points. And yes, 50 miles is close proximity.

Not coming from me, Im just passing it along.

[Guest Steelharp]

I think this thread has become truly fascinating, reading the opinions of those with experience vs. the ones that haven't been there, and what they'd do if... very educational.

[Fallguy]

btw, back to the subject at hand. I spoke to a federal agent friend of mine just a few minutes ago. He told me, the BP has jurisdiction to make any stop without PC or RAS in certain areas due to so many remote unmanned access points along our southern border. They can make a stop for no reason at all because you are on a road that ran in close proximity to one of those access points. And yes, 50 miles is close proximity.

Not coming from me, Im just passing it along.

Not that I doubt he told you that...and not that I doubt he believes it to be true. BUT...I think we all have seen many post on here where a LEO told a citizen something that turned out not be true or lawful.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

and I agree, but you have to admit. If the Border Patrol were truly doing these ck points/road blocks/ or stops illegally there would be law suits and the ACLU would be all over it... In our liberal society they simply wouldn't be able to continue. I think it falls under Homeland Security.

On the other side of it, the guy with the camera must have a pretty good "angle of aggravation" because he hasn't faced charges of some kind yet. I went to his website and watched most of his videos... its fascinating and really funny as hell.

[Fallguy]

and I agree, but you have to admit. If the Border Patrol were truly doing these ck points/road blocks/ or stops illegally there would be law suits and the ACLU would be all over it... In our liberal society they simply wouldn't be able to continue. I think it falls under Homeland Security.

That is probably true....

[TripleDigitRide]

As long as they don't use any BS tactics on me, it's all good.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I agree... any time I get stopped and they are using BS.. I kinda mess with them back, but Im in a lil different situation to be able to get by with it then any other regular citizen and its all in fun.

[The Rabbi]

Not that I doubt he told you that...and not that I doubt he believes it to be true. BUT...I think we all have seen many post on here where a LEO told a citizen something that turned out not be true or lawful.

Nah, that never happens.

As for the BP, no doubt they can set up checks wherever they want. Whether U.S. citizens, or anybody else for that matter, actually has to stop and answer their intrusive illegal questions is another story.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I think this thread has become truly fascinating, reading the opinions of those with experience vs. the ones that haven't been there, and what they'd do if... very educational.

Yep, you know I look at it from both sides. Its just hard to explain it to someone that hasn't "been there and done that".... kinda like me talking to a proven combat veteran, even though police work has smilier life threatening situations and I'd like to think I know what I'd do in combat.... but having never been there I dont have a clue how I might react. Does anyone for that matter?