Passengers with HCP and car gets pulled over

[The Rabbi]

Yeah, but try that attitude with a large male officer, and you'd be pulled from the car ASAP, possibly through the window.

And the officer would be facing disciplinary hearings. WHich is how it should be.

Notice how the guy is in control of the situation from the start, not the BP officer. I know that wouldnt sit well with LEs.

[The Rabbi]

This is my point....all he had to say was "Yes" I am a citizen....and move along...instead, he is a jerk, and holds the people behind him up...I would be PISSED if I was behind him..

Exactly the point. It is easier just to submit to authority. It is hard to stand up for one's rights. This is how dictators get control.

[Guest canynracer]

Exactly the point. It is easier just to submit to authority. It is hard to stand up for one's rights. This is how dictators get control.

to a yes or no question like are you a citizen...please, I think you are taking it to the max....

If I would have asked that dude a question like that sitting in a bar, he would have answered....

its called picking your battles

[The Rabbi]

The point is the officer had no right to ask the question, the citizen was under no obligation to answer. He was perfectly within his rights. He did not have to submit to petty harassment (and that is what it is) and intimidation.

I remember this came up in John Harris' presentation. Someone in the audience said she had been stopped and asked do you have weapons in the car. What should she say. John's advice was, you dont have to say anything at all.

[Guest canynracer]

But, what the video DOESNT show is the location of the checkpoint....she is border patrol...

if he is on a route that crosses a border, and the patrol has reason to believe it is a weak point for illegal crossings, hell yeah, answer the question or dont complain about illegal aliens, and how the government sucks cause they cant control the borders...

Like I said, I see all sides of it...I just disagree with the video as "something you should do"

[The Rabbi]

He says in the comments, it's 50 miles north of the border. If they can stop and check people there, why not in downtown LA? Why not here in Nashville? Random stops and "papers please".

Yes, it is easier and more polite to submit. I am sure passengers on the bus Rosa Parks was on wished she would just move to the back. I am sure people trying to get through downtown Peking were ticked that Tiannamen Square protestors were blocking traffic. BUt you dont get to have a just society built on civil rights and respect for the citizen that way.

[Guest canynracer]

good points...

For me, it depends on the circumstance I guess... For me, it will be a reflection of how I am treated from the start of the stop.

[Guest atomemphis]

Reminds me of this guy, just in attitude:

[ame]

[/ame]

[dralarms]

He says in the comments, it's 50 miles north of the border. If they can stop and check people there, why not in downtown LA? Why not here in Nashville? Random stops and "papers please".

Yes, it is easier and more polite to submit. I am sure passengers on the bus Rosa Parks was on wished she would just move to the back. I am sure people trying to get through downtown Peking were ticked that Tiannamen Square protestors were blocking traffic. BUt you dont get to have a just society built on civil rights and respect for the citizen that way.

OK, so I missed the "50 miles north of the border" comment and that being the case I would think they had no justification to stop him. Still he was IMHO rude. I do have to retract my earlier statement since if someone stopped me here in TN and asked me "what country was my citizensship" I'd have to tell them that they have no justification to ask that question since we were not even remotely close to a border and unless I was being detained I was leaving.

[The Rabbi]

OK, so I missed the "50 miles north of the border" comment and that being the case I would think they had no justification to stop him. Still he was IMHO rude. I do have to retract my earlier statement since if someone stopped me here in TN and asked me "what country was my citizensship" I'd have to tell them that they have no justification to ask that question since we were not even remotely close to a border and unless I was being detained I was leaving.

He was over the top to make a point, granted. But how many people here would just see this as necessary or minor?

This has been my point often with illegal immigration debates. We could stop illegals in a heartbeat. But it would mean issuing each citizen, you and me, a biometric ID with GPS attached and give police the authority to stop and search and ask for papers of anyone they wanted. And I dont think we really want to see that.

[Guest DrBoomBoom]

I agree. We're already asked for our "papers" every day, only not from the police, but from the business sector. Back in the eighties I was walking home from a friend's house at about 4am when a squad car pulled up and called me over. The officer asked to see some form of I.D. I told him I didn't have any, just went to a friend's house and was carrying cash and keys. He said he was looking for someone who fit my description and that I needed to always carry some form of I.D. I went off on him. I told him, politely, this wasn't the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. I let him know that if I was under arrest, I could prove where I was and if I was not, I wanted to simply go home. I was polite with him, he just let me go.

We have several LEO's in our family, I understand, it is a tough job and it sure makes it easier if they can just get people to voluntarily give up their rights. That's how the gun control laws started. It's a slippery slope.

These days, however, I don't carry keys and cash. I carry electronic buttons that open my car and plastic cards with magnetic strips that have all sorts of info about my life of which I'm not even aware. I'm sure all this info is used by businesses to track my spending habits, and my whereabouts. Oh, and by the way, I also carry my gun, but if I'm asked, I've got to have my papers in order (nothing in the 2nd amendment says that).

Freedom ain't free. Keeping it ain't easy, polite, or popular.

[Guest eyebedam]

The guy in that video is probably this guy here.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-PcS-s9WtQ[/ame]

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Here is what you do when stopped.

bullhocky...

If that was a legal ck point, and it probably was, the Border Patrol officer had every right to ask a simple question. In fact, and like I stress, if it was a legal ck point, they had a right to ask for identification as well. Now Im not up on Arizona law, but in Tennessee to have a "ck point" or a "road block" you HAVE to have a State Trooper present to ask for a Drivers License. Other Law Enforcement Officers can effect the "ck point" or "road block" but have to ask for ID only. To me this is a simple "Terry Stop"... using reasonable suspicion of criminality to establish a ck point or road block. Its easily articulated and defended in court, and backed by the Supreme Court decisions. The person is driving a motor vehicle, so if the ck point or road block is manned with the appropriate personnel to ask for said drivers license, you have to answer the officer asking the question.

The problem was/is the "citizen"... at least we assume he was, he never answered the question... had an attitude and controlled the situation from the very start. The officer felt threatened the first time she looked at the camera. She was intimidated by it, why? Another more seasoned officer would have handled it differently.

The camera can be your friend as easily as your enemy. A smart officer would have used it against him.

So for instance when the officer approached the vehicle they maybe should have acted like this.... keep in mind if this was indeed a legally assembled ck point!!!

When the officer asked him a question, and he didn't reply... because the window was up.... I would have said... "Sir, I need to speak with you can you please roll down the window"?

Then I would have told him my name, rank, and what agency I worked for and what the reason for the stop was. I would have then asked him...

"Sir I need to see some I identification please".... When he came up with all that other stuff like..."Am I being detained"? "Am I free to go"...

I would have Asked him again... "Sir I need to see some identification please".... Then when he still didn't comply.... "Sir, do you understand English"? I would say in Spanish "Compreder Ingles?... Compreder Espanol?".... The guy would probably be frustrated at this point not knowing what to do because I would have shifted the situation in my favor on camera... But then at the last minute you think the guy looked familiar you might ask him... "Aquello tu Rabino"?

When you find out its not your friend... then you continue asking for his Identification like this.... in which ever language he used immediately after you asked the earlier questions.

So then you ask... "Sir, Im giving you a lawful order, I need to see your Identification please, If you refuse to obey the lawful order and show proof of Identification I will have to assume you have none and you could be an alien illegally in these United States"...

Keep in mind this is all caught on camera by this guy, and if a ck point/road block is set up properly it should be caught on your police cameras as well. In any event by this time there should be another officer approaching to see what the problem is so now you have a witness. Then you ask the guy, "Sir is there anything I can say to get you to cooperate with me and show me some Identification"?....

If he's still noncomplying, and you feel he may be a danger to the public or citizens of the United States because it appears he's hiding something, maybe a weapon... AND YOU HAVE “specific and articulable facts” backing you up. You then use whatever appropriate lawful force necessary to remove him from the vehicle and place him under arrest for the appropriate lawful charge. And at this point, there are probably several laws you can articulate that he has broken. Keep in mind, this all depends on if its a lawful ck point, roadblock, or stop. You have to have a reason to assemble the ck point, roadblock, or stop. And you have to follow all appropriate laws and or rules... which I'm no longer up to date on, but an officer in that position should be.

So see, all the guy had to do is answer a question. So now this guy goes to jail for probably being nothing more then a stupid azzhole. Deservingly, maybe... maybe not, it depends on your opinion.

You guys have to understand. LEO's have a job to do, doing that job correctly means our country is safer... period. Im all for protecting citizens rights, but you can protect them and be a responsible citizen as well. If you refuse to act like a responsible citizen, and start acting like a criminal then why get offended when your treated like one?

Edited May 23, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Fallguy]

Here are some interesting links about roadblocks in TN.

It seems the "standard" is TN Department of Safety General Order 410

There have been cases where it was followed and those where it wasn't.

http://tinyurl.com/6xzvhg

http://tinyurl.com/5nrws5

http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/opinions/tcca/pdf/954/hagy.pdf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3843/is_199901/ai_n8837557

[The Rabbi]

bullhocky...

If that was a legal ck point, and it probably was, the Border Patrol officer had every right to ask a simple question. In fact, and like I stress, if it was a legal ck point, they had a right to ask for identification as well. Now Im not up on Arizona law, but in Tennessee to have a "ck point" or a "road block" you HAVE to have a State Trooper present to ask for a Drivers License. Other Law Enforcement Officers can effect the "ck point" or "road block" but have to ask for ID only. To me this is a simple "Terry Stop"... using reasonable suspicion of criminality to establish a ck point or road block. Its easily articulated and defended in court, and backed by the Supreme Court decisions. The person is driving a motor vehicle, so if the ck point or road block is manned with the appropriate personnel to ask for said drivers license, you have to answer the officer asking the question.

The problem was/is the "citizen"... at least we assume he was, he never answered the question... had an attitude and controlled the situation from the very start. The officer felt threatened the first time she looked at the camera. She was intimidated by it, why? Another more seasoned officer would have handled it differently.

The camera can be your friend as easily as your enemy. A smart officer would have used it against him.

So for instance when the officer approached the vehicle they maybe should have acted like this.... keep in mind if this was indeed a legally assembled ck point!!!

When the officer asked him a question, and he didn't reply... because the window was up.... I would have said... "Sir, I need to speak with you can you please roll down the window"?

Then I would have told him my name, rank, and what agency I worked for and what the reason for the stop was. I would have then asked him...

"Sir I need to see some I identification please".... When he came up with all that other stuff like..."Am I being detained"? "Am I free to go"...

I would have Asked him again... "Sir I need to see some identification please".... Then when he still didn't comply.... "Sir, do you understand English"? I would say in Spanish "Compreder Ingles?... Compreder Espanol?".... The guy would probably be frustrated at this point not knowing what to do because I would have shifted the situation in my favor on camera... But then at the last minute you think the guy looked familiar you might ask him... "Aquello tu Rabino"?

When you find out its not your friend... then you continue asking for his Identification like this.... in which ever language he used immediately after you asked the earlier questions.

So then you ask... "Sir, Im giving you a lawful order, I need to see your Identification please, If you refuse to obey the lawful order and show proof of Identification I will have to assume you have none and you could be an alien illegally in these United States"...

Keep in mind this is all caught on camera by this guy, and if a ck point/road block is set up properly it should be caught on your police cameras as well. In any event by this time there should be another officer approaching to see what the problem is so now you have a witness. Then you ask the guy, "Sir is there anything I can say to get you to cooperate with me and show me some Identification"?....

If he's still noncomplying, and you feel he may be a danger to the public or citizens of the United States because it appears he's hiding something, maybe a weapon... AND YOU HAVE “specific and articulable facts†backing you up. You then use whatever appropriate lawful force necessary to remove him from the vehicle and place him under arrest for the appropriate lawful charge. And at this point, there are probably several laws you can articulate that he has broken. Keep in mind, this all depends on if its a lawful ck point, roadblock, or stop. You have to have a reason to assemble the ck point, roadblock, or stop. And you have to follow all appropriate laws and or rules... which I'm no longer up to date on, but an officer in that position should be.

So see, all the guy had to do is answer a question. So now this guy goes to jail for probably being nothing more then a stupid azzhole. Deservingly, maybe... maybe not, it depends on your opinion.

You guys have to understand. LEO's have a job to do, doing that job correctly means our country is safer... period. Im all for protecting citizens rights, but you can protect them and be a responsible citizen as well. If you refuse to act like a responsible citizen, and start acting like a criminal then why get offended when your treated like one?

Bovine scatology.

It was not a legal roadblock. It was conducted by Border Patrol, not state highway patrol. They were not looking for drivers' licenses or for drunk driving. There was no probable cause (it isnt a crime to drive on a highway). They were asking for information which they were not legally entitled to ask for. That's why the officer really had no answer. The citizen did exactly the right thing. Fighting crime does not come at the expense of civil liberties.

Had I been the motorist and you the officer I would have asked whether I was being detained. With no answer I would have continued on my way. had you escalated it you would face charges.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Rabbi, please no offense but why was it NOT a legal ck point/road block? Your just assuming it wasn't. They have a right to set them up looking for aliens illegally in the United States if they have reasonable suspicion the route is being used to transport aliens to other places in the United States. By your logic your saying DEA/Federal Judicial Drug units cant make stops of set up ck points either? If these were illegal stops then thousands of drug traffickers would be set free every day. Ever see the big white Suburbans out on 65, 24 or 40?

If it wasn't a legal ck point the dude behind the camera or your friends at the ACLU would have already done something about it.

This guy with the camera is an azzhole with a little man complex and no respect for authority

Edited May 23, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

btw... charges of what, detaining you when you refused a lawful order from a police officer when I had reasonable suspicion to believe you might be hiding aliens illegally in the United States, drugs, or weapons in your big SUV ?

[Guest kwikrnu]

What I do not understand is why the woman did not just say, "Yes, I am detaining you." The man most likely would have said, "Why am I being detained." She could then have gave a reason.

IMO, the man just wanted to find out if he was being held or not. What is so wrong with trying to understand your status? If he is detained then so be it. If he isn't then he may go. Right?

[Fallguy]

btw... charges of what, detaining you when you refused a lawful order from a police officer when I had reasonable suspicion to believe you might be hiding aliens illegally in the United States, drugs, or weapons in your big SUV ?

But how can driving a certain type vehicle or a certain roadway be "reasonable suspicion" of transporting contraband, without some other reason to suspect the person.

I also don't subscribe to the idea of being "asked" to present papers to prove residency as a lawful order.

[Guest DrBoomBoom]

Here's what the Bill of Rights to the Constitution says:

Article the sixth [Amendment IV] The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Without a warrant, probable cause, or good reason (traffic safety, etc.) it is not a lawful order.

[The Rabbi]

btw... charges of what, detaining you when you refused a lawful order from a police officer when I had reasonable suspicion to believe you might be hiding aliens illegally in the United States, drugs, or weapons in your big SUV ?

There was no reasonable suspicion/probably cause. That's the crux of the matter for me.

I suspect what rankles you more is this:

This guy with the camera is an azzhole with a little man complex and no respect for authority

Yes, he had no respect for an illegitimate authority making illegal seizures. I wouldn't myself. If it had been legitimate they would have stopped him. They didn't. They were 50 miles inside the U.S. That isn't border patrol anymore. It was not a permanent stopping place. That makes a difference. As for the drug patrols along I40, I assume they are acting pursuant to tip-offs and other information, not randomly stopping people who look a little funny.

[Guest atomemphis]

Here's a little background on those: When the flip the spotlight on the cars, they can't make out facial features... Only race.

It is considered profiling, and they know it.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

But how can driving a certain type vehicle or a certain roadway be "reasonable suspicion" of transporting contraband, without some other reason to suspect the person.

I also don't subscribe to the idea of being "asked" to present papers to prove residency as a lawful order.

First of all let me say this. This guy with the camera appears to have nothing better to do then go and find every ck point set up by federal agents in Arizona... I mean thats all he appears to do, run around with a video camera all day long.

This is IMHO and from my experience...most "large contraband" is smuggled or shipped in large vehicles. So the vehicle this guy chooses to drive around in is exactly the type of vehicle the BP is looking for. He is driving on a route used by smugglers and the BP has arrested multiple smugglers on this roadway. They aren't targeting him... they are stopping vehicles at random and asking for information. He chooses to keep going thru their road blocks... if they were smart they would just waive him by and dont give him any attention. They have now made contact with him and determined he's harmless. But that in it's self could be an even better reason to stop him.

Now again, they may not have the right to do so in Arizona... I dont know. But here in Tennessee if a THP Trooper Supervisor sets up a roadblock to confirm drivers licenses... A Trooper is on the scene ... they can ask random vehicle drivers for TNDL... and if you are the "unlucky" person that gets asked.... I dare you not to tell them.

If you refuse to answer them, then you can be arrested for driving without a license, Tn motorists are required to show their Drivers license to a police officer if asked for it. Your refusal to answer imply you don't have one. If your refusal continues then you can be arrested for disorderly conduct. If the officer asked you to get out of the vehicle and you refuse... then your resisting arrest.... and it can go on and on and on....

In short... and I'm all for protecting rights, but why be so reluctant to help LEOs. Their jobs are tough enough, they dont need to be made tougher just for giggles and hocky.

Edited May 23, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Fallguy]

I don't disagree that in TN if you are stopped in a legal roadblock, you must show your DL if/when asked by a LEO. Although reading some of the cases in my other post, some are not setup legally, but there is no way for the motorist to know that at the time of the stop of course.

But the guy in the video was not in TN, was not asked for a DL and the road block was apparently setup by the Border Patrol not an agency normally enforcing traffic laws. He may not be going about it exactly the right way, but he is proving a point.

It is not my intent to ever, purposely or just for *****s and Giggles, give a LEO a hard time. But it is my intention not to foster the idea that is ok for the government to force, by intimidation or otherwise, a citizen to give up their rights involuntarily.

[The Rabbi]

This is IMHO and from my experience...most "large contraband" is smuggled or shipped in large vehicles. So the vehicle this guy chooses to drive around in is exactly the type of vehicle the BP is looking for. He is driving on a route used by smugglers and the BP has arrested multiple smugglers on this roadway. They aren't targeting him... they are stopping vehicles at random and asking for information. He chooses to keep going thru their road blocks... if they were smart they would just waive him by and dont give him any attention. They have now made contact with him and determined he's harmless. But that in it's self could be an even better reason to stop him.

Millions of people drive large vehicles. Our mutual friend in the explosives business drives a large vehicle. The type of vehicle driven is not probable cause for a stop.

Second, you are comparing stops in TN to check drivers' licenses (a legitimate exercise) with this BP stop to determine citizenship. They are not the same. A driver's license is a privilege, citizenship is not.

Your last statement is incomprehensible: once LE has determined someone is harmless, that is the time to subject him to a seizure? No, in that case no reason whatsoever exists to stop him and any subsequent stop will be illegal.