Passengers with HCP and car gets pulled over

[Guest 270win]

Unless asked for a permit, i do not volunteer the fact that I am armed. They will find out if they run my DL. It does not make a lot of sense to tell what what they will know when scanning my DL in the police car's computer or calling the DL number into dispatch. If a passenger, again I do not say anything because I do not want some cop on a power trip messing with my handgun.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Man I cant believe some of you guys lack of respect and willingness to make a LEO's job easier. Why cant you just make them feel a little more secure about them stopping you. I mean whats the big freaking deal? Sure you don't have to tell them crap, if you want to get technical about it... but just remember, speeding starts at 1mph over the limit. Just imagine if LEO really enforced the speeding laws? Most of the stops you guys are referring to is with you approaching speeds that would constitute careless or reckless driving. That being said they give all of us breaks all the time. So why break out the bad attitude and the lack of courtesy. Most officers aren't out there just for craps and giggles to be a traffic Nazi. Most of the time they are taken away from real police work to make a traffic stop because someone is doing something to endanger the rest of our lives.

Think about your willingness to simply be courteous the next time you see an officer.... standing for 4-6 hours directing traffic on a fatality wreck so you can make it home at a reasonable hour, he could just as easily shut down the whole road until its all cleaned up and you get home 5 hours late.... or when you or a family member is involved in one of those types of accident and the officer stays with you or your loved one giving comfort until EMS or the Lord comes to them, when all the officer really has to do is stand there and wait for EMS.... or when you have lost everything you own in a robbery and a proactive officer recovers it because he pulled over a suspicious vehicle, when all they really had to do is simply make a report and turn it into the detectives the next day.... or how about when your child is missing and an observant officers sees them and brings them back to you safe and sound, all they really had to do is read the Amber Alert and go back to being a civil rights violating traffic nazi.... ???

I just cant understand the lack of courtesy and respect coming from a group of citizens. I mean your all permit holders... where have ALL of you had this kind of negative encounter with a LEO that makes you feel like this? And don't say... "well this one time"... because you can get a bad apple in any kind of profession... but you don't go and cut down all the apple trees because there was one rotten apple.

LEO should be respected enough to be given the courteous benefit of a doubt, not a bunch of ridiculing attitude.

Peace out..

Phil

Edited May 11, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[TripleDigitRide]

Man I cant believe some of you guys lack of respect and willingness to make a LEO's job easier. Why cant you just make them feel a little more secure about them stopping you. I mean whats the big freaking deal? Sure you don't have to tell them crap, if you want to get technical about it... but just remember, speeding starts at 1mph over the limit. Just imagine if LEO really enforced the speeding laws? Most of the stops you guys are referring to is with you approaching speeds that would constitute careless or reckless driving. That being said they give all of us breaks all the time. So why break out the bad attitude and the lack of courtesy. Most officers aren't out there just for craps and giggles to be a traffic Nazi. Most of the time they are taken away from real police work to make a traffic stop because someone is doing something to endanger the rest of our lives.

Think about your willingness to simply be courteous the next time you see an officer.... standing for 4-6 hours directing traffic on a fatality wreck so you can make it home at a reasonable hour, he could just as easily shut down the whole road until its all cleaned up and you get home 5 hours late.... or when you or a family member is involved in one of those types of accident and the officer stays with you or your loved one giving comfort until EMS or the Lord comes to them, when all the officer really has to do is stand there and wait for EMS.... or when you have lost everything you own in a robbery and a proactive officer recovers it because he pulled over a suspicious vehicle, when all they really had to do is simply make a report and turn it into the detectives the next day.... or how about when your child is missing and an observant officers sees them and brings them back to you safe and sound, all they really had to do is read the Amber Alert and go back to being a civil rights violating traffic nazi.... ???

I just cant understand the lack of courtesy and respect coming from a group of citizens. I mean your all permit holders... where have ALL of you had this kind of negative encounter with a LEO that makes you feel like this? And don't say... "well this one time"... because you can get a bad apple in any kind of profession... but you don't go and cut down all the apple trees because there was one rotten apple.

LEO should be respected enough to be given the courteous benefit of a doubt, not a bunch of ridiculing attitude.

Peace out..

Phil

True dat, Nizzle!

[dralarms]

Well I hand over my permit when I hand over my DL, and if he asks if anyone is armed then I will tell him but if he don't ask I'm not tellin. 1st, I am not (almost never) a passenger, if I am in the car I'm driving. 2nd I assume that if I hand the LE my DL and permit he should know I'm tellin him I got mine:D, 3rd, if it goes as far as him asking me if anyone else is armed then I will inform him to the best of my ability the case. If he asks someone else in the truck if they are packin then I'll leave it for them to answer.

Me? I want the LE to know I am armed and that I have a permit for it, the last time I was drawn down on was in 1979 at the flight line at Fairchild AFB Spokane, WA. a buddy of mine was a nav aid and was on call and got called out to the filght line, well the fellow forgot to clear with the tower before crossing the flight line. Next thing I knew there was about 30 SP's (Air forces version of cops) with their fully auto m-16's trained at our heads. Thought I was a goner that day for sure.

[The Rabbi]

It's not about respect. It's not about making their job easier (and how that's accomplished by handing over my HCP is beyond me). It's about rights. About the Constitutional right against unlawful searches and seizures. The LEO has absolutely no right to know whether I am carrying a weapon or not. I am no threat to him and until or unless he can articulate why I am then it is none of his damn business what I have or dont have.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

It's not about respect. It's not about making their job easier (and how that's accomplished by handing over my HCP is beyond me). It's about rights. About the Constitutional right against unlawful searches and seizures. The LEO has absolutely no right to know whether I am carrying a weapon or not. I am no threat to him and until or unless he can articulate why I am then it is none of his damn business what I have or dont have.

Well my friend I guess we can agree to disagree.... and I strongly disagree. Its not about rights at all. How are your Constitutional rights being violated by volunteering this information to the officer? I mean really, are you joking? If you (the citizen) ever give permission for a search you can stop that search at any time. They have to stop, its the law! Didn't you know that? In any event, who besides you mentioned "search"? Its really all about having courtesy to those whom risk their lives to protect you. Why wouldn't you want them to know? Why not give them a break? They give the public, and you yourself breaks every day. No more then giving a police officer a discount, or a soldier for that matter... and hey I give both all the time. I'm proud of the job they both do protecting my family and freedoms.

So maybe the next time something happens and you call the police... maybe they just need to do exactly what the law says, their job description and their general orders call for.... and consider all the extra stuff "none of their damned business" too... So maybe your right, maybe the Police should just do their jobs and never offer to give anyone a break or exert that little extra effort that might make a difference in society.

Damned, that would put us both out of business wouldnt it and we'd probably all be getting tickets every day. I know I would.

[The Rabbi]

You have to explain how informing the officer I am armed represents "courtesy" or reflects on his own safety. I doubt you will be able to answer the question.

As for courtesy, why dont you also explain to the officer where you were, where you are going, and whom you have/will meet? Any information not specifically required is an intrusion. Just as much as if I were walking in a mall and I went up to every LEO I met and told them I had an HCP and was armed. Do you think that's reasonable? I dont.

And your comparison of an officer's duties and the motorist's role is laughable.

And no, I dont give LE discounts. LEs are generally represented by powerful unions and get wages and benefits, paid for out of my tax dollars, far in excess of what they would get with comparable experience and job skills in the business world. And most importantly, they signed up for the job.

[jay1313g]

Hmmmmm.... Thanks for chiming in Phillip. I posted earlier about always meeting the LEO at the back of the car with DL and HCP ready and several on this forum didn't respond to this favorably. I have not been pulled over that many times but, I can conceive that my honest approach and respect for the LEO has kept me from getting the ticket or two that I probably deserved. I can see where this could be a safety issue but I've usually made it off the road and into a parking lot away from traffic. Search my car? Sure! I'm an honest law abiding citizen who happens to believe in the right to protect myself and my family by legally carrying a firearm. You won't find drugs, alcohol, kiddie porn, or etc. in my vehicle. (The worst you'll probably find is an old AC/DC cd.) By the way, I have never been asked to have my car searched. So much for the honest, respectful approach.

[The Rabbi]

Hmmmmm.... Thanks for chiming in Phillip. I posted earlier about always meeting the LEO at the back of the car with DL and HCP ready and several on this forum didn't respond to this favorably. I have not been pulled over that many times but, I can conceive that my honest approach and respect for the LEO has kept me from getting the ticket or two that I probably deserved. I can see where this could be a safety issue but I've usually made it off the road and into a parking lot away from traffic. Search my car? Sure! I'm an honest law abiding citizen who happens to believe in the right to protect myself and my family by legally carrying a firearm. You won't find drugs, alcohol, kiddie porn, or etc. in my vehicle. (The worst you'll probably find is an old AC/DC cd.) By the way, I have never been asked to have my car searched. So much for the honest, respectful approach.

Wow. That's all I can say.

"Gee Mr Authority, please come and take my rights away, I'm not really using them."

[Guest Steelharp]

I believe LEO's are trained to be more "reactive." If something is amiss, they will react. What you consider to be a "well concealed firearm" just might peek out from under cover, and there will be a reaction, I assure you. Having been pulled over, held against a car, having my guns unloaded and thrown on my car roof before, I see the common sense side of simply informing the officer that I have a permit and am carrying. In no way have my rights been violated by doing that. Violating caution by being a smug smartass seems like the more stupid decision.

[The Rabbi]

It might shed some light if you explained a little more fully how you came to get shoved up against the cruiser....

[Guest Steelharp]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218166

[Guest grimel]

It might shed some light if you explained a little more fully how you came to get shoved up against the cruiser....

Anything from meeting Mr LEO from some nutjob location (Cali, MD, NYC, DC, etc) who has moved here or a nutter local who is anti concealed carry who determines you telling him you have a concealed weapon is an implied threat, ergo you must be disarmed for "everyone's safety" to working an unusual job in a bad part of town that results in you slow rolling through the area while being a different race than that area. Even though you are in a company vehicle with a flashing yellow light, wearing work clothes & a safety vest. Oh, and being from out of state doesn't help. You'd be amazed the number of officers who don't know what states honor a TN HCL.

If you meet a nutter anything is possible.

[Guest Boomhower]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218166

Just got home from being pulled over...

Man, what a night. I just got pulled over, and it was interesting. My tags were expired, that's what started it. I pulled into McDonald's, because that's where he lit me up. Parked, he came up behind me, and I opened my door. He said, "Stay in your car, sir." I said absolutely. He asked to see my license, I opened my wallet, showing it and my permit. Before I could say, "I do have a permit, and I am carrying," he asks, "Do you have a gun in the car, sir?" I say, "Yes, I have two of them, right there." "Step out of the car, sir, for my protection." "Of course." He says to his buddy, "He has two guns in the car!" His buddy holds me against the patrol car, and the officer at my car starts unloading my guns and throwing them on my roof. "Why do you have two guns?" he hollers. "Because if I'm in a position where I can't wear a holstered gun, I have one I can slip in my pocket." Fair enough. He says to the guy holding me, "He has a permit," and the guy relaxes a bit. Then we start talking, I tell him I used to work at a gunshop, and then things are all friendly and ok.

I've been stopped before, but never have I had my guns unloaded and tossed on my car roof before. Was that a little over the top, or have I just been lucky?

Wow. That was a little uncalled for IMHO. It does not matter why you had 2 guns with you, and I did not see a reason that you needed to be held against your car. If the officier would like to detain your weapons, then that's completely up to him, but this was a little over board if you ask me.

[Punisher84]

I am convinced there is a video on youtube somewhere of the Rabbi being beaten down by a bunch of huge blonde hair blue-eyed cops chanting anti-semitic remarks, because there is no other reason a person can have that much disdain for a profession. I have found a middle ground and at least been able to see a POINT behind everyone else's answers in this thread and the other on this related issue, except yours. You moan and groan about your rights and how the boys in blue are gonna strip them away in the night, but I wanna know what the hell you contribute on a daily basis that makes you better than those that do the job every single day!

Why don't you take off the tin-foil and pop the V for Vendetta dvd out of the player for a minute?

That being said a person with a HCP in a passenger status should do what they feel as I said in the other thread. Volunteer the information or don't. Any cop who takes your gun and unloads it after he knows you have a permit should be reported. I'm not one sided here, but geez some of this has got to stop. Insanity.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

You have to explain how informing the officer I am armed represents "courtesy" or reflects on his own safety. I doubt you will be able to answer the question.

As for courtesy, why dont you also explain to the officer where you were, where you are going, and whom you have/will meet? Any information not specifically required is an intrusion. Just as much as if I were walking in a mall and I went up to every LEO I met and told them I had an HCP and was armed. Do you think that's reasonable? I dont.

And your comparison of an officer's duties and the motorist's role is laughable.

And no, I dont give LE discounts. LEs are generally represented by powerful unions and get wages and benefits, paid for out of my tax dollars, far in excess of what they would get with comparable experience and job skills in the business world. And most importantly, they signed up for the job.

Explain??? What makes you think I havent already answered it? I think I already made it very obvious previously, to everyone else, at least about courtesy. Then I will just put it like this. Along long time ago I was a rookie cop out in the county alone in the middle of no where at 2 am in the morning pulling over a guy doing 70 in a 40.... Dispatch running the tag and it comes back clean... I approached the passengers side of the vehicle, and actually surprised the driver. He was expecting me from his drivers side. He immediately pulled his hands from his lap and put them on the wheel.... then I see a handgun in between the seats, and me being a "gun" guy I 2nd guessed if the guy has a permit or not... asked ... then come to find out he didn't .... From the back part of his car, out of training and instinct my gut told me to draw my weapon and keep it to my side...when the guy saw me do this out of his mirror he immediately raised his hands.... I got him out and took the gun... found another one in his floorboard.... and the guy winds up being a convicted felon... with multiple arrest for assault on police officers. I mean, he apparently had the other gun in his hands while I was approaching the car, out of luck or Divine intervention I approached from the side he wasn't watching... who knows what his intention were... But they wernt good. Nothing else came of that incident, except he got arrested for driving on a revoked license for HTO... and possession of a handgun by a convicted felon... but the incident put me on guard after that... its one of those life changing goose bump moments... ya know, the ones where you think... "damned I'm lucky I'm going home tonight".... and you go home and have a beer. Basically I screwed up, but I lived to tell about it. In later years things happened where the same insticts to be a little more careful paid off and saved another officers life... so was it worth it, yep.

You see, police are trained to act on the SIGHT of anything that can be a weapon... I'm a gun guy with about as much firearms training that one can get... so I was one of the few that were kinda relaxed around guns. But others, some would freak out if they saw one... period. You have to understand, thats their training... it means they are within a split second of not making it out of that traffic stop alive. I literally mean seconds.... They simply have to think that way.

Anyway, if a LEO see's a weapon... they may react to it. But if you let them know out of courtesy their reaction should be calm cool and collective. Once you let them know, they shouldn't care unless you show them the same anger and hostility that your showing them in this thread. I can just imagine how hostile a routine traffic stop could turn out to be with you.

Anyway, if you offer the information they will generally greatly appreciate you letting them know, and honestly they will have more respect for you that you did.

Now about a Powerful Union? Damned which one? I never knew any legitimate powerful Union was backing me or any other police officer around here up?

Anyway back to the point... See I have been on about every side of this issue... Gun owner, Shop Owner, HCP instructor, permit holder, police officer, sheriffs deputy, police trainer... so maybe I see more to it then your capable of understanding.

Btw, I never dreamed you had this much apparent utter hatred for police and law enforcement. Whomever wronged you previously did society a great disservice, because I always thought you were a pretty cool guy.

I think I have contributed about all I care to in this thread.

Peace out.

Phil

Edited May 12, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218166

oooops, one more tidbit...

hahaha... yea old buddy, I rememebr that. You were scared silly after that. But the thing is, you and I both know about that agency, they are simply the worst when when it comes to encounters with HCP holders.

Edited May 12, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[The Rabbi]

I am convinced there is a video on youtube somewhere of the Rabbi being beaten down by a bunch of huge blonde hair blue-eyed cops chanting anti-semitic remarks, because there is no other reason a person can have that much disdain for a profession. I have found a middle ground and at least been able to see a POINT behind everyone else's answers in this thread and the other on this related issue, except yours. You moan and groan about your rights and how the boys in blue are gonna strip them away in the night, but I wanna know what the hell you contribute on a daily basis that makes you better than those that do the job every single day!

Why don't you take off the tin-foil and pop the V for Vendetta dvd out of the player for a minute?

That being said a person with a HCP in a passenger status should do what they feel as I said in the other thread. Volunteer the information or don't. Any cop who takes your gun and unloads it after he knows you have a permit should be reported. I'm not one sided here, but geez some of this has got to stop. Insanity.

You would be surprised to learn that not only have I not had any incidents like you describe, I actually have had very good experiences with all the LEs (OK almost all) I've met both as suspect and as gun seller.

But I didnt realize I was required to "contribute" in order to voice an opinion here. Perhaps you could detail what my contributions as a private citizen ought to be?

There is no tin foil hat here. But it is undeniable that a) an officer making a traffic stop is tuned to find other violations as well; some officers abuse their authority; c) if we don't fight for civil rights we will lose them. There has been a steady erosion of personal liberty over the last 30 years and some people on this board seem intent on accelerating that trend. Protections against search and seizure were hard fought for and hard won and some folks posting want to toss them. Imagine you never carried a gun or cared anything about them. Now imagine being told you would have to give up gun rights. No biggie, right? Same here. And all rights are interconnected. You cannot give up one and expect to retain all the others.

[Guest Steelharp]

Bill, Philip, being an outsider and a friend of both of you, I feel I can see the correctness of each of your positions from your perspectives. Neither one of you is "wrong." I, having been in the position I was in once, would personally have to lean toward telling the officer I have a permit. In what happened to me, he saw the permit, that's what prompted the question if I had any guns. I just happened to have my mouth in slower gear, and he saw the permit before the words, "I have a permit" rolled out. So, he reacted. Over reacted, I think... but that's not the issue.

[Fallguy]

Bill, Philip, being an outsider and a friend of both of you, I feel I can see the correctness of each of your positions from your perspectives. Neither one of you is "wrong."

Exactly.

If when someone is pulled over and they roll down their windows, open all the doors, pop the trunk, hand over all paper including their itinerary for the previous and next 3 days....fine, if that's what they want to do.

But why, if someone is a private person, may not want to engage in idle conversation with an officer for what ever reason, does not want to volunteer information about themselves not relevant to reason for the traffic stop, but cooperates in they ways required of them, branded a trouble maker and a$$hole?

[molonlabetn]

The passengers have no more reason or legal obligation than the driver to volunteer that they are armed.

[Guest canynracer]

Exactly.

If when someone is pulled over and they roll down their windows, open all the doors, pop the trunk, hand over all paper including their itinerary for the previous and next 3 days....fine, if that's what they want to do.

But why, if someone is a private person, may not want to engage in idle conversation with an officer for what ever reason, does not want to volunteer information about themselves not relevant to reason for the traffic stop, but cooperates in they ways required of them, branded a trouble maker and a$?

I certainly dont think that anyone is an a$$hole for NOT doing it, but the comments made from those people that choose not to do it, towards those that choose to, turns these things into debates.

[Fallguy]

but the comments made from those people that choose not to do it, towards those that choose to, turns these things into debates.

True, but that door swings both ways.

Of course the board has seen it's share of strong, spirited debate lately and overall I'd say it's a good thing as long as personal attacks stay out of it.

What seems to happen in some cases is someone makes a post asking for an opinion, people post their opinions, people with a different opinion may ask another why they have the opinion they have* (so far so good) and most of the time the other simply states why they feel they way they feel. (*Sometimes they don't ask why...sometimes they can attack the others opinion first.)

But sometimes the other person may see this as somewhat of an attack on them and responds back with an attack of their own. Other posters join the group with the opinion similar to those. Then we get 15+ pages on a thread that sort or starts going in circles. With just enough new ideas thrown in to keep it going. Got to love TGO members...

[Guest mw.]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=133_1210305250

You could do this when you get stopped.

I don't think I would recommend it though.

[The Rabbi]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=133_1210305250

You could do this when you get stopped.

I don't think I would recommend it though.

That was a little extreme and in-your-face. But he made the basic point: you are not necessarily under any obligation to answer questions like that. And in the end he was not detained and waved through without having to answer.

As for the other points made, no one is calling anyone an *******. But I personally am disappointed that people who claim to value freedom as much as they do seem so willing to give it up for nothing.