Dogs: family or property?

[andersmg]

I had a situation this morning while walking my Yorkie.

Some folks in my neighborhood like to let their dogs out in the morning and late at night, this morning I encountered two large dogs, they both gave us a good look and we them but thankfully they did not advance on us.

OK, we go down the street and meet another neighbor who said he saw a man with a pit bull walking with him that was NOT on a leash. I go into full alert mode at that point expecting a pit bull to come charging me and my little yorkie at any time.

This got me to thinking, if I had indeed been charged by this lose pit bull could I legally draw my handgun and shoot the dog if it was coming at us with teeth showing, growling etc.??

[TGO David]

I don't think a judge would have much to say to you other than "Nice shot" if you took down an aggressive dog in a situation as described. I would expect a civil suit from the dog's owner, however.

[andersmg]

What about if the dog is attacking my dog? Would I be legal in shooting then?

[TGO David]

What about if the dog is attacking my dog? Would I be legal in shooting then?

Is your dog on a leash? Is the leash in your hand? So you're in close proximity to your dog and you also felt threatened for your own safety and could convince the police officer and judge of that if necessary?

Yes?

*BOOM*

[andersmg]

Is your dog on a leash? Is the leash in your hand? So you're in close proximity to your dog and you also felt threatened for your own safety and could convince the police officer and judge of that if necessary?

Yes?

*BOOM*

Yes to all those questions, so I get the picture, Thanks!

[ZenDog]

In case you haven't seen this attack dog video-- watch how fast it can happen. I don't think I have the speed & awareness to stop one of these critters before I am bitten.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwwiXcTphzk]attack dog video[/ame]

[saintsfanbrian]

Considering the dog is attacking and you are in the vicinity I think you would be justified in shooting the dog. After all, once he finished its snack where do you think it would have turned. The Yorkie isn't a meal for a Pit

[Fallguy]

What about if the dog is attacking my dog? Would I be legal in shooting then?

Yes! T.C.A. 39-14-205(

( A person is justified in killing the animal of another if the person acted under a reasonable belief that the animal was creating an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to that person or another or an imminent danger of death to an animal owned by that person. A person is not justified in killing the animal of another if at the time of the killing the person is trespassing upon the property of the owner of the animal. The justification for killing the animal of another authorized by this subsection ( shall not apply to a person who, while engaging in or attempting to escape from criminal conduct, kills a police dog that is acting in its official capacity. In that case the provisions of subsection (a) shall apply to the person.

[molonlabetn]

If one of my dogs got loose and attacked a neighbor's dog, I would expect no less than to own a dead dog, and would prefer that it be killed than anyone or anything else be harmed. The negligence for allowing it to happen would be on me, the owner.

So, if I was attacked by a dog (heaven help the dog if I was walking my own, unless it's one helluva badass dog), I wouldn't hesitate to use whatever force necessary to stop it. And, I wouldn't hesitate to pursue legal remedies towards the negligence of the owner.

[Fallguy]

To me, whether the dog is on a leash or not is irrelevant. My decision to shoot would be based on whether I felt I (or my dog if I had one) was in danger of death or serious bodily injury.

I agree you can't shoot a dog simply because he is off the leash, but also even if the dog is on leash and he has grabbed on to me and the owner can't remove him before I draw my weapon...well.....

[Guest Halfpint]

Hellbilly:

If a dog of size capable of causing me bodily harm--regardless of breed--is coming at me at a high rate of speed, let's even call it running, and behaving in an aggressive manner, ie growling, snarling, bearing teeth/raising hackles, barking, and it is not on a leash . . .

you had damn well better believe I'm going to shoot the dog.

The difference between that and your idea of shooting someone's wife as they walked to the mailbox is fairly obvious--the dog was going to cause me harm, the woman was walking to the mailbox. One is self-defense from bodily harm or injury, the other is murder.

I've been attacked by dogs--both stray and neighborhood dogs not on a leash--four times in my life. I've suffered two broken bones and several stitches because of said dogs. Net result? Two dead dogs, two who know very well not to attack me again. As for the neighbors, one was extremely pissed that I shot his dog--then he saw the blood flowing down my arm. The other neighbor understood why his dog had a broken rib--it had attacked me and was capable of causing bodily harm, and I kicked it--HARD.

Self defense is self defense, whether it's from a person or an animal.

[Marswolf]

Just a reminder that if you let your dog get a claw nail off of your property without it being on a leash, you are in violation of Tennessee Code.

If you don't want your dog harmed, you need to care enough for it to make sure it stays under your control. If you won't do that, you don't really care for your dog.

[molonlabetn]

Unless it happened to be my dog, in which case you should expect quick and precise return fire. Since when is a rumor that a dog that is not on a leash reason to consider gunplay?

I think more of my dog than some people think of thier kids. He happens to be half American Bulldog, and half American Pit Bull Terrier, which are actual breed names, unlike "pit bull" which is a label that is used out of ignorance, or to perpetuate the idea of an imaginary boogeyman usually for the benifit he who is doing the labeling, much like the label "islamofacist".

I'll say that I don't know what kind of dog your neighbor saw, and neither does he, and neither do you. Most people couldn't pick a APBT out of a line up. Can you?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Suppose for arguments sake, it was an APBT. Is that, in your mind, justification for shooting it? Because you have an unreasonable and unjustifiable fear of "pit bulls" because of what you have heard, or imagine about them? Perhaps you have similar fears about black people, or people who don't wear designer clothes. I have similar fears about fat, middle-aged white men. Should I shoot them at the slightest sign of imagined aggression or questionable behavior, especially if they aren't wearing their seatbelts?

So this got me to thinking. If my neighbor shot my dog, and three to six months, maybe a year later, someone shot his wife with a high powered rifle from a couple hundred yards away as she went to the mailbox, you think the police would suspect me? You think he'd think it was worth it? You think that guy in your neighborhood likes his dog as much as I like mine? Perhaps you need to think about some of these things.

Would you prefer that your dog maul your neighbors wife, and be put down afterwards (while you are being sued)?

Suggesting that retaliatory action against one's neighbor for preventing that chain of events, through use of force against one's dog, isn't a good attitude to have. Though I agree that some folks have that attitude.

Honestly, if my neighbor's dog attacked me, resulting in having to kill the pet, and the neighbor acted upon threats to me or my family with retaliation... They would receive the same treatment as their dog.

[saintsfanbrian]

Would you prefer that your dog maul your neighbors wife, and be put down afterwards (while you are being sued)?

Forget being sued, you would probably be charged with negligent manslaughter for not keeping your dog contained.

[TGO David]

Unless it happened to be my dog, in which case you should expect quick and precise return fire.

So you're saying you would shoot someone because they shot your dog. Your dog which was acting aggressively toward them and was not under your control. Did I get that right?

Wow.

[overthemountain]

Long read here:

This is an interesting topic.

I had two German Shepherds for a long time that had very different personalities. They were both trained to stay in our yard. I will never say never, because they are animals that run on instinct, but I "never" had an issue with them going out of the yard. One was very passive and didn't really react to anything with anything other than cocking a head and staring, but the other one was a barker. Joggers would go by and he would run to the edge of the yard and bark 5 or 6 times then turn around and come back to me. I know it was very disconcerting, but he never did anything more than that. Admittedly, they were very rarely in the front yard without a leash just because I didn't like the idea of the neighbors being worried. One of our neighbors loved the dogs and would come into the yard to pet them and rough house, but there was another neighbor who was very scared of them...not a dog person at all...and I just preferred to not even try to explain to him that all he would have to do is call their name and stop for a second for them to know who he was. I knew he wouldn't believe me. Those dogs are gone now (died of old age), but I do have new ones that are very similar.

As for dog on dog action... A few months ago, I was walking one of my young German Shepherds up the street (on a leash) when a little Maltese came running out from behind a bush, barking and growling and running right for my dog. I wasn't scared for my life...it was a Maltese for goodness sake...but it really startled my dog. Before I knew it, my dog had the Maltese pinned down under her front paws and had the little dog's neck in her mouth. At that point everything froze and my dog just kept growling while the other dog lay there perfectly still. The neighbor came running our apologizing about leaving the Maltese outside. When I told my dog to "drop her", she did and little yipper ran off.

I know people will say they know how their pets are going to react to things, but you never can tell. Having said that, "knowing" how our dogs are and how dogs are in general, I would hate to make a blanket statement on how I would react. I will say this, I will choose my life over a dogs, but I bet I'll end up hurt, because I'm sure I'll hesitate.

[molonlabetn]

So you're saying you would shoot someone because they shot your dog. Your dog which was acting aggressively toward them and was not under your control. Did I get that right?

Wow.

Someone mentioned elsewhere that the fastest way to render an attacking dog ineffective is to disable its handler first.... this will be something to keep in mind if I come across an aggressive dog with an aggressive owner.

[BenS]

So this got me to thinking. If my neighbor shot my dog, and three to six months, maybe a year later, someone shot his wife with a high powered rifle from a couple hundred yards away as she went to the mailbox, you think the police would suspect me? You think he'd think it was worth it? You think that guy in your neighborhood likes his dog as much as I like mine? Perhaps you need to think about some of these things.

Damn dude, your priorities are all out of whack. If you own a dog that even resembles a pit bull, it is a liability to YOU and only YOU. It does NOT give you any rights what-so-ever to take the life of anyone else if harm came to your dog.

It sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder for pits. I hope you won't have to learn the hard way if / when your dog attacks another dog or God forbid, a child.

[Guest Halfpint]

So, Hellbilly, answer me this-- was I in the right to kill the dog that had already broken my arm and wound up giving me wounds that needed 13 stitches to close?

I want to point out two things: I never mentioned imminent bodily injury to my dog--I said severe bodily injury to ME. Second, you totally ignored my first paragraph, wherein I described the behavior of a dog I would perceive to be a threat.

If your dog is attacking me, you have until it gets fifteen feet from me to call it off. If you are unable to call it off, and it begins to attack me--read: bite, maul, claw, break bones, or any other action that would cause me serious injury--I am going to shoot it, whether you are there or not.

[TGO David]

This honestly is not directed toward anyone, but this thread and some comments made got me thinking...

If a dog attacked me and I shot it, and the dog's owner decided to shoot me in retaliation... he better be really damn fast with his gun because mine will already be out and warmed up by that point.

[TGO David]

My dog that they percieved was an imminent threat. Why do you leave that out? Of course if my dog is a threat to someone I am gonna be doing my best to recall him. I don't have to worry about that, because my dog is not a threat to anyone who isn't acting like a threat to me. And if they are acting like a threat to me, the the dog isn't the one they should be concerned about presenting an imminent threat.

You conduct yourself differently?

Wow.

Seriously, you're being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. That or you're just dumb. My perception of a threat comes from the circumstances not from pre-existing knowledge of your dog's behavior patterns. Pre-existing knowledge that I do not have.

When you related the anecdotal experience of being bitten by a GSD, you downplayed what happened because (a.) you knew the dog and (b.) you knew what the dog was trained to do. This is an apples-to-oranges comparison and has no bearing on what we're talking about here.

If that same GSD cut a line across your yard and latched onto me, I'd kill the animal with the full blessing of the Court behind me. And if you drew on me as a result, I'd kill you too. Again with the full blessing of the Court.

My perception of both instances would have been that I was immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm and that my actions were justified and prudent in respect to that belief. I doubt many on a jury would disagree with that; so why do you?

I'll answer why you do. You do because you have an emotional attachment to your animals. This is fine! I have an emotional attachment to my animals as well. But I also realize that animals don't always do what they are supposed to do and that if one of mine runs out into the road and gets hit by a car, it's not the motorist's fault -- even if he was speeding. The fact remains that the animal should have been under my control and wasn't. Therefore the only person that I can justifiably be mad at is ME. And I'm not going to draw on myself and shoot myself as a result of that, just as I wouldn't draw on the motorist and shoot him.

You need to temper your emotions with rational thinking otherwise you may end up in jail, or worse yet, dead as a result of them.

I'd hate to see that happen to you.

[Fallguy]

BTW the law says "imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to that person or another or an imminent danger of death to an animal owned by that person."

Note that "imminent danger of serious bodily injury" to an animal owned by that person is apparently still legally lacking as justification for one shooting a dog.

Umm...no it's not. It is saying you can use deadly force against an animal if it causing imminent danger of serious bodily injury to your pet/animal or you or another person.

Are you then of the opinion that a dog that is running not on a leash is an "imminent danger of death or bodily injury to a human, or imminent danger of death to an animal?"

Not just the fact it is running off the leash.

I got dog bit two months ago by a German Shepherd that my Dad's cousin sent him last Dec. from a batch of US Army dogs he raises at Ft. Benning. He and my bulldog were fighting, and I stepped in and tried to break it up. He latched onto my arm just like he is supposed to do. I required no stitches, but I had eight really obvious teeth punctures, and a lot of lesser abrasions. Still, the world spins, and at nearly the same speed. I don't wet my pants and run everytime I see a dog, even a German Shepherd, a dog that we all know is willing to bite a human being. Maybe I'm not as big a chicken as some folks are.

That was your choice. Just as one could choose not to shoot an intruder into his house if he didn't want to. However what you choose and what someone else may, within the law, choose to do can be different. Also I don't think it is chicken to kill a dog that is bitting you. I do agree that not every dog running loose is a threat either though.

I can't imagine living in a place that tells you what kind of dog you can and can't have, or that you have to keep it penned up or on a leash or chain. I'd pack my stuff and take my tax dollars elsewhere.

I agree that breed specific laws are BS, but leash laws aren't that bad of an idea, when the dog is off your property.

[saintsfanbrian]

Again, animals are unpredictable and if your dog runs up to me or my dog in a threatening manner, it will be dispatched. If it harms my dog prior to being dispatched you will be paying vet bills on top of that and if it harms me also, you will be paying medical bills.

Dogs are just that. If either of my two GSD's were to harm my child on purpose they would not live out the day. I love my dogs, but my kids are WAY more important. If your dog harms them, he won't live out the hour.

[TGO David]

Who are you? Do you pay my farm & ranch insurance? If not, then keep your advice about what stock I keep to yourself, thank you very much.

Simmer down. When you initiated your participation in this thread, you invited others to comment on what you contributed. If you dislike that or cannot handle what they have to say, click here.

[bteague2]

Your farm and ranch insurance? Somebody was on your land and shot your dog, compared to being out walking around and a dog charging you are very different situations.