Judge Shuts Down Mega-Mosque Construction - Murfreesboro, TN

[mcurrier]

So the media doesn't care about Christian oppression and nobody cares about Africa. I agree on both accounts; what's it got to do with opening up a religious institution in Mboro?

Point being that islam is the new p.c. "religion" and that christianity is currently cool to bash, and murdering of christians seems to be ok too. Our muslim president speaks out any time islam gets dissed, but hundreds of christians have been murdered recently (by muslims in the name of islam no less), and Obama can't bring himself to utter a syllable.

And the whole point, TMF, the entire point that I've been making in this thread, is that many of us don't believe that it's just a "religious institution in Mboro" as you put it. We have presented argument that islam is not a "religion", but a radical form of government ideology, all-encompassing in every aspect of life (both those who are members of islam and eventually those who aren't), not merely in a "worship" sense. As it grows, it will at first indirectly affect you and I, and as it gains large percentages and then majorities, it will directly affect you and I, whether we belong to it or not. The so-called "peaceful" muslims are the ones on the bottom rung of the islamic ladder, they are eventually pushed up the ladder by the tenets of what they may naively believe to be a religion, but will eventually be forced to comply with the most fanatic dictates of what islam demands. It is happening more and more every day all around the world and as time progresses it is becoming more and more volatile. Those who can't see this are doomed to fall under the boots of islam.

[Guest bkelm18]

Point being that islam is the new p.c. "religion" and that christianity is currently cool to bash, and murdering of christians seems to be ok too. Our muslim president speaks out any time islam gets dissed, but hundreds of christians have been murdered recently (by muslims in the name of islam no less), and Obama can't bring himself to utter a syllable.

And the whole point, TMF, the entire point that I've been making in this thread, is that many of us don't believe that it's just a "religious institution in Mboro" as you put it. We have presented argument that islam is not a "religion", but a radical form of government ideology, all-encompassing in every aspect of life (both those who are members of islam and eventually those who aren't), not merely in a "worship" sense. As it grows, it will at first indirectly affect you and I, and as it gains large percentages and then majorities, it will directly affect you and I, whether we belong to it or not. The so-called "peaceful" muslims are the ones on the bottom rung of the islamic ladder, they are eventually pushed up the ladder by the tenets of what they may naively believe to be a religion, but will eventually be forced to comply with the most fanatic dictates of what islam demands. It is happening more and more every day all around the world and as time progresses it is becoming more and more volatile. Those who can't see this are doomed to fall under the boots of islam.

So peaceful Muslims will be forced into radicalism? Is that what you're saying? Islam is no less a religion than Christianity. Nobody ever said it was cool to bash Christians however it needs to be pointed out that Christianity does not have a squeaky clean history. They went through violent transgressions just like Islam is now. It really would be interesting, if it were possible, to see the figures on how many people have been killed in the name of Christianity and how many people of been killed in the name of Islam. I think those figures would be very interesting indeed. Just my thoughts. You guys can carry on with your Xenophobia thread.

[greyofk]

There is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam. Jesus preached peace and love while Mohammed ordered extermination of male population of most tribes surrounding Medina at his time.

The mission of Crusaders was to protect and defend prayers. The mission of Jigits (warriors of Allah) was to fight unbelievers.

Generalisation:

Christianity assumes moral behaviour toward every human being

Islam does not require any morality toward unbelievers (keep in mind however that Mohammed considered the followers of prophet Moses and followers of prophet Jesus as believers)

The number of people killed in the name of Christ is irrelevant, because the murderers misinterpreted the Christian scripture

Christian scripture comply with our constitution

Muslim scripture (Hadith in particular) contains some statements that contradict US constitution

[DaveS]

...ONE Nation, under GOD, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all.......

Dave

[JayC]

...ONE Nation, under GOD, with LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all.......

Dave

More progressive horse poo getting spread around...

First, we didn't have a pledge for over 100 years... because it violated many of the principals of our founding fathers.

Second, the pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian SOCIALIST (aka progressive), who believed in "the rights of workers" and "equal distribution of economic resources"... Does that sound familiar at all?

Couple little facts about the pledge, in the beginning you didn't put your hand over you heart, you did a Nazi salute. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Bellamy_salute_1.jpg A picture of American school children performing the pledge in May of 1942.

Oh yeah and Bellamy, a complete racists that didn't believe that all men were created equally The Pledge was 1 part business idea to allow the paper he worked for to sell more American flags to schools... and 1 part progressive agenda.

Third, It was only during WWII that Congress in a propaganda move, added the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag Act...

Fourth, 12 years later, adding 'under God' as a propaganda move to help fight communism.

Go back and re-read Jefferson's, and Adam's... read the transcripts from the Amistad where John Q. Adams (former President) represented some Muslims... Our founding fathers were well aware of the issues with radical Islam, having fought our first war against it, yet still believe in true freedom of religion.

[mcurrier]

So peaceful Muslims will be forced into radicalism? Is that what you're saying?

Eventually. Like will be required of everyone at some point, comply or die. That is what I said.

Islam is no less a religion than Christianity.

Go ahead and keep thinking that.

Nobody ever said it was cool to bash Christians however it needs to be pointed out that Christianity does not have a squeaky clean history.

Those who defend islam love to keep mentioning that. Interestingly, Jesus preaches love and peace, mohammed preaches kill your enemy. I have not seen any news stories of christians strapping bombs onto themselves and walking into pizza restaurants, onto buses or in other public places and blowing up their enemies. That act is exclusively reserved for muslims. They raise their children to kill themselves. Christians love life. Muslims love death. Saddam Hussein even paid bonus money to families of suicide bombers who would go to Israel and blow themselves up. Islam is a society of death. Stick your head in the sand if you like, that's your business.

They went through violent transgressions just like Islam is now. It really would be interesting, if it were possible, to see the figures on how many people have been killed in the name of Christianity and how many people of been killed in the name of Islam. I think those figures would be very interesting indeed. Just my thoughts.

If you're referring to the middle ages, the spanish inquisition, the conquests, try to come up with something more recent please. Today, it is muslims who are killing people. Are all muslims terrorists, no (not yet), but all terrorists in the past several decades have been muslims.

You guys can carry on with your Xenophobia thread.

Then we bid you good bye.

[BryanP]

If you're referring to the middle ages, the spanish inquisition, the conquests, try to come up with something more recent please. Today, it is muslims who are killing people. Are all muslims terrorists, no (not yet), but all terrorists in the past several decades have been muslims.

You don't say?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_bombing

http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Troubles

http://en.wikipedia....ront_of_Tripura

http://en.wikipedia....lence_in_Orissa

http://en.wikipedia...._Norway_attacks

http://en.wikipedia...._Robert_Rudolph

http://en.wikipedia....l_Jennings_Hill

http://en.wikipedia....es_Charles_Kopp

http://en.wikipedia...._murder_suspect

http://en.wikipedia....i/Aum_Shinrikyo

Edited June 18, 2012 by BryanP

[mcurrier]

Yeah, how did I just KNOW the OK bombing was going to be your first comeback?!?!?! I would have put money on it. LOTS OF MONEY!

And how do you equate that as a "christian" terrorist act? Was it christian against muslim? Was McVeigh a "christian", acting against non-christians, to further his christian cause, following voices in his head, voices of God or of angels, or did he read something in the bible that told him to do that? I believe that we both know the answer to ALL of those questions is NO. McVeigh never claimed that he was acting as a christian, following some christian cause or anything like that. That's like saying that he was acting on behalf of all white males, or all people with bad hair.

You also do know that many people, like the guy from Norway, not to mention Barack Obama, call themselves christians to further their agenda, don't you??? Not everyone who calls themselves a christian is one. But no one calls themselves a muslim if they are not. Some muslims, again, like Obama, deny that they are for the expediency of their agenda, but their words and their actions prove otherwise.

Interestingly, you never hear about any christian bombers who go running into a restaurant with a bomb strapped to their body yelling "Jesus Christ!", but you do hear of muslim bombers who go running into a restaurant with a bomb strapped to their body yelling "allahu akbar". You hear of that quite often. Why is that? Are the media covering up all of the christian suicide bombers? I don't think so.

[TMF]

Most Muslims would argue that Islamic extremists are not real Muslims the same as you arguing Mcveigh wasn't a real Christian. I've heard hundreds of Muslims tell me that the extremists are not real Muslims.

I don't think that every time Islam is bashed that Christianity has to be bashed in turn, but it is going to be compared to make a point that extremism is not something that exists only in Islam.

I concede that there is a huge problem within the Muslim world in regards to fostering extremism, but that has to do with socioeconomic factors going on in that region of the world more than the religion itself. High unemployment, low education, low standard of living generally results in a violent subculture within males of a certain age group. We have he same problem in this country. So does Mexico and Colombia.

The difference is that extremists are exploiting that. Blame the big/little Satan for the woes of the poor Muslims. Sprinkle a little indoctrination on top then direct them to a recruiter. Now you got yourself a holy warrior. By no means does that excuse our enemies; we should seek to eliminate their means through any resources we have to include removing them from the Earth. But that doesn't lump any and all Muslims into that category.

What do you think they think about you? Early on in the war many of the enemy I met really thought I/we were crusaders looking to forcibly convert their communities to Christianity. Some thought we were resettling Jews in Baghdad. They really believed this. This is what they were told and what motivated them to fight us; hate for something that didn't really exist. I don't really blame them for thinking that.... I mean, we had guns, tanks and Apaches. What would you think the intentions would be of a Muslim army showing up on our shores with guns, tanks and attack helicopters? The (very) few Muslims that move here and become US citizens aren't even armed and you have this fear of them overtaking our culture. Now, who is the one with the more irrational fear; the insurgents I mentioned above or you?

Edited June 18, 2012 by TMF 18B

[BryanP]

But no one calls themselves a muslim if they are not.

That's quite a mind reading device you've got there.

[DaveS]

More progressive horse poo getting spread around...

First, we didn't have a pledge for over 100 years... because it violated many of the principals of our founding fathers.

Second, the pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian SOCIALIST (aka progressive), who believed in "the rights of workers" and "equal distribution of economic resources"... Does that sound familiar at all?

Couple little facts about the pledge, in the beginning you didn't put your hand over you heart, you did a Nazi salute. http://upload.wikime...my_salute_1.jpg A picture of American school children performing the pledge in May of 1942.

Oh yeah and Bellamy, a complete racists that didn't believe that all men were created equally The Pledge was 1 part business idea to allow the paper he worked for to sell more American flags to schools... and 1 part progressive agenda.

Third, It was only during WWII that Congress in a propaganda move, added the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag Act...

Fourth, 12 years later, adding 'under God' as a propaganda move to help fight communism.

Go back and re-read Jefferson's, and Adam's... read the transcripts from the Amistad where John Q. Adams (former President) represented some Muslims... Our founding fathers were well aware of the issues with radical Islam, having fought our first war against it, yet still believe in true freedom of religion.

You sound so "Un-American".....WOW.....

Love it, or PACK YOUR BAGS FOR ELSEWHERES!!!

Dave Sayre

(931)802-2138

[mcurrier]

Name one reason for claiming to be muslim if you are not. To covertly try and make islam look bad? They don't need any help there. And if someone were to falsley claim membership and were found out, I'm guessing it would be 'chop, chop', which only supports my position on islam.

Drink the kool-aid if you must.

[TMF]

So when a self proclaimed Catholic bombs an abortion clinic they aren't Catholic, but when a Muslim blows up girls school he is absolutely a Muslim? I'm not following the logic.

[Hershmeister]

The problem in this discussion is folks confusing the VEry American concept of assimilation, freedom of religion for all and the notion that religion can come in a variety of flavors (think of all the different Christian sects that are out there)

There is only one Islam. there are Sunnis and Shias and a few other variants, but there is ultimately only one Islam. Only in American can one even think about being "partly" Islamic. This progressive idea is alien to the rest of the world and represents the true clash of modernity and Islam -a battle we'll be seeing waged for years to come unfortunately.

So when an imam is trained at Al Azhsr , this is like the Harvard of Islamic schools. You cant pretend he must be a moderate. The concept of radical islam being the oddball belief is completely an American concept. It's a false idea. Do your research and don't take your values and assume others share them.

I say all this while ALSO firmly believing that the building permits must be handled in a fair fashion. We can't abandon our principles. At the same time, we can't be blind to real danger.

[Hershmeister]

PS: here is an excellent article :

http://pjmedia.com/blog/educating-conservatives-about-sharia’s-threat/?singlepage=true

[mcurrier]

The problem in this discussion is folks confusing the VEry American concept of assimilation, freedom of religion for all and the notion that religion can come in a variety of flavors (think of all the different Christian sects that are out there)

There is only one Islam. there are Sunnis and Shias and a few other variants, but there is ultimately only one Islam. Only in American can one even think about being "partly" Islamic. This progressive idea is alien to the rest of the world and represents the true clash of modernity and Islam -a battle we'll be seeing waged for years to come unfortunately.

So when an imam is trained at Al Azhsr , this is like the Harvard of Islamic schools. You cant pretend he must be a moderate. The concept of radical islam being the oddball belief is completely an American concept. It's a false idea. Do your research and don't take your values and assume others share them.

I say all this while ALSO firmly believing that the building permits must be handled in a fair fashion. We can't abandon our principles. At the same time, we can't be blind to real danger.

Well put Hershmeister!

I do not hate muslims. I do not fear muslims. But I also don't have my eyes wide shut either.

[mcurrier]

An interesting study on "coexistism"

[TMF]

Well put Hershmeister!

I do not hate muslims. I do not fear muslims. But I also don't have my eyes wide shut either.

Neither do I. I've spent nearly 4 years of my life living in Muslim countries so I've seen my share of things associated with the religion that I don't want to see here.

I've also have had the opportunity to meet, interact and live with more Muslims than 99% of folks here will ever meet in their life. My take, there are good and bad people in all cultures. What we want out of life and our priorities are pretty much the same: family, God, freedom, and a place to enjoy all those things. I'm not gonna stand up and sing kumbaya or anything; I have nothing against anyone that agrees/disagrees with Islam or do I care about Muslim rights outside of our borders. I just am offering insight into my experience with Muslims which is more than any of he folks here that denounce it as a religion that REQUIRES anti-American sentiment. I can tell you that the Quran and the hadiths don't reject American ideals anymore than the Old Testament, and most Muslims that weren't enemy either embrace or would love to embrace the freedoms we enjoy.

With that said, anyone who is an American citizen is a fellow American to me no matter their religion or political beliefs. To see a fellow American have their rights called into question because of their beliefs makes me very concerned for our country. Just as concerned as a bedwetter wanting to have the law take my guns away.

[TMF]

So when an imam is trained at Al Azhsr , this is like the Harvard of Islamic schools. You cant pretend he must be a moderate. The concept of radical islam being the oddball belief is completely an American concept. It's a false idea. Do your research and don't take your values and assume others share them.

That is like saying that anyone who attends Berkely is automatically a liberal. I can tell you that isn't true. Dealing in absolutes leaves no room for open mindedness.

Secondly, I've done plenty of research. I can't count how many country studies I've had to go through in addition to objective books I've read. That is on top of learning Arabic and spending time in at least 7 different Muslim countries totaling nearly 4 years.

I don't know what qualifies as "research" to you but I'd say I got it covered. You don't have to agree with me but you should at least recognize that I know what I'm talking about.

Edited June 19, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Hershmeister]

Ask Daniel Pearl about open mindedness.

[Hershmeister]

Maybe his surviving fathers words will have to be a substitute

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123362422088941893.html

[mcurrier]

With that said, anyone who is an American citizen is a fellow American to me no matter their religion or political beliefs. To see a fellow American have their rights called into question because of their beliefs makes me very concerned for our country. Just as concerned as a bedwetter wanting to have the law take my guns away.

I agree with you, and I hope that if/when the time ever comes, we can count on all people who are and have become American citizens to act like and remember that they are American citizens and stand with America. No one is calling into question their rights, only their true motives and those standing behind them who are pulling the strings, footing the bill, and who have ties with known radicals and with terrorism.

[TMF]

Ask Daniel Pearl about open mindedness.

Ask the 16 Muslim women and children that were murdered in their homes by an American Soldier what they think about tolerance. The actions of a few don't speak for the other billion. If that is logical then it is also logical to take away your permit to carry when a HCP holder goes on a shooting spree.

[TMF]

I agree with you, and I hope that if/when the time ever comes, we can count on all people who are and have become American citizens to act like and remember that they are American citizens and stand with America. No one is calling into question their rights, only their true motives and those standing behind them who are pulling the strings, footing the bill, and who have ties with known radicals and with terrorism.

Oh yeah, if this Mosque is found to have real ties to terrorist activities I'd be the first to be calling a representative to have it shut down. I just don't like the idea of folks trying to curtail a citizen's rights. That is what this lawyer is all about.

From what I see this Mosque has been a part of the community for 30 years. Now that the second and third generation folks are here they need a bigger Mosque because they can't fit into the old one. All sounds reasonable to me. What has suddenly changed? No one was outraged about the existence of this Mosque for 30 years; now it is suddenly a problem.

Aside from that we can debate the validity of Islam and how it breeds extremism all day. Whether we agree or not I think that when it comes to rights we should be looking at it as objectively as possible. Like I said, I classify Islam right there with Scientology.

Edited June 19, 2012 by TMF 18B

[robin48]

Oh yeah, if this Mosque is found to have real ties to terrorist activities I'd be the first to be calling a representative to have it shut down. I just don't like the idea of folks trying to curtail a citizen's rights. That is what this lawyer is all about.

From what I see this Mosque has been a part of the community for 30 years. Now that the second and third generation folks are here they need a bigger Mosque because they can't fit into the old one. All sounds reasonable to me. What has suddenly changed? No one was outraged about the existence of this Mosque for 30 years; now it is suddenly a problem.

Aside from that we can debate the validity of Islam and how it breeds extremism all day. Whether we agree or not I think that when it comes rights we should be looking at it as objectively as possible. Like I said, I classify Islam right there with Scientology.

I wish I could be objective. I was in Beirut when they blew up Marines I had just brought there. Islam is not a religion of peace. I don't hate every muslim I just don't trust a one.

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