Question about self defense in your home

[DaveS]

It doesn't matter to me...front, back, side, top or bottom, if they survive "Rufus, Hope, Buster and Dixie"...me putting them down with one or more "gunshots" would be a blessing to them! I pray for their families!

[Guest JHansonLPN]

Castle doctrine, imminent danger, etc. not withstanding, I don't think I could bring myself to fire the first shot into a man's back with no warning. Had there been verbal threats, shots already fired, or they were between me and my loved ones... no worries.

I am not an attorney, but I am a former LEO (Kentucky and Florida), so take this for a grain of salt. It has been my understanding that you are only allowed to use deadly force to prevent the immanent use of deadly force against you or another or to prevent a forcible felony such as rape or kidnapping. Generally, if someone has made unlawful entry into your home, you have prima facie evidence that the person is there to do you harm (especially in your scenario where there are multiple individuals who are armed). Unless that state has a statutory duty to retreat, you are allowed to claim self defense if you use deadly force against them. With that said, I would not engage an individual without challenging them to halt. This would give them an opportunity to identify themselves if they happened to be a family member (one good reason not to sneak up and shoot someone in the back). It would also give them a chance to comply so you could hold them for police, or they might flee, thus saving you a TON of stress and grief for shooting someone (just think about poor old George Zimmerman). My advice is to never use deadly force unless there is truly no other option. Obviously, if you were to challenge them, it would be wise to take up a defensive position of concealment and cover in case they did wheel around and try to take a shot at you. I also like to keep a very bright flashlight next to my handgun since a little blinding light never hurts to gain a momentary advantage.

As an aside, this myth that you can never shoot someone in the back is just that: a myth. If the suspect is getting ready to cause grievous bodily harm to another and the only shot you have is to shoot them in the back, then so be it. As long as the shooting was legally justified, it doesn't matter how you engage the target, how many times you shoot them, or whether they were facing you or not. The problem here is that so many people unquestionably buy into this myth (including LEOs) that you do face a tougher challenge in proving a justifiable use of deadly force. Just one more reason to make sure you have no other options before pulling that trigger.

I carry to protect my family, two armed men found in my house, I'm going to take every tactical advantage I can get. I am not going to announce myself, give orders, or fight fair in any way, my house, my rules. My families safety comes first.

[Guest Catfish36]

Ok...so all of this brings up another question..one that I thought of during the class but never asked. My instructor was a fan of "concealed carry" (not to bring this up again)..his reason was the "element of surprise" thing..he said this gave him an advantage or upper hand. However, when he later talked about home invasion and what to do..he said..."have a plan and know what you are going to do and say"..then he proceeded to yell loudly on purpose to startle the class .."You are trespassing in my home..LEAVE OR I WILL SHOOT"...

My thoughts...you want to conceal so you have the element of surprise, but in your home you want to announce you have a gun and intend to use it?????....never made much sense to me..Maybe you should let the loud bang from your firearm do the announcing and maybe the bad guy can leave before the lead reaches him?

This scene is played out by every bad guy in almost every movie..you get to the end of the movie and the bad guy seems to have the upper hand..he is pointing a gun at the hero and it seems there is no way out..but then he starts the monologue..he talks and talks proclaiming his victory..but while he is talking..something happens and he is overtaken. Just shut up and pull the trigger!!

Edited May 30, 2012 by Catfish36

[Worriedman]

Scenario: You are awakened by sounds of someone in your house. You sneak out and see two men, obviously armed, with their backs to you. Can you shoot the first one in the back or do you have to warn them to turn around, creating a reasonable chance that one of them will at least get off a shot and could kill you.

Glenn

Under 39-11-611. Self-defense.

[2] [C] [c] Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury within a residence, business, dwelling or vehicle is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury to self, family, a member of the household or a person visiting as an invited guest, when that force is used against another person, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence, business, dwelling or vehicle, and the person using defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

Better make sure they are not Law Enforcement:

[d] (4) The person against whom force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in § 39-11-106, who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, business, residence, or vehicle in the performance of the officer's official duties, and the officer identified the officer in accordance with any applicable law, or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

More complicated than one might imagine.

[BrasilNuts]

When I was 6 years old my Father and I lived in Applewood apartments in Oak Ridge. One spring day I was sitting in our apartment watching cartoons while my Father was next door talking to our neighbor. I heard a loud scream come from next door so I went to see what was going on. As I stepped out of our front door I was almost run over by a guy holding the side of his face with blood pouring from around his hand. My neighbors ex-husband had shown up and didn't like the idea of my Father being there so he attacked him. The x was much larger than my Father and had him pushed into the kitchen up against the counter. I don't know who was getting the better of who at that point, but my Father was able to reach a glass 1 liter returnable Coke bottle and whacked the guy on the head with it.

Fight over.

I remember my Father sitting me down and explaing what had happened and why he did what he did. The one thing he said that I will never forget is "Son, there's no such thing as a fair fight."

I have a wife and two small children in my home.

When it comes to their protection I will follow my Fathers advice.

Edited May 30, 2012 by BrasilNuts

[DaveS]

Ok...so all of this brings up another question..one that I thought of during the class but never asked. My instructor was a fan of "concealed carry" (not to bring this up again)..his reason was the "element of surprise" thing..he said this gave him an advantage or upper hand. However, when he later talked about home invasion and what to do..he said..."have a plan and know what you are going to do and say"..then he proceeded to yell loudly on purpose to startle the class .."You are trespassing in my home..LEAVE OR I WILL SHOOT"...

My thoughts...you want to conceal so you have the element of surprise, but in your home you want to announce you have a gun and intend to use it?????....never made much sense to me..Maybe you should let the loud bang from your firearm do the announcing and maybe the bad guy can leave before the lead reaches him?

This scene is played out by every bad guy in almost every movie..you get to the end of the movie and the bad guy seems to have the upper hand..he is pointing a gun at the hero and it seems there is no way out..but then he starts the monologue..he talks and talks proclaiming his victory..but while he is talking..something happens and he is overtaken. Just shut up and pull the trigger!!

For most of us, I think having to pull the trigger on another human being (military service put aside), is the last thing most of us ever wants to do. My "instructor" taught us to "shout a warning" to a perpetrator in a self defense situation to "CYA"! "Stop, for your own safety, STOP"...shoot...game over! I think anytime you can give a warning to the other party...you have done all you could do before you send rounds down range. I think when you warn someone (even in military action) that they should cease their current activities or risk being killed....that's their sole decicision to make. Our handgun instructor many years ago was involved in a self defense shooting inside his home. When the police and EMS arrived, he was giving the perpertrator first aid. That went along ways....I would do the same.

Edited May 30, 2012 by wd-40

[daddyo]

Better make sure they are not Law Enforcement

Law enforcement better make damn sure they announce themselves before they enter my home at 3am.

[DaveS]

Some where in Tennessee (I think it was), a few years ago, an elderly man and his wife were sleeping in their bed. At about 2 in the morning, police busted into his house. The homeowner, thinking he was being robbed during a home invasion, reached for his pistol on his night stand and was shot and killed by police as he sat up in his bed to defend himself and his wife. The police was actualy serving a warrant intended for a different house. The cops were at the wrong address. That was one hell of a price to pay due to someone elses stupidity!

[DaveTN]

Some where in Tennessee (I think it was), a few years ago, an elderly man and his wife were sleeping in their bed. At about 2 in the morning, police busted into his house. The homeowner, thinking he was being robbed during a home invasion, reached for his pistol on his night stand and was shot and killed by police as he sat up in his bed to defend himself and his wife. The police was actualy serving a warrant intended for a different house. The cops were at the wrong address. That was one hell of a price to pay due to someone elses stupidity!

Are you talking about John Adams of Lebanon? He was in his living room watching TV at 10PM when cops had the wrong house on a drug raid. They knocked and then forced the door. Unfortunately for him they gave him enough time to retrieve a shotgun and fire a shot at the Officers. They returned fire killing him.

[Garufa]

Unfortunately for Adams they had the wrong house.

[DaveS]

Are you talking about John Adams of Lebanon? He was in his living room watching TV at 10PM when cops had the wrong house on a drug raid. They knocked and then forced the door. Unfortunately for him they gave him enough time to retrieve a shotgun and fire a shot at the Officers. They returned fire killing him.

No, the one I'm thinking about was an elderly black man. He was shot and killed in his bed.

[Spook]

Seems its ok to shoot someone in the back in Miami...

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/05/30/police-mistake-bat-for-gun-shoot-latino-teen-in-back/#ixzz1wOAHxGb5?test=latestnews

[Guest oxfordgt]

If any body enters my home with out my consent is getting shot in the head. I don't care if they are armed or not, facing me or not. Criminals deserve to die and if they are in my house they are criminals there trying to harm me or my family.

[zapfbroad]

One of my sons asked me this question and I wasn't sure of the answer so thought I would post it here. Scenario: You are awakened by sounds of someone in your house. You sneak out and see two men, obviously armed, with their backs to you. Can you shoot the first one in the back or do you have to warn them to turn around, creating a reasonable chance that one of them will at least get off a shot and could kill you.

Glenn

If as u say they are obviously armed then I would actively work to defend the household by whatever stealthy means are necessary includin diversions & subterfuge. If they were not Obviously armed as in brandishing weapons I would still assume they were armed but keeping their hands free to steal until such time as they felt threatened enough to draw their weapons. Most anyone involved in a breaking & entering will be armed. I would hope to respond with enough tactical awareness to be able Assess, Plan & Execute. The unfortunate truth is due to the sheer amount of adrenaline & emotion I may not have the cognitive processing to do much beyond rely on muscle memory of house clearing & defending drills.

It would be nice to conduct interrogation before life expiry so I can know what clandestine organization is looking to scrub my name from the registers, questioning would occur after putting my tinfoil hat back on lest the reflective appearance cost me a tactical advantage...

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

[kwe45919]

It would be nice to conduct interrogation before life expiry so I can know what clandestine organization is looking to scrub my name from the registers, questioning would occur after putting my tinfoil hat back on lest the reflective appearance cost me a tactical advantage...

That is a funny way of putting it,.

[Guest bkelm18]

If any body enters my home with out my consent is getting shot in the head. I don't care if they are armed or not, facing me or not. Criminals deserve to die and if they are in my house they are criminals there trying to harm me or my family.

I'd be careful about saying things like that on a public forum. Just my two cents.

[Timestepper]

If any body enters my home with out my consent is getting shot in the head. I don't care if they are armed or not, facing me or not. Criminals deserve to die and if they are in my house they are criminals there trying to harm me or my family.

Boy,oh boy - You self-proclaimed bad-@sses scare hell outta' me... and not because I'm a criminal!

[kwe45919]

Boy,oh boy - You self-proclaimed bad-@sses scare hell outta' me... and not because I'm a criminal!

Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!

[Guest oxfordgt]

Boy,oh boy - You self-proclaimed bad-@sses scare hell outta' me... and not because I'm a criminal!

I'm not claiming to be a bad ass but I will do whatever I need to to protect my family.

[Guest bkelm18]

I'm not claiming to be a bad ass but I will do whatever I need to to protect my family.

I would hope that would include not giving any potential prosecuter anything to hold against you... like statements made on the internet.

[Makiaveli]

I'm gonna have to go with if I am truly in fear of my life, and being out numbered would definitely do the trick, then as like my dad said, Never start a fight, never hold back in a fight.

[Guest BungieCord]

Tenneessee does stipulate you need no further proof of intent to do harm than they broke in to your home. Regarding being sued, the back half of Tennessee's castle doctrine law states the homeowner is immunized against civil suit for defending himself against a break-in.

No, the one I'm thinking about was an elderly black man. He was shot and killed in his bed.

Mr. Adams was a 61-yo black man, shot by Lebanon city police who raided the wrong house. The story that circulated was that he was shot in bed, which wasn't true. Story in the Washington Post here.

[Guest oxfordgt]

I would hope that would include not giving any potential prosecuter anything to hold against you... like statements made on the internet.

The castle law allows me to take out any intruder in my house, that's all I'm saying

[Caster]

The castle law allows me to take out any intruder in my house, that's all I'm saying

And you can sue someone for farting next to you in a civil court. You can be well within your rights and have no criminal charges pressed.....and still lose everything you have. Welcome to amerika comrade.

[Oh Shoot]

The castle law allows me to take out any intruder in my house, that's all I'm saying

Within the extent of its intent and without conflicting evidence that you were at some point no longer in fear of your life or serious injury. It does not however, grant you the right to execute the intruder.

Example: Perp falls to knees with hands up, you walk up to him and put one in his forehead.

Example: You drop the perp with shot to pelvis, he writhes on floor helplessly. Then you walk up and put two in his chest.

Example: etc.

Any number of cases where forensic evidence alone might get one charged. Not to mention some witness who was there and told the exact truth.

- OS

Edited June 1, 2012 by OhShoot