16 Open Carriers vs Several Police Officers!

[Steelharp]

So, the camera operator is against open carry?

Huh? That doesn't even make sense... if you're trying to make a point... you aren't.

The discussion is about 16 folks all getting together with the thought of, "Hey, let's start some crap." Try to focus.

[Oh Shoot]

Am I required to show it?

In TN, yes. In MO, open carry where not locally banned requires no permit, so the request is non sequitur. Would be like asking for your driver's license to show it is legal for you to walk.

I wasn't aware of that, even though I've carried there. If no permit is required, then the cops were just wrong.

No permit required for open carry statewide, but not preempted, local gummit may have ordinance against it. Note that someone stated in video that no local ordinance existed where they were.

- OS

[JayC]

Stupid baiters trying to make a point.

And that point is what?

That law abiding adults can carry firearms for defense without permission for the state? Or that law abiding citizens shouldn't be harassed by the police when it's obvious they aren't master criminals?

Just how long did it take the officers to figure out these folks weren't at the steak and shake to rob the place?

[BigK]

I noticed that cops often seem to ask for ID even if they don't think you did something wrong. I get the impressions it's a stall tactic. They aren't technically detaining you, but with your ID in their hand it gives them time to assess a situation. You are still free to go, but wouldn't likely leave without your ID. So, it seems to me like a way to keep you from leaving without detaining you.

In a way it's a smart tactic, but it seems to have become SOP. Maybe that's why it's not a bad idea to refuse, even if it would defuse a situation. If enough people refuse, they'll stop asking for your papers unless they have PC.

[Steelharp]

I noticed that cops often seem to ask for ID even if they don't think you did something wrong. I get the impressions it's a stall tactic. They aren't technically detaining you, but with your ID in their hand it gives them time to assess a situation.

Never thought of that; interesting...

[DaveTN]

I noticed that cops often seem to ask for ID even if they don't think you did something wrong. I get the impressions it's a stall tactic. They aren't technically detaining you, but with your ID in their hand it gives them time to assess a situation. You are still free to go, but wouldn't likely leave without your ID. So, it seems to me like a way to keep you from leaving without detaining you.

In a way it's a smart tactic, but it seems to have become SOP. Maybe that's why it's not a bad idea to refuse, even if it would defuse a situation. If enough people refuse, they'll stop asking for your papers unless they have PC.

Warrants.

It's just good Police work. Good cops will never stop asking for ID. If you are in a situation where you don’t have to show ID; then don’t show it.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Just a perfect example of why I will never open carry. Why go through all of this hassle to prove a point in exchange for giving up the tactical advantage of keeping a low profile? Like I've said dozens of times before, most LEOs carry concealed off-duty. There's a reason why they do it and it's not because they think it's polite.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I noticed that cops often seem to ask for ID even if they don't think you did something wrong. I get the impressions it's a stall tactic. They aren't technically detaining you, but with your ID in their hand it gives them time to assess a situation. You are still free to go, but wouldn't likely leave without your ID. So, it seems to me like a way to keep you from leaving without detaining you.

In a way it's a smart tactic, but it seems to have become SOP. Maybe that's why it's not a bad idea to refuse, even if it would defuse a situation. If enough people refuse, they'll stop asking for your papers unless they have PC.

It's not a stalling tactic. LEOs are taught to ID everyone they come into contact with so they have the person's info in case they are involved in criminal activity and the officers don't realize it at the moment and to do a warrant check on them. Also, many officers will put your ID in their pocket until they are done with the encounter in case you decide to attack them. It's unlikely that you will take the time dig through the officer's pocket to look for your ID, or even remember to do it, before you flee. At least when the responding officers arrive, they can get the suspect's info from the ID in your pocket. When I was a LEO, I would even get ID from my complainants/victims. There were multiple times when I found these folks had warrants for them.

Let's take the original scenario in the video for instance. We now know who these folks were, they know who they are, but the responding officers don't and the employees at the restaurant don't know who they are. All they know is a bunch of folks with guns strapped on all showed up at the restaurant, which is pretty unusual. What if these people had been members of the Sovereign Citizens or some other group who then decided to rob the place after the cops left? At least then the police would already have their information on hand for the follow-up investigation.

Edited May 29, 2012 by East_TN_Patriot

[Steelharp]

Let's take the original scenario in the video for instance. We now know who these folks were, they know who they are, but the responding officers don't and the employees at the restaurant don't know who they are. All they know is a bunch of folks with guns strapped on all showed up at the restaurant, which is pretty unusual.

Yoo hoo!!! Again, it's their monthly meeting....

[BigK]

Interesting...figured there must be some logic behind it, otherwise it wouldn't be such a widespread practice.

[JayC]

Yeah, 16 folks walk into a steak and shake with a firearm in a holster, with their wives and children, sit down and order food... And obviously they could be some militia unit who is about to Rob the place... Oh wait, they could also be a sleeper cell of AQAP terrorists thee to attack the place!

Come on we can all come up with what if... But none of them reach the level of probable cause...

I don't fault the officers stopping by, saying hello, and interacting with these guys... I don't even fault them for asking for ID, just how they reacted when they were politely told no. It's clear from the video that this was not a group of master criminals, just a bunch of guys who were having dinner, and talking about firearms... And very likely to take offense to be asked for their IDs.

You didn't need 5 or 6 officers to respond or send a patty wagon down there. Two or three officers should have been plenty and it shouldn't have taken them 5 minutes to determine no crime was being committed and move along.

It's not a stalling tactic. LEOs are taught to ID everyone they come into contact with so they have the person's info in case they are involved in criminal activity and the officers don't realize it at the moment and to do a warrant check on them. Also, many officers will put your ID in their pocket until they are done with the encounter in case you decide to attack them. It's unlikely that you will take the time dig through the officer's pocket to look for your ID, or even remember to do it, before you flee. At least when the responding officers arrive, they can get the suspect's info from the ID in your pocket. When I was a LEO, I would even get ID from my complainants/victims. There were multiple times when I found these folks had warrants for them.

Let's take the original scenario in the video for instance. We now know who these folks were, they know who they are, but the responding officers don't and the employees at the restaurant don't know who they are. All they know is a bunch of folks with guns strapped on all showed up at the restaurant, which is pretty unusual. What if these people had been members of the Sovereign Citizens or some other group who then decided to rob the place after the cops left? At least then the police would already have their information on hand for the follow-up investigation.

[TMF]

Officers had no choice but to respond to a MWG call. It is the world we live in. Showing up with a buttload of officers was probably SOP for MWG calls. Looks like it got sorted out without issue. I would think folks would want to be cooperative with LE so the situation could be resolved quicker. To each their own.

[RobertNashville]

I noticed that cops often seem to ask for ID even if they don't think you did something wrong. I get the impressions it's a stall tactic. They aren't technically detaining you, but with your ID in their hand it gives them time to assess a situation. You are still free to go, but wouldn't likely leave without your ID. So, it seems to me like a way to keep you from leaving without detaining you.

In a way it's a smart tactic, but it seems to have become SOP. Maybe that's why it's not a bad idea to refuse, even if it would defuse a situation. If enough people refuse, they'll stop asking for your papers unless they have PC.

Unless I'm misinformed, a police office has the right to ask for ID and while you have the right to not give it, they then have the right to detain you (for up to 72 hours I think) until they DO know who you are and I don't believe they need probably cause of anything other than wanting to identify who you are - if I've got that wrong then someone please correct me.

My point here is that regardless of the "open carry" issue, I see little to no benefit in refusing to supply your ID when asked by a LEO; unless of course your purpose is to create an incident (and one you are likely to lose).

[BrasilNuts]

Officers had no choice but to respond to a MWG call. It is the world we live in. Showing up with a buttload of officers was probably SOP for MWG calls. Looks like it got sorted out without issue. I would think folks would want to be cooperative with LE so the situation could be resolved quicker. To each their own.

ID from the OCers had nothing to do with the speed of resolution of this situation.

"If you show me your ID it will speed this up and we can both be on our way."

"If you let me search your car it will speed this up and we can both be on our way."

Trading our rights so we are not inconvenienced.

.

[JayC]

Unless I'm misinformed, a police office has the right to ask for ID and while you have the right to not give it, they then have the right to detain you (for up to 72 hours I think) until they DO know who you are and I don't believe they need probably cause of anything other than wanting to identify who you are - if I've got that wrong then someone please correct me.

My point here is that regardless of the "open carry" issue, I see little to no benefit in refusing to supply your ID when asked by a LEO; unless of course your purpose is to create an incident (and one you are likely to lose).

Not in this state they don't.

They can only hold you if there is probably cause that you have or are about to commit a crime,

They can ask for your ID all day long, but rarely do they have a legal basis to require you to provide ID, and frankly, unless I'm suspected of criminal act, it's none of their business who I am...

The truth is I generally treat LEO's the same as I would any other person... They walk up to me, shake my hand and introduce themselves... start up a conversation with me, I'll treat them just like I would any other person doing the same... they come up and act rude, and start asking me personal questions that are none of their business, I'm going to politely tell them no thanks.

I've had police officers ask for an ID, I've politely said no, using joking about it... never had an incident or problem out of it... then again I've opened carried around a lot of officers in my day and have never once been asked for my HCP. So maybe I'm lucky... Truth is I've never really had a bad experience with an officer, but I know I've just been lucky so far

[RobertNashville]

"They can only hold you if there is probably cause that you have or are about to commit a crime".

Tha's fine but all they have to do is "decide" that they have suspicion and they have all the cause they need to detain you until they've identified who you are.

While such a "decision" may not carry the day in court, you'll go through some substantial hassle before you get to the courtroom...personally, I don't like sitting in a jail cell just to make a point that likely didn't need to be made in the first place.

Refusing to give ID or at least truthfully identify yourself seems like an easy way to escalate a non-problem into an unnecessary confrontation.

Edited May 30, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Guest A10thunderbolt]

If a LEO ask's to search my car and I refuse, am I not wasting my own money? We pay them to enforce the law and if they feel the need to search my car its no sweat of my back. I think if enough people refuse searches they will look at it as a oportunity to creat a law to force searches and ID on everyone. They work for us why give them a hard time about it?

[hornett22]

Yeah, 16 folks walk into a steak and shake with a firearm in a holster, with their wives and children, sit down and order food... And obviously they could be some militia unit who is about to Rob the place... Oh wait, they could also be a sleeper cell of AQAP terrorists thee to attack the place!

Come on we can all come up with what if... But none of them reach the level of probable cause...

I don't fault the officers stopping by, saying hello, and interacting with these guys... I don't even fault them for asking for ID, just how they reacted when they were politely told no. It's clear from the video that this was not a group of master criminals, just a bunch of guys who were having dinner, and talking about firearms... And very likely to take offense to be asked for their IDs.

You didn't need 5 or 6 officers to respond or send a patty wagon down there. Two or three officers should have been plenty and it shouldn't have taken them 5 minutes to determine no crime was being committed and move along.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[RobertNashville]

It doesn't take an advanced degree to figure out that when a bunch of people open carry and walk into a restaurant; there is a pretty decent chance that some anti-gun nut or worse, some uneducated but perhaps well-meaning sheep is going to overact and likely call the police. People who OC can complain about that all they want but it won't change the very predictable outcome. If people chose to OC that's fine but there is no reason to be surprised that it can cause a problem...as was said before, there are more people around who don't like guns (or at least don't like seeing people carrying guns) than there are those who understand why it's not just ok and not just a "right" but that armed, law-abiding citizens is a good thing.

Yeah...the police probably overacted just as whoever called the police in the first place did...I'm not justifying the reaction; simply saying that it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Oh Shoot]

....

Yeah...the police probably overacted just as whoever called the police in the first place did...I'm not justifying the reaction; simply saying that it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Seems to be much less overreaction in states where there is constitutional open carry.

The legality of the practice seems to get known better when it's not against the law in the first place.

- OS

[BigK]

I'm still torn here

...one side of my brain says OC is part of a set of rights that must be exercised to be kept, so tote 'em if ya got 'em

...the other side of my brain says OC the Brady activist types want more laws that cost us more rights, so don't scare the sheep

[JayC]

"They can only hold you if there is probably cause that you have or are about to commit a crime".

Tha's fine but all they have to do is "decide" that they have suspicion and they have all the cause they need to detain you until they've identified who you are.

While such a "decision" may not carry the day in court, you'll go through some substantial hassle before you get to the courtroom...personally, I don't like sitting in a jail cell just to make a point that likely didn't need to be made in the first place.

Refusing to give ID or at least truthfully identify yourself seems like an easy way to escalate a non-problem into an unnecessary confrontation.

It could and probably does happen, more often than we all like to admit... but they don't have a right to force somebody to identify themselves just because they want to know...

The real question is, if you REALLY think that your local police department would make stuff up just to lock somebody up who isn't breaking the law, what are you doing to fix that problem? Because they don't loose their jobs when they do stuff like that, your taxes go up to pay for the lawsuit the city looses...

The increases in insurance fees, or in the case of self insured cities and counties payouts are a matter of public record... go down and ask to see the budget sometime for your local PD, and wait for you eyes to bug out in how much we the tax payers are paying for that line item.

Edited May 31, 2012 by JayC

[JayC]

If a LEO ask's to search my car and I refuse, am I not wasting my own money? We pay them to enforce the law and if they feel the need to search my car its no sweat of my back. I think if enough people refuse searches they will look at it as a oportunity to creat a law to force searches and ID on everyone. They work for us why give them a hard time about it?

I'm a law abiding citizen who doesn't like having my time wasted... who doesn't want some stranger rooting through my personal belongings and papers... I work hard, why are they wasting my time?

Again, no issue with them asking to search or see an ID, just an issue with them getting upset when you politely tell them no.

I've not had this type of bad experience before, but it's clear it happens a lot more often than it should... Most of these videos seem like a power trip for the police officers, instead of really trying to protect law abiding citizens.

There was absolutely no need to pull that guy away from his friends and his meal... So why do it? The likely reasons aren't good.

[Guest bluecanary25]

As OhShoot has pointed out, carrying a handgun is against the Law in Tennessee. A Tn HCP is a defense to the Law.

The Tn AG wrote an opinion that the Permit does not require concealment. In a recent thread it has been noted that in Tn, if LEO askes for one's permit, one must comply. In Tennessee.

In the state this video is reportedly taken, I do not know for sure what the Law dictates.

Had the people violated any Laws, especially being armed, they would have been arrested.

No Laws broken, no arrests made.

It would appear that there is no Law REQUIRING proof of identity where this video was taken...

So the people having their meal employed their" Rights", as defined in their locality.

While engaged in a legal and morally acceptable activity, local LEOs are called in by some third party, for whatever reason.

No crime is being commited and no serious potential of a crime to be commited. (It's a family style gathering). Assaying the situation; no threat to the Public. Duty/obligation fulfilled, time to go to the next task or fill out incident report.

Now LEO starts to press for things outside his authority.

This is where I see a problem. Once outside his authority, where does the line of questioning stop?

[Are you an alcoholic? Do you have a receipt for that gun? How many guns do you have at home? Ever have a STD?]

Questions that many members here would tell the officer where to go and how to get there.........

Because the officer has no authority to ask these types of questions relative to the situation (probable cause).

I see these people are using their Second and Fourth Amendment Rights.

[hornett22]

Sorry but I'm not catering to these peoples fears and emotions. If they don't like it,They can move back up north.