Reloading Problems

[dbla]

Hey guys I've been reloading 9mm for about a year or so and for the first time I've had problems.

My rounds are failing to eject, and failing to feed. I'm loading with 115gr jacketed bullets using 4.2gr of NO. 2 as per my loading manual. Would this be to OAL discrepancies?? They are FTFing and FTEing with multiple guns.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[SonnyCrockett]

well........whats your OAL ?

Mines 1.14 never jammed one yet - Case Gauge is also nice to have

I never use a loading manual for a recipe,just use the power MFG recipes as a starting point - MFGs know better

short loads wont run in a semi auto......

Edited May 25, 2012 by SonnyCrockett

[dbla]

I guess I should have included that, I was loading to the specifications of my Lee loading manual which stated 1.169 for 9mm, now I measured every couple rounds and I was generally within .001 of that... however if you're loading to 1.14 then I'm pretty far off. I'll check Accurate's load recipes to see.

And a case gauge is on the short list of things to buy this week.

-a

[Guest Lester Weevils]

It could be many things and I'm no authority. The only way I've had persistent fail-to-eject paired with fail-to-load was from too-weak a load.

If it doesn't want to load if you lock the slide back, insert a mag, then release the slide-- If it gets all turned around just trying to enter the chamber then maybe it has something to do with OAL or whatever. If releasing the slide on a mag won't chamber a round then that wouldn't have anything to do with how much powder is inside the case.

If the load isn't strong enough to work the slide you can get stove-pipes and other situations where the fired case is still stuck in the action somewhere. If the load is a little stronger it will have enough energy to eject but not enough energy to drive the slide all the way back, so it can't strip off the next round out of the mag, and you have a fail to load.

If the load gets strong enough to both eject and load, then it can sometimes still be a little too weak to lock back the slide on an empty mag. If the slide isn't "quite" going far enough back to catch on the little stub in the empty mag.

[Raoul]

I agree with Lester, sounds like a combination of things. The rounds may not feed due to a case with too much bell at the mouth.

FTE does sound like a weak load. As for the 1.169 that's maximum length.

[Caster]

I feel like a scratched CD I say this so much, but......if you're not using a Lee factory crimp die, consider it. It will solve a great many problems. Just be mindful if you're loading cast.

[greyofk]

I can suggest a simple test

Load the gun with 1 round

Keep it as weak as you can (it is safe with 1 round) and fire

If the slide goes on the slide stop your problem is related to the cartridge geometry

If not, it is related to the powder charge (I assume you do not have occasional media particles in your primer pockets)

[Guest canebreaker]

dbla, I haven't been out to the mall since before the flood. The tool barn had a caliper for a dollar. I bought 2 for that price. I'm still using the first, since it's plastic.

[dbla]

dbla, I haven't been out to the mall since before the flood. The tool barn had a caliper for a dollar. I bought 2 for that price. I'm still using the first, since it's plastic.

Yeah I've got a pair, I believe I was just loading too long. I'm going to correct that next time around.

[dbla]

I feel like a scratched CD I say this so much, but......if you're not using a Lee factory crimp die, consider it. It will solve a great many problems. Just be mindful if you're loading cast.

I do! :-)

[dbla]

It could be many things and I'm no authority. The only way I've had persistent fail-to-eject paired with fail-to-load was from too-weak a load.

If it doesn't want to load if you lock the slide back, insert a mag, then release the slide-- If it gets all turned around just trying to enter the chamber then maybe it has something to do with OAL or whatever. If releasing the slide on a mag won't chamber a round then that wouldn't have anything to do with how much powder is inside the case.

If the load isn't strong enough to work the slide you can get stove-pipes and other situations where the fired case is still stuck in the action somewhere. If the load is a little stronger it will have enough energy to eject but not enough energy to drive the slide all the way back, so it can't strip off the next round out of the mag, and you have a fail to load.

If the load gets strong enough to both eject and load, then it can sometimes still be a little too weak to lock back the slide on an empty mag. If the slide isn't "quite" going far enough back to catch on the little stub in the empty mag.

Yeah I believe I was having two problems, loading the rounds a little light, and having the OAL set too long. So, I wasn't gaining any pressure with seating depth. I was having slide locking back issues, as well as feeding issues. I believe I'll easily be able to correct that next time around.

[BigK]

I only have one gun that doesn't jam on rounds longer than 1.14".

glad to see you got some solid advice

[SonnyCrockett]

id drop back in OAL and add in some more powder

Yeah I believe I was having two problems, loading the rounds a little light, and having the OAL set too long. So, I wasn't gaining any pressure with seating depth. I was having slide locking back issues, as well as feeding issues. I believe I'll easily be able to correct that next time around.

sounds like a plan,is start with dropping the OAL down and make up 15 rounds and try em out ,,,,,,,,,according to AAs data sheets 4.2 should be plenty of ummph

if not you can try more powder

[BigK]

I'm sure you already know this, but it's worth saying in case someone less experienced is reading... be careful about shortening and adding more powder at the same time. Pressures can rise quickly doing both.

[mikegideon]

I feel like a scratched CD I say this so much, but......if you're not using a Lee factory crimp die, consider it. It will solve a great many problems.

Truth. The FCD has a carbide sizing ring that will resize the round of you have a bullet cocked. A case gauge is another must have in my book. Even with a Lee FCD, I wind up with a couple that are a little sticky in the case gauge. Those get set aside, so I know who they are when I shoot them.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yes one should be cautious. I have seven various/sundry 9mm pistols including a CZ85 and they all seem to work fine with Rainier 124gn softlead plated bullets at an OAL of 1.160. The sole reason I picked that near-max OAL-- Am using ramshot powder and the ramshot company load data has a recipe for that Rainier bullet which specs a 1.160 OAL. Maybe the profile slightly differs among various roundnose bullets, dunno. Found Hornady factory data for their 124gn fmj using an OAL of 1.150. Found other recipes and user reports (using Rainier and other brand 124 gn roundnose) at 1.125 and lower.

Hadn't thought to check whether the bullets hit the lands of the CZ-85 or whatever. Next time out shooting will try to remember to check on that.

Back when I shot Rainier 124 gn HP plated almost exclusively for practice loads-- Back then was using white paper targets and the HP made easier to see holes in the paper. Round nose cut "flaps" rather than nice round holes and they were hard to see from the firing line. Lately decided it is worth the money to make it easy on the eyes using "color change" stick-on targets and been getting not a bad deal ordering packs of 100 from midwayusa, Orange Peel targets. A fella could go broke buying the shoot'n'c color change targets in packs of 5 or 6 from walmart, though the targets work fine and I'd buy em if they were cheaper. You don't have to use so much tape with the stick-on targets so that saves a teeny bit of money, the targets go up quicker, and it is easy to see even .22 hits from the firing line, so seems a worthy luxury compared to computer printed targets or paper plates with an orange price sticker glommed in the center. Anyway, no need to spend a few bucks more for the plated hollow points with the color-change targets so switched to round-nose bullets.

The profile of the Rainier 124 gn HP is an "odd duck" dissimilar to other brands of HP bullet. Back then it was impossible to find load data so I experimentally laid the Rainier bullet on a sheet of paper comparing to factory round nose trying to find a "closest match" of what seating of the Rainier bullet would give similar cross-sections and angles as a factory round nose, when the bullet leaves a mag and slides up the feed ramp. Dunno anything about it, but seemed that "too long" the round might ride up the feed ramp and the flat part of the HP hit the top of the chamber and get stuck. Similarly it seemed at the time a too-short round might find a way to get stuck sideways rather than bounce straight into the chamber. After guesswork and testing, arrived at an OAL of 1.120 for that Rainier HP bullet which worked reliable for thousands of reloads over the years. An optical illusion caused by the odd profile of the Rainier HP bullet, the loaded rounds looked to the eye "stupid long" at 1.120 even though that isn't an unusually long OAL for 9mm. Ramshot nowadays publishes data for the Rainier 124gn HP as well, and they spec 1.110, which isn't too far off from what I experimentally came up with. But I haven't had any Rainier HP bullets lately to test against that 1.110 OAL to see if it feeds smooth. No reason to doubt that it would feed smooth, just never tested to find out.

My old practice loads were accurate but light, which had been worked up from minimum until just strong enough to lock-back the slide on the pistols I had at that time. When shooting up the last of those old reloads had got a couple of new pistols with stiffer slides, and my old light reloads had some stovepipes and fail-to-load. So started trying to load a little hotter while still staying within the published Max loads and no bad overpressure symptoms. Was already near-max with W231 powder and that is why went looking for a better powder for that weight of bullet. I could have boosted the W231 a couple more tenths of a grain but didn't trust my scale and didn't trust the standard deviation of my powder measure to go right up to max. I didn't have a good enough scale to reliably calculate the standard deviation of the powder measure. The scale would always measure the same weight within a tenth grain measuring 10 summed charges dumped into the powder pan. So "on average" the powder measure dumps the same every time, but didn't know the "spread" of each individual charge and my old scale drifted too much to have confidence in measuring a bunch of individual charges and getting meaningful data. The measurement noise might have been bigger than the standard deviation.

My XTP 124gn hp loads at factory 1.060"-- I rechecked the reloads and also factory XTP ammo last night with both a caliper and micrometer. Both my loads and the factory ammo seems to have a spread between 1.060 and 1.070. Am not smart enough to know why you would get an OAL variance coming out of the press, but I usually get a small OAL spread. Or maybe it is the fault of the idjit making the measurements. Some folks can take a measurement better than others. Have some Fiocchi factory loads using the same XTP 124 gn HP, but those are loaded a little longer around 1.082, which also seem to feed reliably.

The short stubby cone-shaped XTP's always fed fine in all my pistols except when I first got a taurus 9mm 1911, the taurus didn't like em. The taurus wanted to chamber about half of the short stubby rounds sideways. Maybe no surprise, as I've read that it isn't unusual to find .45 1911's that do not like anything except round nose. The taurus is a range toy and that wouldn't be a disappointment if they can't handle the XTP's. However after I'd had the taurus 9mm 1911 for about a year was testing some more XTP's and the taurus ran em fine the second time out. Dunno what would account for the difference but something either polished out or loosened up so that the taurus now will digest the short stubby XTPs just fine.

Dunno if "hotness" of the ammo affects feeding accuracy if a round is at least hot enough to lock back the slide. Maybe dolomite or somebody knows. The current loads are fairly hot but dunno if it improves reliability on the guns that will run fine on lighter loads. In a Beretta 92fs 4.9" barrel, 124gn Rainier RN chronos 1150 fps SD=13 NormSD=1.128%, and the 124gn XTP HP chronos 1193 fps SD=8.5 NormSD=0.71%

I got case gages from Dillon for about $16. They look like wrench bits from a socket set. Big hole on one end and little hole on the other. If the round drops in easy then the diameter is fine. If you can run yer finger flush across the back end the head spacing is fine. If the bullet doesn't poke out of the hole in the front then OAL ain't "too long".

Using the Square Deal B and the dillon SDB dies (which are the only ones in the world that will fit), I've never had trouble with ammo that won't fit the case gage, except when first setting OAL of course. Using the funky-shaped Rainier 124gn HP bullets I'd get occasional cocked bullets that were obviously not completely straight to the eye, but they always fit in the case gage and always went bang. Using the round nose or XTP bullets, haven't noticed any bullets cocked bad enough to be noticeable to the eye. The seater die seems shaped to be very forgiving. With the round nose or XTP-- If the bullet is pointing "approximately upwards" and not sitting sideways, the round comes out pretty straight. Don't have to take care that the bullet is sitting real straight before entering the die.

Ain't bragging, merely reporting. Never used anything else so maybe all the other presses and dies do as good or better.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[dbla]

Some great info in there Lester. Thanks.