Loading 9mm question

[gjohnsoniv]

I started loading up some 9mm last night but seem to be having some problems with the seating stage. I will post some pictures later but it looks like the case it getting smashed in at the base of the round. Does that mean that the seating die needs to be brought down more? Also there appears to be a tiny ring of copper around the edge of the case when I load, do I need to bell the cases out just a little bit more?

[Garufa]

do I need to bell the cases out just a little bit more?

Yes.

[gjohnsoniv]

Ok so what about the die smashing the case in?

[Raoul]

Is your OAL correct?

If the OAL is close and you're getting a crimp in the case it is probably becasue the mouth isn't belled enough for the bullet.

[gjohnsoniv]

Is your OAL correct?

If the OAL is close and you're getting a crimp in the case it is probably becasue the mouth isn't belled enough for the bullet.

I think my OAL might be too long. I was doing them the same as some lead rounds I loaded on Sunday but maybe that's too long for these.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Are you seating and crimping with the same die, or separate dies? I've never used a combo seat/crimp die but people seem to do OK with em.

Using separate seat/crimp dies, my seat die is set up to always go to the bottom of the case when the lever is fully worked, and a screw-adjusted seating stem that determines how deep the bullet is inserted. My seating die comes with a couple of different shape stems and you pick the one that "supports" the bullet the best to hold it as vertical as possible to avoid shaving the bullet during insertion because it isn't sitting vertical-enough.

If the seat die gets all the way down to cover the entire case as the bullet finishes seating, the body of the die tries to protect the case from crushing.

Some bullets have a rounded bottom edge and those seat easier without trying to shave metal off the side of the bullet. Square-edged bottoms on bullets are harder to seat. Most folks try to bell as little as possible to avoid over-working the case lip and to get as tight a fit as possible without having to rely on an aggressive crimp to hang onto the bullet.

[gjohnsoniv]

I got one of the RCBS carbide 3-die set so the seating/sizing are together. Would putting some pictures up later give a better idea of what I might be doing wrong?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If I'm understanding you, you can adjust your crimp back a little while seating at the right depth. Shouldn't

be a problem. Like Garufa and Raoul said on the bell:yes You don't need much crimp to get them right.

I have to bell the case on Golden Sabers more because of the shape, or it would make a mess like you

describe when seating. Keep playing and back off of your crimp.

[gjohnsoniv]

I made a royal mess of one of the rounds. I'll try that and see what happens.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Did you setup as described in this RCBS document, under the heading "Bullet Seating and Crimping for Taper Crimp"?

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/ReloadingDieInstructions.pdf

From their description it sounds like the easiest way to crush the cartridge is to have the seating die "body" adjusted too low.

I use a bell so slight that sometimes the bullet won't sit upright and it has to be held-in-place with fingers to feed it straight up into the seater die, and it doesn't shave the bullets. But some bullets may need more of a bell to feed correctly. I think the reason a few of my cases don't even bell enough to let the bullet sit upright, is because shorter cases obviously get less bell. The cases on the short end of the distribution get less bell and the cases on the long end of the distribution get more bell.

[gjohnsoniv]

I don't believe I did, but the instructions that came with the die set weren't exactly what I would call clear. When I get home tonight I'll try the way that that pdf suggests and see if I can't get it working.

I also don't think I'm seating them deep enough either because I tried one in my Sub 2k and it locked the bolt up, but when I got it undone there were rifling marks on the round so...

Edited May 23, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Easy to get confused. I don't have much mechanical aptitude and took me a long time to figure it out.

Apparently the crimp is a shoulder built into the body of the combo seat/crimp die. So you back off the die and back off the seater stem, run a case all the way up, then tighten the die down till it hits the case and then back off one revolution so the crimp shoulder can't touch the case.

Then experimentally seat a bullet, adjusting the seating stem down a little at a time until you seat the correct OAL.

At that point you would be properly setup if you are seating without crimping. If for instance you decided to add a separate crimp die, the seater die would already be set up perfect at that point.

To adjust crimp you would back off the seating stem again, and gradually tighten down the shell of the seating die until it makes the correct crimp on your sample bullet. Usually you just want a very slight barely-visible crimp. Barely detectable narrowing of the case mouth into the bullet. Unless the tiny crimp results in too-loose a bullet that sets back too easy. In which case you would increase the crimp a little more until the bullet is tight enough.

After the crimp is set you take your crimped round with the perfect OAL, run it up into the die and adjust the seating stem down until it is touching the bullet. Then the seat and crimp are both set properly.

Or at least that's what I get from the instructions. It sounds like a pretty neat design.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[gjohnsoniv]

I just need a better cut-a-way view of the die then I would understand it no problem, but I don't like this try this, then try again, then back off a quarter turn. That's the way it is though so I just have to deal with it. Then again I'm also new to the whole thing so that might have something to do with it, lol.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yeah the seat/crimp combo is a neat idea but I don't have experience with anything except separate seat/crimp dies on the dillon square deal B. It requires a bit of fiddling to get setup right on the SDB as well, though at least the seat adjustment doesn't interact with the crimp adjustment. Don't have much mechanical aptitude but even an idjit can eventually learn something and it comes easier now than in the past. Because of the fiddling and adjustment, I rarely change settings or components so that adjustment is held to a minimum.

A "theoretical" issue on the seat/crimp combo-- Probably no big deal but even if the die is set perfect, seems the bullet is still getting pushed down that last fraction of an inch when the crimp shoulder is putting the squeeze on the bullet. On the Rainier soft lead plated bullets, I have to put a little bit of a dent in the bullet with the crimp to hold it good enough to avoid setback. Just crimping "the tiniest amount" doesn't hold the bullet good enough even barely using any bell at all. Has to crimp a little more than "just the tiniest amount". Thinking about it-- with a combo seat/crimp die, a little bit of the Rainier soft lead would get a slight dent then get pushed down a little more into the case until the die bottoms out and completes the crimp. That would leave a slight amount of dent in the bullet below the final crimp line, which might make the bullet a little "wobblier" than if crimping separate from seating? If the crimp stage is separate, then the case mouth just bites into the lead right at the crimp line and nowhere else?

Some folks really brag on what good a job the Lee Factory crimp dies do. I got a couple of factory crimp dies to play with, but can't play with them in the SDB press because it doesn't use standard sized dies. One of these days will experiment with the factory crimp die using the hand-press, just to see if it seems to do a better job than the SDB crimp die.

For years loaded nothing in 9mm except 124 gn Rainier jhp plated bullets, all with about the same weight of W231 powder. After finding an OAL and powder load that worked the pistols, just kept doing what worked. In the great bullet famine of 2008 couldn't get Rainier so stocked up on a bunch of 124 gn XTP. Last year finally finished loading all the XTP up, and have about 900 still left in an ammo can. They are loaded pretty potent so saving em for a rainy day.

Midway had a sale on Rainier 124 gn roundnose and Rem 124 gn JHP, so got 3000 Rainier and 2000 Rem. Have loaded about half the Rainiers but ain't gonna setup for the Rem bullets til all the Rainiers are loaded.

[gjohnsoniv]

I guess also those Sierra JHP bullets may not have been the best choice in the first place, but I had the load data for those so I went with them. Might have to go back to Randy's and get some others. Stupid Gander has cut most of their reloading stuff.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Haven't read any comment that the Sierra bullets are anything but top notch. Dunno. Main reason I've never loaded any Sierra is because they seemed kinda expensive.

[gjohnsoniv]

Haven't read any comment that the Sierra bullets are anything but top notch. Dunno. Main reason I've never loaded any Sierra is because they seemed kinda expensive.

Yeah they are kinda pricey. Might just load up a hundred of them and load those into the Glock fun sticks for the subby.