Who has the right to ask you if you are carrying?

[Guest ab28]

You seem to be confusing your personal convictions with your rights.

They are one and the same. I don't carry in posted areas, unless I don't have a choice, meaning, a bad neighborhood and I don't want to leave my gun in my car. That decision is mine alone to make, not some BS liberal policy.

[DaveS]

They are one and the same. I don't carry in posted areas, unless I don't have a choice, meaning, a bad neighborhood and I don't want to leave my gun in my car. That decision is mine alone to make, not some BS liberal policy.

You've stated in several other posts, that you carry where you choose, "Gun Buster" sign or not. What changed?

[DaveTN]

The Constitutional rights are only there to protect you from the governement, not to protect you from other private citizens. And as such the Ammendments of Constitution do not apply to you in your dealings with other private entities. And a private entity can be an individual or a multinational corporation.

So if you think you are guaranteed any constitutional rights on someone else's property you are wrong.

Surprising how so many people that want to talk about their rights or quote the Constitution find that concept so hard to grasp.

[TMF]

Guess we will have to disagree on this. I don't let the government infringe on my rights, I definitely won't let a private citizen do it. My rights don't change based on whatever piece of ground I stand on. People give private property owners too much leeway. Me carrying a handgun is my own business, no one else's. My defense of my own life falls to me, no one else. Thus, they have no say in whether I carry or not. Sorry, just because someone owns more stuff than me doesn't give them the right to tell me what to do.

You can believe this all you want but if a business owner tells you to leave you have to do so. If you refuse you will be leaving in metal bracelets.

[Guest ab28]

You've stated in several other posts, that you carry where you choose, "Gun Buster" sign or not. What changed?

I usually won't, unless I am in an area where my gun might get stolen if I leave it in my car.

[Guest ab28]

You can believe this all you want but if a business owner tells you to leave you have to do so. If you refuse you will be leaving in metal bracelets.

I know, and I don't cause trouble. I have never been asked to leave from any business. I can understand it somewhat, as I had to make people leave at work, customers being drunk and getting rude with me, but if someone is minding their own business, it shouldn't matter. Fortunately, if they are making plenty of money, they are also pretty intelligent, and will generally not do irrational things like kick people out randomly. I mind my own business, and keep my weapon hidden. It is no one's concern. I have carried in people's homes for college studies off campus, that I knew were anti gun. I don't let irrational beliefs like that affect my judgement.

[BigK]

They are one and the same. I don't carry in posted areas, unless I don't have a choice, meaning, a bad neighborhood and I don't want to leave my gun in my car. That decision is mine alone to make, not some BS liberal policy.

Still sounds like you believe your personal rights supercede those of others (e.g. private property owners' rights).

If a propterty owner disallows guns and you feel like your safety is in question, your LEGAL choices include 1) go somewhere else and 2) risk disarming yourself. Any other choice is breaking the law, but if you feel you are above the law...it's your risk.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Guess we will have to disagree on this. I don't let the government infringe on my rights, I definitely won't let a private citizen do it. My rights don't change based on whatever piece of ground I stand on. People give private property owners too much leeway. Me carrying a handgun is my own business, no one else's. My defense of my own life falls to me, no one else. Thus, they have no say in whether I carry or not. Sorry, just because someone owns more stuff than me doesn't give them the right to tell me what to do.

Property owner rights have trumped individual rights for centuries. I still don't get what you mean by too much leeway.

What protects you on someone's property is not some Constitutional right but laws. There is a difference between a law and a Constitutional right.

You may have the right to protect yourself but when on someone else's property they can dictate how you do it if you want to stay on the property. They can make it a condition of being on that property that you carry Nerf guns.

Dolomite

[Guest bkelm18]

Guess we will have to disagree on this. I don't let the government infringe on my rights, I definitely won't let a private citizen do it. My rights don't change based on whatever piece of ground I stand on. People give private property owners too much leeway. Me carrying a handgun is my own business, no one else's. My defense of my own life falls to me, no one else. Thus, they have no say in whether I carry or not. Sorry, just because someone owns more stuff than me doesn't give them the right to tell me what to do.

If you're on their property they absolutely have the right to tell you what to do. If you disagree, you can explain it to the cops when they arrest your for trespassing. If you're on my property and I tell you to leave, you're gonna leave, no question about it. It can be voluntarily, or by police escort. The rights I have on my property trump your right to carry all day long.

Edited May 28, 2012 by bkelm18

[Guest ab28]

Still sounds like you believe your personal rights supercede those of others (e.g. private property owners' rights).

If a propterty owner disallows guns and you feel like your safety is in question, your LEGAL choices include 1) go somewhere else and 2) risk disarming yourself. Any other choice is breaking the law, but if you feel you are above the law...it's your risk.

No, I mean that my life is more important than their property, and how I choose to defend myself, and the manner, is dictated by my skill and training, not anything else. If I choose to carry pepper spray, or a knife, or a gun, or any or all of these, that is my call and my decision. What they want is irrelevant. I'm really not sure how to make this any more clear. I won't advertise I am carrying, and if someone asks, I'll say no, because it is none of their business. I generally won't go in posted areas though.

It's not that I feel I am above the law, moreso that I understand that how I choose to defend myself is my own choice, not some fatass pencil pushing judges'.

Just because someone owns a house or some land, does not make them better than me, or give them the right to tell me what to do. That is the same crap with the lords, ect, in middle ages England, the property owners were superior to the common man. It's pure garbage.

If you're on their property they absolutely have the right to tell you what to do. If you disagree, you can explain it to the cops when they arrest your for trespassing. If you're on my property and I tell you to leave, you're gonna leave, no question about it. It can be voluntarily, or by police escort. The rights I have on my property trump your right to carry all day long.

If anything, the rights are equal. I'm sick of arguing this to people. Owning land or a house does not give you the right to tell others what to do, it does not make you superior. Self defense is a basic human right, that is the personal decision of someone, because it is their life they have to protect. If anyone asked me to leave, I would just leave. If they did more than ask me to leave, such as tried to get aggressive or hurt me, I would defend myself with the appropriate amount of force. Self defense is a right that cannot be taken away.

Edited May 28, 2012 by ab28

[Dolomite_supafly]

No, I mean that my life is more important than their property, and how I choose to defend myself, and the manner, is dictated by my skill and training, not anything else. If I choose to carry pepper spray, or a knife, or a gun, or any or all of these, that is my call and my decision. What they want is irrelevant. I'm really not sure how to make this any more clear. I won't advertise I am carrying, and if someone asks, I'll say no, because it is none of their business. I generally won't go in posted areas though.

It's not that I feel I am above the law, moreso that I understand that how I choose to defend myself is my own choice, not some fatass pencil pushing judges'.

Just because someone owns a house or some land, does not make them better than me, or give them the right to tell me what to do. That is the same crap with the lords, ect, in middle ages England, the property owners were superior to the common man. It's pure garbage.

If anything, the rights are equal. I'm sick of arguing this to people. Owning land or a house does not give you the right to tell others what to do, it does not make you superior. Self defense is a basic human right, that is the personal decision of someone, because it is their life they have to protect. If anyone asked me to leave, I would just leave. If they did more than ask me to leave, such as tried to get aggressive or hurt me, I would defend myself with the appropriate amount of force. Self defense is a right that cannot be taken away.

If you refuse to leave physical force can and will be used to remove you from the property. And you would be the one going to jail not the property owner or his agent. Even if the property owner places his hands on you first you are sitll in the wrong and going to jail. If you resist with physical force you will also be charged with an additional crime depending on how you resist.

Property owner rights do trump any rights you think you may have as an individual on that property. You only have rights on my property if I allow you to have those rights. You have ZERO right to free speech on my property yet I can say anything I want. You also have ZERO right to carry a firearm on my property if I do don't want you to. Hell, you have no right to wear shoes on my property if I don't want you to. It is MY property and I can choose who enters and how they act.

On my property I do have more rights than you, that is a fact not some notion. Better has nothing to do with rights. I am not better than any other person but because I own property I have rights on my property that no one else has. Whatever misguided rights you think you have cannot be forced upon me in any place other than on property you own.

There is no way in the world you can force your will upon me on my property. And with that I accept you can force your will upon me on your property but no where else.

Dolomite

[Guest bkelm18]

If anything, the rights are equal. I'm sick of arguing this to people. Owning land or a house does not give you the right to tell others what to do, it does not make you superior. Self defense is a basic human right, that is the personal decision of someone, because it is their life they have to protect. If anyone asked me to leave, I would just leave. If they did more than ask me to leave, such as tried to get aggressive or hurt me, I would defend myself with the appropriate amount of force. Self defense is a right that cannot be taken away.

Yes, as a matter of fact it does make me superior on my property. If I don't want to you to carry on my property. You will not. If I ask you to leave. You will. You can leave voluntarily, in a police car, or in a body bag. If you are on my property and unwanted, I will be openly armed. If your hand touches your gun, one of us ain't going home. For me, I would be cleared under the appropriate self defense laws. For you, you would be charged with murder since you were in a place you had no legal right to be. I'm sorry, but property rights are a fact of law. Well established law. You can try and go against them, but you'll only end up in prison. Or dead.

Edited May 28, 2012 by bkelm18

[DaveTN]

Self defense is a basic human right, that is the personal decision of someone, because it is their life they have to protect.

You are absolutely right and that is why I make that argument instead of trying to argue the 2^nd amendment; that fight is over.

However…. Our legislators and Judges do not agree. You are going to follow the laws of the state you are in or they will take your privilege of carrying a firearm away from you.

It is a crime to carry a loaded gun in this state. The state can sell the privilege to a select few, but they can’t take away the rights of the property owner for something that they see as a crime for the average citizen. See how that works?

[Guest ab28]

If you refuse to leave physical force can and will be used to remove you from the property. And you would be the one going to jail not the property owner or his agent. Even if the property owner places his hands on you first you are sitll in the wrong and going to jail. If you resist with physical force you will also be charged with an additional crime depending on how you resist.

There is no way in the world you can force your will upon me on my property. And with that I accept you can force your will upon me on your property but no where else.

Dolomite

I meant if they ask me to leave, and I am going to do so, then they act in an aggressive manner for no reason. If someone wants me gone, I'll gladly leave, all they have to do is ask, that is as far as it goes, if they place their hands on me first for no reason, I will defend myself as necessary. If anyone attacks me anywhere, I will defend myself, any rational person would be. I don't accept that anyone can force their will on me, anywhere.

Yes, as a matter of fact it does make me superior on my property. If I don't want to you to carry on my property. You will not. If I ask you to leave. You will. You can leave voluntarily, in a police car, or in a body bag. If you are on my property and unwanted, I will be openly armed. If your hand touches your gun, one of us ain't going home. For me, I would be cleared under the appropriate self defense laws. For you, you would be charged with murder since you were in a place you had no legal right to be. I'm sorry, but property rights are a fact of law. Well established law. You can try and go against them, but you'll only end up in prison. Or dead.

I don't trespass, or break in anyone's home, so all of this is a moot point. If I was anywhere, and someone asks me to leave, I'll do so. I don't want to be somewhere I am not invited.

Edited May 28, 2012 by ab28

[alwaysonjohn]

Sorry Mike, but maybe I can clarify for you. You have ZERO Rights to be on private property. So if the manager does not want you there for ANY reason they can give you a trespass warning stating that you are never to come back, or atleast that's how it works in Clarksville. They don't have to justify their reason, they just have to clarify to you that you are notified. I don't have to "cite" you references on when this happened, since it happens all the time, just ask any police officer who is familiar with criminal trespass notices. Maybe some guys here have gotten one and wants to chime up?

[DaveS]

ab28...look at it this way....If your yard was "posted" NO TRESSPASSING, do I have a RIGHT to walk through your yard? If your land was "posted" NO HUNTING, Do I have the RIGHT to carry my deer rifle into YOUR woods and hunt?Does your pond "posted" NO FISHING give me no right to stand at your pond and fish. I can cite several posts of yours where you state you CARRY past gunbuster signs. I can't understand what you are so AFRAID of, that you seem to think you can bring your gun anywhere, any time you choose violating the rights of others.

No one should EVER have to be asked to leave a piece of property because we got busted carrying. You choose to walk past a sign, YOU LOSE!!

If I was that scared that I couldn't go anywhere without my .45, because I was in dire fear of my life, I believe I would do a little soul searching and try to figure who I ****** over somewhere along the way. If your that scared, MAN UP or STAY HOME!!!

Dave

[BigK]

I don't trespass, or break in anyone's home, so all of this is a moot point. If I was anywhere, and someone asks me to leave, I'll do so. I don't want to be somewhere I am not invited.

By being somewhere armed that is posted with a gun buster sign, you are unwanted and therefore trespassing. If you don't want to be somewhere you aren't invited, you don't go armed where it's prohibited. It's that simple.

Just because you weren't found to be carrying illegally doesn't mean you are welcome or innocent.

[Guest ab28]

If I was that scared that I couldn't go anywhere without my .45, because I was in dire fear of my life, I believe I would do a little soul searching and try to figure who I ****** over somewhere along the way. If your that scared, MAN UP or STAY HOME!!!

It is not fear, it is practicality. I keep a fire extinguisher in my car, not because I fear a fire, but just in case. I carry a gun for the same reason. I have enough hand to hand experience to deal with most attackers, and I carry a knife as well, a gun is just part of it. I carry a 9mm anyways, because in hollowpoints, all service calibers are going to have the same practical effect.

As for "man up", I hiked the entire Appalachian Trail, 2,179 miles, as well as serving a tour in Iraq, so I don't need to prove anything, thanks.

[Dave Nowlin]

I have a Carry Permit and have had one since shortly after they became legal in Tennessee. If I and others lose that right it will likely be because of attitudes like some of you have expressed in this thread. As has been previously mentioned and ignored, the Constitution protects you from government bodies misstreating you. The Constitution doesn't give you any rights on my property or property of any private individual. I can ask anyone I chose to leave my property. I can ask for just cause, unjust cause or no cause at all. I have that right because it is my property. If you refuse to leave I can have you arrested for trespassing. I can ask you to leave because you are carrying a weapon, because you aren't carrying a weapon, because I don't like your religion, your skin color, your politics or because I'm having a bad day. The facts are that we who carry weapons are in the minority. The anti-gun folks are also in the minority. The majority are those folks who take a neutral position. If we behave ourselves, carry responsibly, and don't go around with a chip on our shoulder about gun rights, hopefully we will be able to keep these rights. If we act like bullies with guns, we won't. If someone sees you are carrying and says something about it simply tell them you have a legally issued permit to carry a gun. That will totally defuse the situation 99% of the time. The other 1% keep your head about you and act responsibly. If a business owner asks you to leave because he doesn't want people carrying on his property, then leave quietly without making a scene. Remember there are always people watching and some of them would love the opportunity to brand all gun owners as hot headed troublemakers. Don't give them fuel for the fire they are trying to start. Let them come across as the troublemakers. Those of you who think you have a right to carry a weapon on the property of others without their permission need to wake up. What if that person were to show up at your house without being invited and walk in your livingroom and pick up the controller to your TV and change the channel and sit down and watch whatever he wants to? Would you have a right to order him to leave? Of course you do. But what about his rights? He wanted to watch that show. That's fine, let him go home and watch it at his house. The only way we will ever have a civil society is for us to respect the rights of others. Carrying a gun doesn't trump the rights of the other person unless he is trying to harm you.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Well put Dave Nowlin

Dolomite

[Timestepper]

Indeed, very well put!

[DaveS]

Very well said!

[Guest ab28]

Like I said, I've never been asked to leave a business, if I was, I'd leave promptly.

[jgradyc]

AB28, please read Dave Nowlin's post carefully. He is correct. Then, please consider these two points.

1. Your position to carry anywhere you please reflects harmfully on all of us with HCP permits. We should all attempt to be a role model for responsible HCP carry. I would urge you to do so as well. It only takes one negative event for the anti-gun lobby to whip their base into a frenzy. Do not be the person that gives them that leverage by posting statements that could be used to further their anti-gun agenda.

2. You are 32. I am 64, so trust me on this. Everything you put on the internet becomes part of a permanent record. If you are ever a defendant in a criminal case, the prosecution will find everything you have posted on Facebook,Twitter, and forums like this in an attempt to discredit you. They will find your posts here. When you make statements that can clearly be interpreted as ignoring the law when you disagree with it (and any objective measure, you have done that), then a jury could be swayed to believe that you believe you are above the law in other areas as well. Reread your own comments and imagine them being taken out of context and read to a jury. Everyone here is trying to give you some good advice. ...my advice? Take it.

If I were you, I'd have a change of heart. I'd post my new insight here. Then in a week or so, I'd ask the moderator to delete this thread.

[Dave Nowlin]

You may not have figured it out yet but some of us old folks are trying to give you sound advice. We have been around long enough to remember the days when you couldn't get a permit in Tennessee. Many people worked long and hard to gain you that right. Behave yourself and maybe your children will also be accorded that right. Act up and you will be messing in all our messkits.