Help Pickin a Bolt Gun

[MiddTennTaco]

I'd love to hear what yall think as far as picking a bolt gun. Let me start off by saying I've never had one before. I already have a pistol and an assault rifle. My rifle is a Colt 6940 which I have zeroed for 100 yards with an Aimpoint. I've had no problem hitting (100% of the time) a head sized steel target at 200 yards from a bench before. I can't see what I'm hitting of course, but I love hearing the metal sing to me. I'm sure 200 yards is nothing though.

More recently I've started to fancy after bolt action rifles. I really know nothing about any real long range shooting other than the fact that I would like to start learning. Fortunately, yall don't have to worry about that, I'm not asking to be taught (I'm not asking those questions yet, at least). I will do my own research and learn that way although I wouldn't mind any guidance if anybody so chooses to offer any.

Usage: 95% chance it will only for target shooting at the Woodbury range (I believe it goes out to 400 yards or something?)

5% chance I might take up hunting some day

Price range: $300-$500 (maybe a little more if I have to buy a separate scope - I know its important)

Accuracy Expectations: You tell me

Most importantly - as a STARTING rifle, what would give me the most bang for my buck? Remember... Accuracy.

You might cringe when I say this but I did see a Rem 700 (not 770) at Walmart (M'boro) already scoped for I think about or less than $400. I don't recall what caliber, but I'm pretty sure it was .243 or .270. SPS or something? I would have to go back and see. On the other hand, I've been to Dicks before and I recall them having a lot of bolt actions for sale but I wasn't interested in them at the time. I would have to check up on them, too.

I have heard that Savage offers some good rifles that are even better for the money than a Remington 700. I'm kind of wary of going too cheap though. Should I stay away from their AXIS series and look towards the Stevens models? And what's the deal with this "Accu-trigger" I keep reading about? Is it really any good? To me it sounds like an extremely light trigger that is so light that they put a Glock trigger safety on it, lol.

Anyway, opinions will be greatly appreciated. Not really interested in looking at used bolt guns at this time but heck, give me reasons to think otherwise.

[broylz]

i would suggest saving for a bit better budget. seeing as you have a colt carbine with an aimpoint says that you have some sort of quality standard. i would suggest nothing less than a remington 700 or a savage 10 or 110. i would also suggest a varmint contour barrel instead of the sporter hunting lighter contour. i started with a remington 700 SPS-Varmint but replaced the stock with a HS precision 5R take-off stock. second rifle was a remington 700 5R milspec, and last was my favorite, a Remington 700 AAC-SD all in .308.

i personally prefer the varmint contour barrel found on all three of the ones i listed. the differences are barrel length and twist rate. the SPS was a 1:12 which is great for bullets up to 168gr typically, the 5R had 1:11.2 which is the army standard for 175gr match kings. the last one, the AAC-SD was a 1:10 twist which is what the marine corps use and is good for heavier bullets up to the 220gr range.

within your 400 yard range, a .223 bolt gun would be cheaper to shoot and still good at that range but then again so would your Colt carbine with a better optic. i prefer the extra power of the .308 as well as my familiarity with it from military experience and its know data from all of the people who shoot it for precision and load data available. the optimal barrel length needed is around 20", as typically argued, but the military uses a 24" and most hunting or varmint rifles will have a 26" barrel.

all of that said, the more important part of precision long range shooting is the optics and proper solid mounts. i have had a couple of cheaper Millet scopes and they are decent entry level optics. Vortex Viper PST is what i would recommend for mid range and then it just goes up from there.

you can get a remington SPS-Varmint rifle for 550 or so but you will probably want to swap the stock fairly soon. a SPS-Tactical or AAC-SD will run in the 650-750 range. top it with Weaver base and rings and a Millett TRS-1 scope for around 400 or step up to the Vortex Viper PST for 600-750 depending on magnification.

edited to add, as far as accuracy expectations, i am no expert but i had the SPS-V doing about 1.25-1.5" with 168gr reloads with the factory stock. it got around an 1-1.25 with the 5R stock. the 5R milspec got in the .5-.75 range with 175gr federal gold medal match ammo. my AAC-SD never got match ammo but did put some 165gr hornady SST hunting ammo through it and got right at 1" every single time.

my SPS-V had a SWFA super sniper fixed 10x scope on it with walmart cheap 2 piece scope base and Burris XTR rings.

the 5R initially had a cheap BSA 4-16x scope on it that was garbage and wouldnt hold zero or adjust properly. i replaced it with a Millett TRS-1.

the AAC-SD had a weaver 20moa canted base and weaver tactical rings on it and the same Millett TRS-1. i shot a buddy's rifle with the PST scope and loved it but had to sell my rifle before i could save up any cash for the new scope.

if i were doing another build, i would get the AAC-SD again, swap the scope for a HS Precision 5R or 700P take-off stock, Seekins precision 20moa base and rings, Viper PST 2.5-10 scope and a CDI precision detachable magazine. unlimited budget would have the same with the scope going to a Vortex Razor HD 5-20x scope.

Edited May 17, 2012 by broylz

[BJB]

WOW Broylz loaded you up with info.I will agree with the Savage line and going with a model 10. Remington makes a great gun but why spend 2-300$ more when you can have the same thing with Savage. After market parts are available to make it what you want it. I would also go with a 243cal or 22-250. Here is a Pick of my Savage I just finished

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/47314-finally-got-it-together/

[Tempest455]

Ditto on above.

On that Budget a Savage Axis. With a decent enough cheap scope and bipod, you could probably spend a total of $500-550 (roughly) and be able to shoot out to 300 pretty accurately. Farther than that and you are going to need a better scope.

[DaveTN]

I don’t have any experience with Savage, but I have a Remington 700 VLS in 308 with a Leupold 6.5-20X40 VX III. 308 is expensive to shoot, so I have been looking for a heavy barrel .223 for cheap trigger time.

Every once in a while Dicks runs a special on a Remington 700 heavy barrel for $449. It’s a plastic camo stock and comes with a cheap scope, but it looks like the same action/heavy barrel used in the higher dollar guns. It comes in several calibers but .223 & .308 were on the list.

A new comer to the market is the Mossberg MVP. It is a bolt action with a heavy fluted barrel and it uses standard AR magazines. I haven’t seen one except on the net yet, but as soon as my dealer gets one, I’ll have one. They are $499 or $590 with a scope and bipod. I hope to find just the rifle because I’ll want to put my own scope on it.

If you want to shoot it a lot I would stay with .223 for a small caliber (400 yards) or .308 for a large caliber (1000 yards). You can find reasonable deals on both those calibers in quantity. Calibers like .243 and .270 I doubt you will find deals on.

The scope and mounts are as import as the rifle. Plan on spending at least $200-300 for a starter scope. Get a high quality mounting system and you won’t have to change it when you change scopes as you move up. I prefer Leupold; you can start with a VX1 3X9X40 from Wal-Mart for $200. As you get into bench rest shooting you can try different scopes and decided for yourself who makes the best scopes.

[peejman]

What they said. Savage or Remington, heavy barrel/varmit. Plan to spend as much or more on optics as the rifle. If it gets squirrely beyond a certain range, it's probably not the rifle, it's probably the optics.

If your intent is only target shooting, a small and fast caliber has some advantages (.223, .243, .22-250, etc.). Much beyond 400 yds you'd probably be happier with something bigger, .308 being the most common.

[Jonnin]

If you want really cheap, consider a military surplus rifle. If you choose carefully, you can get a really accurate gun for $200 or so. Also, the cut up versions of the same (people made deer rifles from them after wwII) are often excellent shooters. My mauser will hold its own with anything you can get for $500 or less and is almost identical to a 308 ballistically.

If I wanted along range target gun, I would get a 243 for the caliber if I could. The milsurp stuff does not come in this caliber, but if you buy new, it is an excellent choice. Its a necked down 308, so it moves a little faster, shoots a little flatter. It is a commonly found, fairly inexpensive round. I would look at a used gun, to cut the price down, and divide my funds between the rifle and scope if you plan to get a scope. Try a good savage, perhaps? There are many, many, many used deer rifles on the market for not too much money. Most have been rough treated in the woods but shot hardly at all. You could get an amazing shooter for a low price this way.

[I_Like_Pie]

Get one of the good budget rifles...the Savage at under $400 is a good start. Get a decent optic and solid mount for $250 or so. Get a decent rest for under $100.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST...

Get a lee anniversary kit and reload for that gun and whatever cartridge you pick....You will never have a full understanding of the gun until you do this. In my opinion .243 is one of the best cartridges made for anything under 600 yards of shooting....practically anything in other words and can not be matched in versatility if you are a reloader. If you want one that will do it all...it is my pick.

[Guest Averhoeven]

I have heard really good things about the new Ruger American Rifle as well. Comes with ZERO aiming assistance (no iron sights or scope), so despite the fact that you can find it for like $350 online, you're immediately out the cost of an otpic as well.

[mikegideon]

If you are going to shoot targets, there's one good reason not to get a .243. It's a barrel burner. I love the caliber for some stuff, and own one with a sporter barrel. 22-250 is the same deal. Flat doesn't matter. Accuracy does.

You can shoot 600 yards all day long with a .223. You just need to shoot heavier match bullets. Even with .223, you'll have to roll your own if you want good accuracy without going broke. Heavy barrel is a must. Make sure the twist rate is at least 1:8 so you can shoot the longer match bullets.

[mikegideon]

Cheap scope ($150)...

I polished some 1" dots off a steel target at 400 yards with this scope. Also works well at 600. Shooting 77 grain Matchkings in Black Hills factory loads and some hand loads.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/962234/bsa-tactical-mil-dot-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-6-24x-44mm-side-focus-glass-etched-mil-dot-reticle-matte

[gjohnsoniv]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet but Savage makes a very good rifle. Easier to service and work on versus the Remmy 700. Don't think you could go wrong with a 700 though, but I'm a Remington guy .

Edited May 17, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[TnShooter83]

I recommend a Savage or a Remington as they are known for accuracy out of the box.

Plus there are many after market parts and barrels for both. The Savage barrel can pretty much be replaced at home if you have the right tools, So if you decide to change caliber or just upgrade the barrel that helps.

For the price and for it being a "starter" rifle the Savage seems fit the bill a little better as it is "cheaper".

[I_Like_Pie]

If you are going to shoot targets, there's one good reason not to get a .243. It's a barrel burner.

What is this.....I don't even!?!?

I am sure if you load up some 60 grain bullets at 4000 fps it could cause some problems. But in the standard loadings it is no different than any other 308 based chambering made...period.

If you loaded up some 36 grain pills really hot in the .223 it would be the same story.

EDIT - In other words it is no reason to be swayed from a great chambering.

Edited May 17, 2012 by I_Like_Pie

[mikegideon]

What is this.....I don't even!?!?

I am sure if you load up some 60 grain bullets at 4000 fps it could cause some problems. But in the standard loadings it is no different than any other 308 based chambering made...period.

If you loaded up some 36 grain pills really hot in the .223 it would be the same story.

EDIT - In other words it is no reason to be swayed from a great chambering.

Just repeating what the long range boys say. I've been looking for a caliber to build, and got pushed away from .243. Like I said... I own one.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3784392.0

Edited May 17, 2012 by mikegideon

[TnShooter83]

Typically any time you use more powder and a smaller hole (bore) it results in faster barrel throat erosion.

One way to help minimize the erosion is by letting the barrel cool between shots and using a barrel with steel that is more resistant to heat. Which is why alot of bench and varmint guns use stainless barrels.

The speed at which the bullet travels out of the barrel has little to do with erosion or wearing out the barrel.

Speed and heat come from the powder and that is pretty much the #1 reason barrels "wear out"

All you have to remember is this: Small bores and big cases "usually" mean shorter barrel life.

Edited May 17, 2012 by TnShooter83

[mikegideon]

And, barrel life is a moving target. If you're shooting for sub .5 MOA performance, it's a LOT shorter than shooting most animals. Agreed, it's all about throat erosion. I have a buddy that was shooting a 22-250 in a bench style rifle. He commented about having to reduce his seating depth to keep his bullets jammed. He was amazed how fast it was moving. Now, he's shooting a 6 BR.

[MiddTennTaco]

Wow I definitely wasn't expecting so many responses. Thank you all.

Just to clarify on some things - Broylz, as much as I appreciated your dissertation - yes, I definitely DO want a sub $500 gun. The Colt 6940 was my first gun and I haven't wanted to get rid of it. I had a lot of money at the time and it was an approved weapon on the departments list. Now I'm just a poor college student, haha!

I have looked at a lot of surplus rifles but I'd really like something that will happily take a scope.

Right now I'm hoping to buy something locally. I am definitely leaning towards a Savage as everyone I've ever asked says it is a lot better for the money. That being said, it will help me afford better optics. I still need to head down to Walmart sometime and see what they have. I know I've seen either a Nikon or Burris scope or both at Walmart for something like $150. It can't be too bad.

Today I DID go and see a Ruger American rifle and found it for $379. They had it in .270 and 30-06. To me it just doesn't seem like it has been proven yet and I haven't heard much about it. I've heard that it's "good" and that's about it.

Come to think of it, I suppose I really should ask what caliber would be recommended. I don't plan on reloading but who knows, maybe I'll get brave sometime in the future. Walmart's always had a decent selection of ammo at the best prices. I'm thinking .308 is the best all around choice. I heard it is more accurate than 30-06 and it is a lot more common than .243, .270, .300, etc - at least from my understanding. Any thoughts on this?

Right now it's down to:

Remington 700 rifle w/ or w/o scope package that walmart carries

Savage besides their bottom line AXIS series ( I think I may have to go look at Dicks)

Ruger All-American

[mikegideon]

I have bolt guns in .243 and .270. Can't beat a .308. With that said, I punch paper with a .223. I shoot too many rounds to put up with the recoil of the bigger calibers. Besides, a .223 rocks out to 600 yards in the right gun.

[TnShooter83]

I recommend a .308 since you have just about any bullet type and weight.

That way you can target shoot and hunt. Hunt anything from Varmint to Big Game.

It's also cheaper than 30-06 as far as FMJ target rounds.

As far as rifle choice I'd say the Remington will hold a better resell value.

The Ruger is to new for me to buy at this point when the Savage has proven itself.

I personally own three Ruger M77/MKII and am not afraid to say the Savage is just as good

and in some cases better than the higher priced Ruger. I just like Ruger rifles.

[mikegideon]

Yep. A .223 is light for hunting most stuff.

[Jonnin]

308 is uber common: its a nato round (well, the nearly identical civ version of it) and nearly every country makes ammo for it. You can get surplus ammo cheap. Make sure you gun is rated for both the military and 308 rounds (nato calls it 7.62 X 51 mm).

All the 7-8 mm or 30-32 caliber guns perform very, very well in rifles. The 30-06 was designed in, well, 1906. Before that, the mosin and mauser rounds date back to the early 1890s. The 303 british is quite aged as well. All these rounds can perform as well as the 308 and there are a good 30, maybe even 50 cartridges in the family. In the right guns, with optics and all, they can all hit a man at 1k yards easily. But if you do not reload, antique calibers that cost $2 per shot are not a good idea --- stick to the 308 if you want this type of caliber. The 308 has a great reputation but its just the latest version of the same old thing... do not buy into it being "more accurate". I will put my 7.65 mauser up against any $500 or less bolt action any day of the week. The 30-06 would not be a go-to hunting caliber if it were not accurate and powerful --- more than 100 years later.

The 7-8 mm family are mostly shoulder thumpers in a bolt gun. A 308 is tamed in an AR or modern military gun, but in a bolt gun I cannot fire more than 20 or so shots without a bruised shoulder. They are not suitable for extended target practice sessions of 100+ rounds a day.

270 --- I have not see a lot of this caliber for sale in either guns or ammo. I would avoid it if that is an issue.

243 ---- very popular, not hard to find guns or ammo.

the 700 and savage are proven guns.

I strongly advise handloading. In the long run, it saves you money, lets you shoot higher quality ammo that is tailored to your rifle, and lets you download to reduce recoil.

[mikegideon]

A .270 Win is an old and common caliber too. Necked down 30-06. It has more snort than a .243. and more recoil too.

[Jonnin]

A .270 Win is an old and common caliber too. Necked down 30-06. It has more snort than a .243. and more recoil too.

cool, didnt know its history. I have something called a 25-06 that I rarely see ammo for too. I have not shot that one, finnbear safe queen.

[TnShooter83]

cool, didnt know its history. I have something called a 25-06 that I rarely see ammo for too. I have not shot that one, finnbear safe queen.

The 25-06 is a SWEET round with a very flat trajectory and is still consider to be one of the best all time varmint/big game combo guns. It recoils less than the 30-06 and the .270, the down side is it cost more and you'd be better of handloading if you plan to shoot it a lot. I will one day own a Ruger All-Weather in 25-06 but I've got other thing on my list before I get one. Like the SR1911.

I think you REALLY need to shoot that rifle. You just don't know what you are missing.

Edited May 18, 2012 by TnShooter83