Interesting conversation with a LEO tonight

[Punisher84]

We have this thing called "the law" in this country. I am obligated to obey it. So are you. The law calls for me to present my permit on request. That's it.

As for great cops and stupid permit holders, there is no question. The vast majority of cops are decent guys doing their jobs. But all too often there is some guy out there who feels like the citizenry needs to feel the weight of his badge every now and then, and he likes inflicting his power on people he can. And that's what I object to.

The first part is true, but I don't fully understand how that's relevant. The law is not in debate. The debate (on my end) is centered on why you would not want to put an officer at ease if they asked for your permit. If you don't want to answer other questions then that is your right, it may not always be the best road to take, but it is your right assuredly.

I agree there are cops who love to flaunt their power and display authority. The problem is looking at an entire group of people, because of narrow views or looking at the 10% that show up on the news or on the wrong side of the courtroom.

The problem I find with alot of permit holders is the sense of entitlement and the God complex alot of them get. I think everyone should be able to defend themselves, but the attitude of " I have a gun. I took 3 eight hour shooting classes. I wear a 5.11 vest! I am able to take care of myself better than any stupid ole' 5 minute response time cop!" is sad. As Tower put it, it's an us against them attitude and it's not helping anyone. I can see it's something we won't agree on because I don't even agree with some of my co-workers about it. Even in the gun world you have anti and pro.

[towerclimber37]

That's pretty much hitting the nail on the head. I think LEOs fall into 2 categories those who are and those who wish they were. To put it simply you wear the uniform, don't let the uniform wear you. LEOs that are always ready to bust heads and make big issues out of little things don't last long usually, but good cops who love the job and actually remember what protect and serve means just wanna go home at the end of shift.

The problem is when an unknown person intentionally or accidentally introduces an unverified weapon into a situation, the situation chages drastically.

Unfortunately, when those bad leos want to bust YOUR head, the situation becomes the most important one of your life. It doesn't matter how long they'll be on the force, they're trying to bash you NOW. I'm all for civil responsibility but I'll tell you this now, in this respect, I agree with Rabbi. I'm not going to give someone with the ability to take away my freedom, any help in doing just that. First impressions are important, police officers have to make a LOT of good first impressions. If I'm speeding, I don't mind a ticket if I'm caught. If I get pulled over because they want to know what I'm doing in a neighborhood or because they want to know my business..chances are they're going to meet with very minimal information and I'm not going to be as helpful. why? because it's none of their business what I'm doing as long as I'm not breaking the law.

and heaven forbid a law enforcement officer tell me to "go home" after an encounter. if he tries to enforce that illegal order, I will become uncooperative and pretty quickly call my lawyer because more than likely I'm going to jail for telling that officer to fold his hitler badge in a little triangle and shove it up his bum so that all the points touch.

[Fallguy]

I have worked as LEO, I currently have a brother and sister-in-law that are LEOs.

Unless you have some reasonable suspicion a person has committed a crime they don't have to even acknowledge your (LEOs) presence as far as that goes. If a LEO detains someone (Terry Stop) there are certain rules that come into place. Some states have "Stop and Identify" laws, SCOTUS has ruled these legal, but TN does not have such a law.

LEOs need to know that they are legally armed citizens in this state, simply seeing someone armed does not mean they are breaking the law. However the law allows a LEO to demand to see a HCP, so fine. So that is what they should do, not throw you to the ground and cuff you.

I know being a LEO is a dangerous job, but AFAIK all LEOs have voluntarily chose to do the job and accepted the risk. Do they need to be cautious? Yes. But they do not need to violate the law or expect a citizen to give up their rights for the LEO's benefit? No. It is not a matter of being macho it is a matter of not giving up a right.....give up one and others will follow.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Fallguy

[Guest canynracer]

geeze...LEOs are just doing their job...what the hell does it matter, just hand them the permit at the same time you hand your license, you dont have to say a word, most will put 2 and 2 together and respect the fact that you told them...

If nothing else, at least respect the fact that they are human beings doing a job that you wont, that job is a very important one and a necessity...they are on our side.

if you are an ass, they will be an ass....just like if I was an ass to you, you would be one back...

[molonlabetn]

Make sure to show them your fishing license, too, if there's a rod&reel in your vehicle...

[Fallguy]

Should I show them my EMT license even if I'm not in the ambulance?

[Guest canynracer]

yep...and your HCP badge.

heheheh

[Punisher84]

LEOs need to know that they are legally armed citizens in this state, simply seeing someone armed does not mean they are breaking the law. However the law allows a LEO to demand to see a HCP, so fine. So that is what they should do, not throw you to the ground and cuff you.

I know being a LEO is a dangerous job, but AFAIK all LEOs have voluntarily chose to do the job and accepted the risk. Do they need to be cautious? Yes. But they do not need to violate the law or expect a citizen to give up their rights for the LEO benefit. It is not a matter of being macho it is a matter of not giving up a right.....give up one and others will follow.

I think all LEOs at least know there are legally armed civilians in the state and others and no one is accusing them of breaking the law. Nor did I ever advocate or suggest throwing someone to the ground and cuffing them. That is a prejudiced statement.

All LEOs are voluntary. I'm reserve. Voluntary as it gets, doing it for free. I expect no one to give up their rights, but I expect to be complied with. If you don't want to offer the info voluntarily fine, but if I pull you over for speeding and run your license and it pops back you have a permit I'm not gonna worry to much about it if I see a gun, but if I don't know you have a permit and ask and you say no and you have one. We're probably going to be having a conversation at the rear of your vehicle for a moment. Then that person can go on a forum and talk about how this dick cop pulled them over and DEMANDED to see their gun and infringed all up in dey rights. Then I'll go home or to the range and thank God that it was just a civilian who was carrying and it all worked out and not someone who would have shot me.

[The Rabbi]

geeze...LEOs are just doing their job...what the hell does it matter, just hand them the permit at the same time you hand your license, you dont have to say a word, most will put 2 and 2 together and respect the fact that you told them...

If nothing else, at least respect the fact that they are human beings doing a job that you wont, that job is a very important one and a necessity...they are on our side.

if you are an ass, they will be an ass....just like if I was an ass to you, you would be one back...

And whaty does it matter if they want to search you and your vehicle? You dont have anything to hide, right? SO what's the big deal?

[The Rabbi]

The first part is true, but I don't fully understand how that's relevant. The law is not in debate. The debate (on my end) is centered on why you would not want to put an officer at ease if they asked for your permit. If you don't want to answer other questions then that is your right, it may not always be the best road to take, but it is your right assuredly.

I dont understand why you think cops should have the right to handcuff honest citizens because they look at them crossways. I understand LEOs need to feel secure but handcuffing and frisking people for an out of date tag seems a little extreme to me.

[Fallguy]

I think all LEOs at least know there are legally armed civilians in the state and others and no one is accusing them of breaking the law. Nor did I ever advocate or suggest throwing someone to the ground and cuffing them. That is a prejudiced statement.

All LEOs are voluntary. I'm reserve. Voluntary as it gets, doing it for free. I expect no one to give up their rights, but I expect to be complied with. If you don't want to offer the info voluntarily fine, but if I pull you over for speeding and run your license and it pops back you have a permit I'm not gonna worry to much about it if I see a gun, but if I don't know you have a permit and ask and you say no and you have one. We're probably going to be having a conversation at the rear of your vehicle for a moment. Then that person can go on a forum and talk about how this dick cop pulled them over and DEMANDED to see their gun and infringed all up in dey rights. Then I'll go home or to the range and thank God that it was just a civilian who was carrying and it all worked out and not someone who would have shot me.

Punisher it sounds like you have an overall reasonable view. I did the reserve thing before and after working as one as well.

Let me say, I will comply with all legal request. I will not lie, if I asked if I have a permit I will immediately produce it. Personally I will not go out of my way to give the officer a hard time. In general his attitude will determine mine.

You are right there are many citizens that go on forums and run down the cops and how they got one over on them. But there are LEO forums where they talk about citizens in roughly the same way.

I think each side just wants to tip the scale a little more their way than the other....lol

[Guest canynracer]

its not the out of date tags, its the gun

and if they feel the need to search my car, I let them, they find nothing, I go home....

OOORRRR, they can make my life miserable, I can refuse the search, and refuse to talk to them, not say a word cause they did not specifically ask to SEE my permit....but refuse to talk when they say "you have a permit for that?" raise their suspicion and they will hold me there until a dog walks around my car and flinches, then they have probable cause and I sit their for even LONGER....probably in cuffs...

pulled over for out of date tags, hand driver license, HCP, get ticket, go home...20 min TOPS....

[Guest canynracer]

Punisher it sounds like you have an overall reasonable view. I did the reserve thing before and after working as one as well.

Let me say, I will comply with all legal request. I will not lie, if I asked if I have a permit I will immediately produce it. Personally I will not go out of my way to give the officer a hard time. In general his attitude will determine mine.

You are right there are many citizens that go on forums and run down the cops and how they got one over on them. But there are LEO forums where they talk about citizens in roughly the same way.

I think each side just wants to tip the scale a little more their way than the other....lol

yep, and ours will determine thiers

[Fallguy]

Not trying to start anything canynracer, but if they came and knocked on your door, would you just let them in the house without a warrant as well?

If you want to let them search your vehicle for no reason, then that is your choice, if you don't, then that is your choice as well. It doesn't mean that all bad things will happen.

I was riding with my brother one night. He got a call about a couple of ladies sitting in car at an apartment complex after being told to leave by the manager. He talked with them some...asked a few times about searching the car, they refused, he had a suspicion but no probable cause to hold them or search the car so he let them leave.

[molonlabetn]

...or, get pulled over for out of date tags, no mention of weapons is ever made, and we both go home having taken care of the relevant business without any complications.

The bottom line is, if they don't bring it up, I have no reason to.

[Guest canynracer]

Not trying to start anything canynracer, but if they came and knocked on your door, would you just let them in the house without a warrant as well?

If you want to let them search your vehicle for no reason, then that is your choice, if you don't, then that is your choice as well. It doesn't mean that all bad things will happen.

I was riding with my brother one night. He got a call about a couple of ladies sitting in car at an apartment complex after being told to leave by the manager. He talked with them some...asked a few times about searching the car, they refused, he had a suspicion but no probable cause to hold them or search the car so he let them leave.

Searching my house and handing an HCP are different, lets not go with "if you start showing your HCP they will go further" argument you all are trying to go to...this has nothing to do with that. It is about respecting the fact that you ARE armed, and not making a scene to prove your point that you know more than them about the law...we bash LEOs way too much, but yet nobody wants to help make things a little easier for both parties involved.

My HCP is under my driver license, if I am already getting my DL out, why not grab both to save time? If I am not carrying, I would not hand it to them, but they would still see it.

[MrNobody]

...or, get pulled over for out of date tags, no mention of weapons is ever made, and we both go home having taken care of the relevant business without any complications.

The bottom line is, if they don't bring it up, I have no reason to.

I agree 100% with this, I've been pulled over two times since I've had my HCP and my handgun or my permit has never come up. I's concealed for a reason, to protect me and not scare anyone else.

[Fallguy]

Searching my house and handing an HCP are different, lets not go with "if you start showing your HCP they will go further" argument you all are trying to go to...this has nothing to do with that. It is about respecting the fact that you ARE armed, and not making a scene to prove your point that you know more than them about the law...we bash LEOs way too much, but yet nobody wants to help make things a little easier for both parties involved.

My HCP is under my driver license, if I am already getting my DL out, why not grab both to save time? If I am not carrying, I would not hand it to them, but they would still see it.

I really wasn't talking about handing over your HCP with your DL. You said if they asked to search your car that you would let them. I was just curious how much you would let them do.

[towerclimber37]

I think all LEOs at least know there are legally armed civilians in the state and others and no one is accusing them of breaking the law. Nor did I ever advocate or suggest throwing someone to the ground and cuffing them. That is a prejudiced statement.

All LEOs are voluntary. I'm reserve. Voluntary as it gets, doing it for free. I expect no one to give up their rights, but I expect to be complied with. If you don't want to offer the info voluntarily fine, but if I pull you over for speeding and run your license and it pops back you have a permit I'm not gonna worry to much about it if I see a gun, but if I don't know you have a permit and ask and you say no and you have one. We're probably going to be having a conversation at the rear of your vehicle for a moment. Then that person can go on a forum and talk about how this dick cop pulled them over and DEMANDED to see their gun and infringed all up in dey rights. Then I'll go home or to the range and thank God that it was just a civilian who was carrying and it all worked out and not someone who would have shot me.

now THIS I don't agree with.

firstly, I usually carry about 6-8 pistols in my vehicle when I travel since I'm carrying all my range weapons with me. they're in my range box. if the simple possession of a firearm in the vehicle gets handcuffs on me, even though a run of my license says I have no warrants, no outstanding tickets and no prior history, THEN I'm going to say you're a dick and I'm going to become VERY uncooperative.

if you see a rifle case in the back of my vehicle and ask to search it, I'm going to say no. you're welcome to impound my vehicle if you think you're going to find something illegal but my FIRST request is going to be that your patrol supervisor be on the scene before we continue with any sort of business.

the mere presence of a firearm in the vehicle of a law abiding citizen does NOT constitute a crime, in my opinion.

plus, when police officers search a vehicle, the take everything out and then tell YOU to put it back. I had my vehicle searched once. I told the officer that he took it out, he needs to put it back. he acted as if it was above him and said if I wanted my things back in my vehicle, I'd be the one to put them back.

Since then, I say forget em...you want to search my vehicle, you'll have to do it the hard way.

[Guest slothful1]

... but if I don't know you have a permit and ask and you say no and you have one. We're probably going to be having a conversation at the rear of your vehicle for a moment.

Strawman.

[The Rabbi]

its not the out of date tags, its the gun

and if they feel the need to search my car, I let them, they find nothing, I go home....

OOORRRR, they can make my life miserable, I can refuse the search, and refuse to talk to them, not say a word cause they did not specifically ask to SEE my permit....but refuse to talk when they say "you have a permit for that?" raise their suspicion and they will hold me there until a dog walks around my car and flinches, then they have probable cause and I sit their for even LONGER....probably in cuffs...

pulled over for out of date tags, hand driver license, HCP, get ticket, go home...20 min TOPS....

My view is that part of living in a democratic society is that we have to defend our rights because there are tons of people out there wanting to take them, all for a good purpose. Convenience and safety are among those purposes cited.

Yeah, you can bend over to Officer Friendly and let him search your vehicle, your house, or your wife. Makes life easier for everyone and you've got nothing to hide.

Except this is exactly how civil rights disappear in a society. People become complacent and pretty soon the police call the shots. That's a police state.

[Guest canynracer]

I really wasn't talking about handing over your HCP with your DL. You said if they asked to search your car that you would let them. I was just curious how much you would let them do.

I know you werent... but the scenario is based around being pulled over...

There are two ways to handle it, if you choose not to tell the officer as a courtesy, and they see your gun, they MAY think you have something to hide, so they might ask the question, "Do you have a permit?" if the answer is yes, they will ask to see it. OK no prob...

I just choose to cut it off quicker, hand them both, no questions...

but the argument here is that if the officer sees your gun and asks "Do you have a permit?" and you sit there stone silent because of the formality that they did not say "Let me see your permit" Sitting there silent CAN be mistaken for having something to hide, or argumentative, attitude, whatever, so they will react accordingly.

Edited May 7, 2008 by canynracer

[Guest canynracer]

My view is that part of living in a democratic society is that we have to defend our rights because there are tons of people out there wanting to take them, all for a good purpose. Convenience and safety are among those purposes cited.

Yeah, you can bend over to Officer Friendly and let him search your vehicle, your house, or your wife. Makes life easier for everyone and you've got nothing to hide.

Except this is exactly how civil rights disappear in a society. People become complacent and pretty soon the police call the shots. That's a police state.

I understand what you are saying, and I mostly agree...but I cant say that I agree with the fact that I willingly handed my HCP to an officer without being ask infringes on my rights....the fact that you have to HAVE a permit does....

[Mike.357]

my FIRST request is going to be that your patrol supervisor be on the scene

Does a patrol officer have to comply with this request?

As for the rest of everything,

Honestly I see both sides of the story here. I do not want my rights trampled on either. But simply informing the cop I have a valid permit and am armed is not the same as allowing a search of the vehicle or home without a warrant.

Would you comply at a DUI checkpoint where they pull over every fifth car? Or would you simply ignore this request as they have no valid reason or suspicion that you are operating a vehicle while drunk or high on drugs?

Dang, if my simple gesture of telling a cop can make a situation easier I am going to do it. From what I read, most of the time it seems you get let go with a warning.

That and I figure the guy who taught my class knows what he is talking about.

But if they want my fishing license because I have a pole in the truck they are out of luck. I don't have one. But they can see my PADI card if it matters.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Mike.357

[Fallguy]

...but the argument here is that if the officer sees your gun and asks "Do you have a permit?" and you sit there stone silent because of the formality that they did not say "Let me see your permit" Sitting there silent CAN be mistaken for having something to hide, or argumentative, attitude, whatever, so they will react accordingly.

I don't think that has been the argument. Rabbi said if asked he would show a LEO his permit, just that he wouldn't volunteer it up front. I do not think you can legally just be quite when it comes to answering/showin your HCP. The law clearly says it must be shown upon demand of a LEO.