Interesting conversation with a LEO tonight

[The Rabbi]

This is exactly why the idea of having a 'permit' system is wrong... it gives credence to the ridiculous idea that someone with a gun should be assumed a criminal unless 'authorized'.

Punisher, the mentality which you are outlining is exactly why such things become 'us vs. them'... by LEOs insisting on creating an issue over the simple presence of a firearm that is not their own, before even knowing that a crime is committed... as if we need their blessing to do so! As it is, the simple question "Do you have a permit?" would quickly determine whether any further action is called for, and the police are responsible for asking that question. The only time forceful reaction to the sight of a firearm is relevant is if you are being threatened with it, and that goes for everybody.

I think that pretty well answered the question.

Yes, the idea that a private citizen with a holstered gun in a car is a threat ipso facto is scary. The idea that Punisher has that such a citizen is more likely to drive off than someone without a gun is simply ludicrous.

MolonLabetn nails it precisely: officer sees a gun, officer asks for permit, citizen produces permit. End of problem.

[The Rabbi]

So you are scared of the mentality that Punisher is expressing or think it's what causes the us vs them issues, but you are entering into the situation with the mentality that the leo is just wanting an excuse to lock you up and take away your rights. Sounds like the same thing to me, just in the opposite direction.

I dont understand this equivalence argument. The LEO has the power to arrest me basically for nothing. Some have exercised exactly that power in the past, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. The LEO has far greater power than the private citizen at that moment. That someone in such a position would think it reasonable/possible/likely that the mere presence of a holstered weapon indicates a dangerous criminal is deeply disturbing and in no way off-sets the LEO's (legitimate) concerns about his own safety.

[Guest canynracer]

LOL....I give up...

[Guest db99wj]

Has anyone ever seen World's Deadliest Police Chases? Dang.

Really, I have been pulled over....well a few times, once while I have had my permit and armed, I have never had a "bad" encounter. If I was cop, and I am not, nor did I play one on TV, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, but if I pull you over, I don't know you have a permit or a gun or a chainsaw or a beer or a young jewish girl for sale or what.....I am going to be cautious, then If you are being a jerk or not answering questions, then I am going to become suspicious.

When I got pulled over last year, I had my dl and my permit ready, hands on the steering wheel, I had only had my permit for about 2 weeks, so I was nervous as hell anyway. I told him that I have a permit and I am armed. He either asked where or said OK (can't remember, I posted about this a long time ago but this the basic rundown), then went back to his car. He came back with my dl, permit and a fancy yellow ticket. I told him that I had just got my permit, and what he preferred from permit holders. He said you did just fine, and that he appreciated me telling him on the front end.

Just to let you know the area, this was on Sam Cooper between Highland and Hollywood, in front of the church they just built. For those that are not familiar, this is not a good area, there was a "sniper" shooting at cars a couple of years ago, known for it's speed traps.

I also have gone through a DUI check point, I gave him my license, he took it, checked my car tag, looked at me and my family, said have a safe night.

So in summary, I may or may not give my permit/inform. Depends on the situation. I would rather have a good conversation and of course, if the good conversation leads to a here's a warning, please slow it down, then freak'n outstanding, if I get a ticket for the speeding, well I deserved it anyway. No hard feelings.

Wow. what a rant.

---->

[Fallguy]

As a LEO...

Thinking everyone is a criminal and mentally preparing what to do, will get you home safe at night.

Treating everyone as a criminal will get you a reputation as a-hole officer.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

As a LEO...

Thinking everyone is a criminal and mentally preparing what to do, will get you home safe at night.

Treating everyone as a criminal will get you a reputation as a-hole officer.

[The Rabbi]

I tend to think LEOs will presume the worst because that is what they deal with every day. It is bound to rub off. I can sure understand that, but it isnt an excuse.

[molonlabetn]

So you are scared of the mentality that Punisher is expressing or think it's what causes the us vs them issues, but you are entering into the situation with the mentality that the leo is just wanting an excuse to lock you up and take away your rights. Sounds like the same thing to me, just in the opposite direction.

I don't go into any encounter with fear or a preconceived notion that the LEO is out to 'get' me. Quite the contrary, I just want to be left alone. If I broke a traffic law, do your thing and we'll be on our way. To be perfectly fair, I've only been pulled over twice since I've had my permit, and neither time did my gun or my permit come up (once I didn't have my gun with me). But I'm not so naive that I think their JOB is not to use any excuse available to look for a reason to make an arrest...

Do you think that LEOs are just out there passively hoping to get lucky and have evidence fall into their lap?

However, it seems to me that it is LEOs who presume the worst about anyone whom they encounter even before there is evidence of criminal behavior... and while that's understandable from a precautionary standpoint, in terms of simply being aware, that doesn't give any credence to the overwhelming emphasis on using a simple traffic or equipment violation as a foot-in-the-door to a fishing expedition.

So yes, I do think that the attitude which many LEOs present is one of imposing authority, before there is any evidence of wrongdoing. If there was not precedent for being asked to submit to a search, be detained, etc... good people would be alot more supportive of law-enforcement activities. There's nothing that private citizens can do to change that relationship, unless you think it's perfectly reasonable to expect Americans to abandon their desire for privacy, respect and freedom in the interest of convenience and ultimate authority of the government agencies to dictate their terms to us.

As a LEO...

Thinking everyone is a criminal and mentally preparing what to do, will get you home safe at night.

Treating everyone as a criminal will get you a reputation as a-hole officer.

Exactly!

That is the difference.

[Guest db99wj]

As a LEO...

Thinking everyone is a criminal and mentally preparing what to do, will get you home safe at night.

Treating everyone as a criminal will get you a reputation as a-hole officer.

I agree with that.

And also I believe in not being an a-hole either. I act respectful, therefore I demand respect back.

[Guest canynracer]

As a LEO...

Thinking everyone is a criminal and mentally preparing what to do, will get you home safe at night.

Treating everyone as a criminal will get you a reputation as a-hole officer.

So wait....asking you to step out of your car is treating you like a criminal? I dont recall punisher saying you are in cuffs, or at gunpoint...

hell I would prefer to be out of my car anyway...

[Fallguy]

So wait....asking you to step out of your car is treating you like a criminal? I dont recall punisher saying you are in cuffs, or at gunpoint...

hell I would prefer to be out of my car anyway...

I did not say what treatment would make someone feel like a criminal.

As far as being ordered out of the car, it would depend on the situation if it made some feel like a criminal I guess. Especially if the LEO is doing it just to show he can for no other valid reason.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Fallguy

[Guest eyebedam]

:blah::blah:

Edited May 7, 2008 by eyebedam

[Punisher84]

I think we can probably all sum this thread up very simply by saying the following:

There are cops who don't know the law and treat people like crap "because they can" and that is wrong.

There are permit holders who have neither the common sense or integrity to have a pellet gun let alone a CCW badge (shudder) and a gun.

Rabbi and I will never agree on anything and if we do I hope your bug-out bag is ready because the world is over.

and all in all this has been a spirited discussion and has had alot of different viewpoints, but at least no one called anyone names

[Guest bkelm18]

I think Voldemort called someone an idiot, but I'm fairly certain thats nothing new.

[Punisher84]

I think Voldemort called someone an idiot, but I'm fairly certain thats nothing new.

:D

[saintsfanbrian]

I think all LEOs at least know there are legally armed civilians in the state and others and no one is accusing them of breaking the law. Nor did I ever advocate or suggest throwing someone to the ground and cuffing them. That is a prejudiced statement.

All LEOs are voluntary. I'm reserve. Voluntary as it gets, doing it for free. I expect no one to give up their rights, but I expect to be complied with. If you don't want to offer the info voluntarily fine, but if I pull you over for speeding and run your license and it pops back you have a permit I'm not gonna worry to much about it if I see a gun, but if I don't know you have a permit and ask and you say no and you have one. We're probably going to be having a conversation at the rear of your vehicle for a moment. Then that person can go on a forum and talk about how this dick cop pulled them over and DEMANDED to see their gun and infringed all up in dey rights. Then I'll go home or to the range and thank God that it was just a civilian who was carrying and it all worked out and not someone who would have shot me.

This is where the law comes in to play. If a cop Asks for my permit I MUST hand it over. If he doesn't ask I am in no way required to tell him I have one. If you see the gun and ask, you will get it, if you don't and don't you won't. If I give you my permit, it doesn't mean that I have a gun on me. I could be going to my child's school and rather than deal with the hassle I leave it at home. What business of a LEO's is it then?

[strickj]

I frinkin hate seeing a thread titled my encounter with a cop.

140 post of people comparing ball sacks......and one pair of panties

Edited May 8, 2008 by strickj

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

I tend to think LEOs will presume the worst because that is what they deal with every day. It is bound to rub off. I can sure understand that, but it isnt an excuse.

You're right, that isn't an excuse. It's a reason. And a very valid one at that. Just knowing what they deal with day in and day out, you bet your sweet a** I'm going to make the traffic stop I'm in the very smoothest it can be.

Maybe on the last stop he made, the idiot driver did pull a gun on him. You think he isn't on sensory overload at this point?? Please. Maybe it's not his business whether I'm carrying or not, but since I'm not out to prove anything, I'll let him know when I am carrying. If I'm not carrying, the permit would most likely stay in the pocketbook.

To each his own. This thread is going in circles now. Peace out.

Edited May 7, 2008 by TNDixieGirl

[Guest eyebedam]

Well...I zoned out in my neighborhood after picking up dinner and didn't stop..enough at a stop sign. Saw the blues...damn.

Pulled over...hands in plain sight. LEOs approach from both sides.

The "main" LEO introduces himself says no big deal..you just didn't stop "enough" at that stop sign back there.

I say...OOPS. Sorry. Before I go reaching for my ID I want to tell you I have a permit and I have my pistol on me. He says; OK, no big deal. I pull my ID and he goes back to his car.

Comes back a few minutes later, no ticket, but he told me that 90% of cops aren't shooters. The next time I get pulled over, I should have my license and permit ready to go when they come to the car. the word "gun" makes the hair on their neck stand up. I told him I had always heard to keep my hands where they can see them until told otherwise.

He said...and I quote. You can have your stuff out of your wallet before they can call in the stop.

Nice guy...should have invited him to TGO.

I think Voldemort called someone an idiot, but I'm fairly certain thats nothing new.

First of all Bklem the reason he called me that was because I was giving him hell for setting a video camera up @ a traffic stop plus just trying to get a laugh. I that I know have not talked trash or messed with you but if thats what you feel like doing its fine by me. The reason for the blahs Is this thread started because a guy got pulled over & by the way his orginal post sounds like the LEO was halfway cool with him. Gave him a suggestion on having his stuff together next time because the word guns make them nervous. I can halfway understand that. I have my on thoughts on alot of LEO,s but Ill save that for another thread. However

this has turned into a 15 page thread on if you should show your permit or not or to say if your carrying a weapon or not or if you should be a

A--hole or not. Thing about taking the A--hole approach is you get the wrong cop & your liable to be the next Rodney King. Regardless of how you look at it having your HCP is a privilage with our current goverment the way they have it set up & all it takes is a few stupid charges because you pissed of a a--hole cop & it will be gone. I know a few LEO,s & when were drinking & hanging out I here them tell there stories of how so & so Got smart & was being a prick over something silly & you wouldnt belive some of th e stuff they can come up with just to either cost you money, time, or just generally screw you over. BTW if you really want to get into a trash talkin war im game. Its fun.

[Guest bkelm18]

First of all Bklem the reason he called me that was because I was giving him hell for setting a video camera up @ a traffic stop plus just trying to get a laugh. I that I know have not talked trash or messed with you but if thats what you feel like doing its fine by me. The reason for the blahs Is this thread started because a guy got pulled over & by the way his orginal post sounds like the LEO was halfway cool with him. Gave him a suggestion on having his stuff together next time because the word guns make them nervous. I can halfway understand that. I have my on thoughts on alot of LEO,s but Ill save that for another thread. However

this has turned into a 15 page thread on if you should show your permit or not or to say if your carrying a weapon or not or if you should be a

A--hole or not. Thing about taking the A--hole approach is you get the wrong cop & your liable to be the next Rodney King. Regardless of how you look at it having your HCP is a privilage with our current goverment the way they have it set up & all it takes is a few stupid charges because you pissed of a a--hole cop & it will be gone. I know a few LEO,s & when were drinking & hanging out I here them tell there stories of how so & so Got smart & was being a prick over something silly & you wouldnt belive some of th e stuff they can come up with just to either cost you money, time, or just generally screw you over. BTW if you really want to get into a trash talkin war im game. Its fun.

Fairly certain I didn't call you an idiot. If you would like to re-read the post you quoted, I said he called someone an idiot which is nothing new....

[Guest eyebedam]

Fairly certain I didn't call you an idiot. If you would like to re-read the post you quoted, I said he called someone an idiot which is nothing new....

No problem. My apologies then.

[DaveTN]

Wow…. Another us vs. them thread.

I couldn’t make it through all 15 pages but I have to say that there is some real bad advice being given here by some respected forum members that are dressing it up with legal language I don’t think they understand.

Keep in mind that in most cases YOU are going to determine how a traffic stop ends.

Having done hundreds of traffic stops and searched hundreds of cars can I tell you if you or your kid should refuse an Officers request to search? No… that would be ignorant. But I could give you plenty of examples where lives were impacted by making the wrong choice.

There is more to the law than reading the text on the internet and giving speeches about what the cops can and can’t do. These people will not be there to post bond for you when you are in jail. And if you are a parent you better think long and hard about impacting your kid’s future because of something you read on an internet forum.

Know what will happen with the choices you make. Be informed.

[Fallguy]

I admit I am losing my taste for all of this, but Dave I have to ask. Why is refusing a request to search such a bad idea? I mean hell let's anyone just do any damn thing they want..... Maybe next time the officer will ask your wife for some favor to get out of the ticket...hell that's fine because he is a LEO and we can't or shouldn't say no.....

Sorry.....got a little off base, but decided to leave it on here.

[DaveTN]

I admit I am losing my taste for all of this, but Dave I have to ask. Why is refusing a request to search such a bad idea? I mean hell let's anyone just do any damn thing they want..... Maybe next time the officer will ask your wife for some favor to get out of the ticket...hell that's fine because he is a LEO and we can't or shouldn't say no.....

Sorry.....got a little off base, but decided to leave it on here.

have you been drinking?

can I tell you if you or your kid should refuse an Officers request to search? No… that would be ignorant.

[Guest Hooker]

Ok, I know for a fact that if a GOOD dispatcher is involved in the traffic stop and the officer ran your plate a short time before he instituted the stop. That GOOD dispatcher has already checked to see if the person that the registration comes back to has a valid DL and if that DL has a HCP attached to it that GOOD dispatcher will notify the officer immediately, that being said alot of officers already know prior to approaching your vehicle. Of course from watching the news lately I would assume that would leave nashville police officers in the dark. Or if you have been stopped previously by that department, the history of that stop is available in their CAD. i still would not offer any information that wasnt beneficial to ME.

Cant we all just get along?