Interesting conversation with a LEO tonight

[Guest kwikrnu]

Yeah, you just remember that the next time you call 911.

It will give me something to think about for the 10 minutes or so I'm waiting for them. If they are really busy I might even catch a movie first.

[Guest kwikrnu]

I just don't believe that possession of a firearm automatically makes a person a danger to others.

I was in court this morning and the woman suing for an order of protection showed the judge pictures of me with a gun. She was like he had a gun:eek:.

Judge was like next case.

[Guest kwikrnu]

I agree with alot that's been said, but there are statements that are speckled with LEO distrust, fear, and I dare say hatred. I'm not counting Voldemort's statements because well he's Voldemort, but Fallguy, Rabbi, etc. you make such a big deal about rights and all the rest, but I don't see either of you putting your neck out for what's right either.

Regardless of what Rabbi apparently thinks, not all cops are jack-booted stormtroopers hell bent on the destruction of your individual freedoms and rights. That's congress' job. Relax people. Fight the guys in the shadows, not the boys in blue.

You don't count me because I make too much sense and your mind might explode if you stopped to think about it.

You said it well, not all cops....That means that yes there are some out there who just don't know and would care less about your rights.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

The type of LEO who would cause an issue over seeing a holstered firearm would be just as likely to cause the same issue in reaction to simply being told that there was one... I hear alot more stories resulting from the latter than the former, because pre-empting the officer's question about weapons doesn't consistently work, if the officer has an agenda to begin with (such as find a reason to take you to jail, which is undeniably their objective... else they wouldn't be confronting you).

this is so true. i dont care what anyone says. when a LEO pulls you over he is trying to find a reason to take you to jail. he might walk up and act like he is your friend and he is just there to help. but he has been trained to find something and trick you in to saying something. so he can cuff you and stuff ya

[Fallguy]

Yes I understand the apprehension of approaching a vehicle. One reason I would have my hands on the wheel and if it as night my interior light on.

If someone wants to give a LEO their HCP at the same time as their DL that is fine by me. But as molonalbe has pointed out sometimes that can cause a problem where there may not have been otherwise. As others have said it may help. So to each his own. I won't tell anyone they are right or wrong for either. As long as someone knows what they legally have to do or don't have to do, what they choose to do is their choice as I see it. So the same goes for searches, if you want to let them fine, if you don't fine...no one should criticize the other for their choice as long as it is informed decision.

I guess to some degree I'm like an ex-smoker coming down on smokers (..and I admit I hate the way some do that). I used to blindly believe in all that LEOs said and did...for various reasons over the years, that is no longer my perception. LEOs are just like any other slice of life, there are good and bad.

Now...ma'am I'll need proof those panties are red....

[Fallguy]

this is so true. i dont care what anyone says. when a LEO pulls you over he is trying to find a reason to take you to jail. he might walk up and act like he is your friend and he is just there to help. but he has been trained to find something and trick you in to saying something. so he can cuff you and stuff ya

Well....not sure they are always looking to take you to jail. But just as some of us have discussed about riding motorcycles. The safest way to ride is to assume every other vehicle on the road is going to do something that is a danger to you.

So...the safest way for an officer to be is to assume that every person he encounters intends to do him harm.

But just as you can't ticket, remove from the road, etc..other vehicles because they might cause harm to the motorcycle a rider. A LEO while being cautious and mindful should not violate the trust of the citizens he has stopped, unless they have proved themselves as untrustworthy, and if the citizen if following the law, even if the LEO doesn't like it, that is not being untrustworthy, IMO.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

LOL...red! And you sir have just trampled all over my rights!!

this thread is useless with out pictures

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Well....not sure they are always looking to take you to jail. But just as some of us have discussed about riding motorcycles. The safest way to ride is to assume every other vehicle on the road is going to do something that is a danger to you.

So...the safest way for an officer to be is to assume that every person he encounters intends to do him harm.

But just as you can't ticket, remove from the road, etc..other vehicles because they might cause harm to the motorcycle a rider. A LEO while being cautious and mindful should not violate the trust of the citizens he has stopped, unless they have proved themselves as untrustworthy, and if the citizen if following the law, even if the LEO doesn't like it, that is not being untrustworthy, IMO.

ya you may be right im just use to the LEOs here in Rhea county

[towerclimber37]

ya you may be right im just use to the LEOs here in Rhea county

I travel all over, quite a bit. I've also lived in various places while I work.

I will say that smaller towns usually are more tolerant of firearms, larger cities seem to bring out the butthole in every leo that lives there.

[Punisher84]

Fallguy,

Great last two posts. That pretty sums up how I feel. It's a choice, but it doesn't need to be us vs. them. Like I said earlier, when I get out on the street I may very well end up letting someone go and talking guns rather than writing a ticket, but I'm also going home at the end of the shift.

Someone stated earlier about a holstered firearm causing suspicion. Criminals can wear holsters to. So can people who may be taking a plunge off the deep end. Plain and simple I just want to know what I'm dealing with at a stop. No unpleasant surprises. I think that is a more than fair thing to want.

Anyway I think I've said what needs to be said from my end. My horse wants to quit being beat before it's all the way dead.

[Fallguy]

Fallguy,

Great last two posts. That pretty sums up how I feel. It's a choice, but it doesn't need to be us vs. them. Like I said earlier, when I get out on the street I may very well end up letting someone go and talking guns rather than writing a ticket, but I'm also going home at the end of the shift.

Thanks....I try my best to see both sides of a situation. Oh and if you ever pull me over, don't worry, we'll start talking guns...lol

Someone stated earlier about a holstered firearm causing suspicion. Criminals can wear holsters to. So can people who may be taking a plunge off the deep end. Plain and simple I just want to know what I'm dealing with at a stop. No unpleasant surprises. I think that is a more than fair thing to want.

Suspicion is fine, it'll keep you alive and wanting to know what you are dealing with is fine...just remember you might can get your answers by asking to see their permit, before you have to put on the cuffs.

Anyway I think I've said what needs to be said from my end. My horse wants to quit being beat before it's all the way dead.

LOL....don't you know?...beating dead horses is one of the main activities on the board.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

Fallguy,

Great last two posts. That pretty sums up how I feel. It's a choice, but it doesn't need to be us vs. them. Like I said earlier, when I get out on the street I may very well end up letting someone go and talking guns rather than writing a ticket, but I'm also going home at the end of the shift.

Someone stated earlier about a holstered firearm causing suspicion. Criminals can wear holsters to. So can people who may be taking a plunge off the deep end. Plain and simple I just want to know what I'm dealing with at a stop. No unpleasant surprises. I think that is a more than fair thing to want.

Anyway I think I've said what needs to be said from my end. My horse wants to quit being beat before it's all the way dead.

come on were not done J/K

[The Rabbi]

To go back about 3 pages, Towerclimber, I wasn't clear and I apologize I don't mean ANY gun. I'm talking about a scenario like this:

Officer: Sir can I see your license and registration?

Civilian: Yessir. (hands it over.)

Officer: Thank you sir. Know why I pulled you over?

Civilian: No sir. *shifts in the seat and exposes gun*

Officer: Sir keep your hands where I can see them and step out of the vehicle...

I find this exchange mystifying. Why would the officer ask the citizen to get out of the vehicle at that point? Why not ask "do you have a carry permit? May I see it?" Citizen shows permit, and done.

This is exactly the kind of blowing things up that are problemmatic.

I'm not counting Voldemort's statements because well he's Voldemort, but Fallguy, Rabbi, etc. you make such a big deal about rights and all the rest, but I don't see either of you putting your neck out for what's right either.

So pointing out what the law requires and informing other people about it is not sticking my neck out for what's right? Wow. I'd like to see your definition of "what's right" and sticking your neck out.

This is a simple discussion that has been blown out of proportion and taken to extremes. Regardless of what Rabbi apparently thinks, not all cops are jack-booted stormtroopers hell bent on the destruction of your individual freedoms and rights. That's congress' job. Relax people. Fight the guys in the shadows, not the boys in blue.

And apparantly you think the only difference between an honest citizen and a criminal is that the honest citizen hasn't been caught yet.

Look at the history of search and seizure law in this country. Over the past 30 years there has been a continuous weakening of basic protections in the name of security and fighting crime.

Yes, we could get rid of lots of crime if every traffic stop involved searching the person and vehicle and getting biometric IDs for everyone involved. To me that is an unacceptable price for security.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Now...ma'am I'll need proof those panties are red....

And as soon as you present me with a warrant demanding that information, I will provide the evidence you seek. :devil:

[Guest db99wj]

I'm suing all of ya's!

[Fallguy]

And as soon as you present me with a warrant demanding that information, I will provide the evidence you seek. :)

Um.....as long as it doesn't have to be issued by the court, I think I can come up with one....lol

[Punisher84]

I find this exchange mystifying. Why would the officer ask the citizen to get out of the vehicle at that point? Why not ask "do you have a carry permit? May I see it?" Citizen shows permit, and done.

This is exactly the kind of blowing things up that are problemmatic.

So pointing out what the law requires and informing other people about it is not sticking my neck out for what's right? Wow. I'd like to see your definition of "what's right" and sticking your neck out.

And apparantly you think the only difference between an honest citizen and a criminal is that the honest citizen hasn't been caught yet.

Look at the history of search and seizure law in this country. Over the past 30 years there has been a continuous weakening of basic protections in the name of security and fighting crime.

Yes, we could get rid of lots of crime if every traffic stop involved searching the person and vehicle and getting biometric IDs for everyone involved. To me that is an unacceptable price for security.

The exchange is based on part of the argument. Why not notify before. Now I need you to step out here and talk to me on my terms, because I've seen a weapon and don't know you. No cuffs, no beatings, just need to see your hands a bit better. If you stay in the car and aren't supposed to have it you might freak and try to drive away running me over or causing a wreck.

The way you are pointing out what the law requires is not as noble or right as you make it. You're taking something small that is not a hassle and blowing it up into the entire breakdown of the constitution and don't give me that "it starts small crap."

I also do not think everyone is a criminal, but the sad part is there are alot out there and I'm not going to be complacent or assume everyone is innocent and peace loving either. Second guessing what you do on a battlefield or on the streets gets you or your partner killed. I'm not living with that so I guess the first person I come across that has a permit and wants to be an ass and "fight the glorious fight" is just gonna have to really dislike that 6'3 Irish ******* cop that took 5 more minutes of his time to make sure he was a-ok to have the gun. Then sent him on his way home, knowing me probably with an apology.

[Guest kwikrnu]

it starts small... I can't help it. It's the Libertarian in me.

[The Rabbi]

The exchange is based on part of the argument. Why not notify before. Now I need you to step out here and talk to me on my terms, because I've seen a weapon and don't know you. No cuffs, no beatings, just need to see your hands a bit better. If you stay in the car and aren't supposed to have it you might freak and try to drive away running me over or causing a wreck.

If that's actually your thought process then that is very very scary.

[Guest kwikrnu]

If that's actually your thought process then that is very very scary.

It probably isn't just his thought process. It could be that is the policy of his dept., of the people who trained him, and who know who else.

[Guest canynracer]

it starts small... I can't help it. It's the Libertarian in me.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

What's scary about it Rabbi?

I read the same thing you did and didn't find it scary at all, so maybe I'm missing something in his scenario.

[Guest canynracer]

I was thinkin that...I didnt find it scary...:

[molonlabetn]

This is exactly why the idea of having a 'permit' system is wrong... it gives credence to the ridiculous idea that someone with a gun should be assumed a criminal unless 'authorized'.

Punisher, the mentality which you are outlining is exactly why such things become 'us vs. them'... by LEOs insisting on creating an issue over the simple presence of a firearm that is not their own, before even knowing that a crime is committed... as if we need their blessing to do so! As it is, the simple question "Do you have a permit?" would quickly determine whether any further action is called for, and the police are responsible for asking that question. The only time forceful reaction to the sight of a firearm is relevant is if you are being threatened with it, and that goes for everybody.

[canadienmike]

So you are scared of the mentality that Punisher is expressing or think it's what causes the us vs them issues, but you are entering into the situation with the mentality that the leo is just wanting an excuse to lock you up and take away your rights. Sounds like the same thing to me, just in the opposite direction.