Rob Pincus on subcompact 1911s

[timcalhoun]

So... what about the M&P45c and the Glock 36?. Isn't it the same deal?

Well, I think the 36 uses a single stack mag, but that is about the only similarity.

[daddyo]

So... what about the M&P45c and the Glock 36?. Isn't it the same deal?

Those aren't 1911s.

[daddyo]

.

Edited May 7, 2012 by DaddyO

[red dirt]

I agree about the user error, I'm not so sure how I would react under stress if I actually had to use my UCII. I ran through ~500 rounds one day in a class with none of the technical issues, user error is so unpredictable though.

[mikegideon]

Well, I think the 36 uses a single stack mag, but that is about the only similarity.

They're both short recoil pistols. Their operation is real similar to a 1911, almost like the knocked it off :-)

[mikegideon]

Those aren't 1911s.

No, but they're firing a short stubby round with a short stroke.

[timcalhoun]

They're both short recoil pistols. Their operation is real similar to a 1911, almost like the knocked it off :-)

I understand, but the ramp angles are different, the way they come in and out of battery are different, the angle that the barrel is in when contacting the impact surface is different, the ejector, extractor all different ect.. Several of these things make it easier for a glock to overcome the short stroke, fat round, heavy spring deal.

That was what I was trying to say. Just poorly. Sorry.

Edited May 7, 2012 by timcalhoun

[mikegideon]

I understand, but the ramp angles are different, the way they come in and out of battery are different, the angle that the barrel is in when contacting the impact serface is different, the ejector, extractor all different ect..

That was what I was trying to say. Just poorly. Sorry.

Don't misunderstand me either. I know they're finicky. They're also really cool, if I can make mine work. I don't care if it will shoot after I crap down the barrel. I don't do that to any of my pistols.

[Guest Big-A]

not sure who the fella is in the video but I think its in poor judgement to bash one entire genre of guns.....or bash anything the way he did for that matter Unprofessional.......

So what was unprofessional about the truth ? He just said the platform wasnt designed to be subcompact. John moses Browning didnt design the subcompact

[mikegideon]

So what was unprofessional about the truth ? He just said the platform wasnt designed to be subcompact. John moses Browning didnt design the subcompact

I don't think it was unprofessional either. Just saying what he sees in his classes. A lot of those types don't like ANY 1911's. Me... I'll be carrying one or two mags. If it get's uglier than that, I'll ditch all the handguns.

[Guest Rob Pincus]

Just sharing observations from the experience of thousands of guns, thousands of students and hundreds of range days every year... for about a decade.

[daddyo]

Just sharing observations from the experience of thousands of guns, thousands of students and hundreds of range days every year... for about a decade.

You know, it's hard to argue with someone who sees this on a daily basis as opposed to someone who shoots their one subcompact 1911 once a week if that much.

On a side note, care to share with us what you see as the most consistently reliable handgun?

Edited May 8, 2012 by DaddyO

[Guest Rob Pincus]

In regard to completing a two day CFS Course without a mechanical failure:

1911's in general have less than a 10% success rate (as noted in video, ZERO Percent for subCom .45s)

I lump Glock (not 4th Gen), XDs and M&Ps into one group and say they have about an 80% success rate.

Sigs & HKs are very reliable also, but the nature of the DA/SA set up is complicated and harder to shoot well.

I recommend modern striker fired guns in 9mm for Self Defense.

[Will H]

Wow... If my Beretta Storm subcompact acted like that I would get rid of it ASAP.

[mikegideon]

Glocks, XD's, & M&P's at 80%? We're all screwed

[Guest Rob Pincus]

As as been noted all over the net in the last few days, our courses are wayyyy beyond the typical defensive shooting needs of anyone. So, many guns will experience problems... but there is a clue in How Soon and How Often they fail.

[mikegideon]

As as been noted all over the net in the last few days, our courses are wayyyy beyond the typical defensive shooting needs of anyone. So, many guns will experience problems... but there is a clue in How Soon and How Often they fail.

I figured that. Just get me to my rifles.

[BigK]

Just sharing observations from the experience of thousands of guns, thousands of students and hundreds of range days every year... for about a decade.

As as been noted all over the net in the last few days, our courses are wayyyy beyond the typical defensive shooting needs of anyone. So, many guns will experience problems... but there is a clue in How Soon and How Often they fail.

Everything I've read and every instructor I've ever listened to say the same thing. It's not bashing or stating opinion to say some types of guns are better for certain purposes and it's not an unfair blanket statement about any single type/brand. It's based on scientific observation and I believe it.

I had the privilege of attending one of Aaron Roberts' classes and he gave me a hard time about bringing my SA/DA CZ-P-01, instead of a striker-fired pistol. Initially I was offended...CZs are damn good guns and mine ran perfect all 3 days (~1800 rounds). However, my first shot from a ready position in DA was CONSISTENTLY less accurate than from the same position in SA...just like he said.

I believe that if you see consistant patterns over thousands of experiences, you'd be crazy not to use/share that info.

Edited May 8, 2012 by BigK

[Guest A10thunderbolt]

I just wonder though, when the SHTF is one gun best for everyone? I started out with a glock I thought it was great except for the trigger. Then I was told just keep practicing you will get more accurate so I did I was more accurate shooting paper except in a quick draw self defense drill then not so much. The first time I shot a 1911 was 2 Months ago I was accurate from the start especially when compared to quick draw with the glock. Also working on the trigger only made the glock temperamental so no good for carry unless the trigger sucked. I'm just saying I'm not going to be putting 200 rounds through my gun in a defense situation so why not go with a gun that I am accurate with from the time I first picked it up? I don't even have to worry about trigger control it just hits where I aim it.

Edited May 8, 2012 by A10thunderbolt

[Guest Rob Pincus]

Some of that might be context (what kind of targets/distance are you worrying about?), some of it might be technique (how were you presenting the gun, using the trigger?)... but, the bottom line answer for me is that you are looking at percentages. It isn't that the 1911 is ALWAYS going to shoot 200 rounds flawlessly then ALWAYS crap out. It is that you have a 75 in 1000 or 100 in 1000 or 50 in 1000 CHANCE of a failure instead of a small fraction of that.

[gregintenn]

Mr. Pincus, I would like to know your opinion of the success rate of Smith and Wesson revolvers.

[mikegideon]

Everything I've read and every instructor I've ever listened to say the same thing. It's not bashing or stating opinion to say some types of guns are better for certain purposes and it's not an unfair blanket statement about any single type/brand. It's based on scientific observation and I believe it.

I had the privilege of attending one of Aaron Roberts' classes and he gave me a hard time about bringing my SA/DA CZ-P-01, instead of a striker-fired pistol. Initially I was offended...CZs are damn good guns and mine ran perfect all 3 days (~1800 rounds). However, my first shot from a ready position in DA was CONSISTENTLY less accurate than from the same position in SA...just like he said.

I believe that if you see consistant patterns over thousands of experiences, you'd be crazy not to use/share that info.

The P01 went thru some of the toughest endurance testing in the world, and passed with flying colors. Mine had an NSN number.

[tnhawk]

My Ultra CDP II, EMP 40 and G27 have consistantly performed to the standards I require.

[Jonnin]

John moses Browning didnt design the subcompact

That is probably 95% of the problem He would have known what could and could not be done to shrink it reliably (or figured it out).

About the CZ.... I had mine converted to SAO for that very reason (makes every shot the same). Its 1911ish .... cocked and locked, SAO (though sloppy as all get out, basically a 2-stage trigger because the reset is way too long). Awesome pistol. Highly recommend the SAO mod as well (CZ custom shop).

[peejman]

Welcome Rob. Thanks for participating.