A snubbie by any name...

[wjh2657]

There have been many references to short barreled revolvers or "snubbies" in these posts. What I find somewhat disconcerting is that all of the short barreled revolvers are lumped together as one class of handgun. When ammo is discussed or methods of carry are covered, there is generally a mixture of information in one thread that actually tries to come up "one rule for all" when it comes to selecting weapon, ammo and method of carry for a short barreled revolver.

With 30 tears of Active duty in the USMC, two years as an LEO and a Civilian with a HCP for several years now I have determined my own needs for a self defense weapon. For reasons all my own, which may or may not pertain to anybody else out there, after over half a century of carrying a semiauto I have settled on the revolver for personal protection. I am just going to throw around a few of my own personal thoughts on recommending revolver systems for personal protection.

The beginning of determining your "personal armament" is to determine your real needs. I am a short, balding, older ( 69 YO) man who does not look at all threatening. My looks belie a life of training with and carrying a handgun. I have carried and used a handgun in combat. I attended two separate courses of instruction at Gunsite (When "Colonel Jeff" was still an instructor there). I practice daily in a home range with a S&W 317 that closely approximates my carry weapons and I fire at an indoor range biweekly with all three of my revolvers. I do not state this for bragging rights but to show that I comply with an imperative for snubby systems and that is that you practice often to master the capabilities of the weapon system. Even though familiar with my weapons and somewhat prepared for combat, I use my physical appearance to avoid conflict as my primary defense. As I age, I have become much more skilled at using herding techniques and staying clear of known or apparent danger zones. In short, I have become the consummate "Gray Man." I am retired and live in a very well policed and quiet rural community. Again environment matches needs.

I find it difficult to meet all my defense needs as and have the freedom to dress appropriately with just one weapon. That doesn’t mean everybody will, some do not modify their mode of dress that much, so one weapon surely would do.

Guns: I prefer to stick with one family of guns. I have chosen Smith and Wesson but the Ruger equivalents ( S&W 642/Ruger LCR, S&W 640/Ruger SP101 a and S&W 686/Ruger GP100) are of equal quality. I left out Colt because they are no longer in production and I prefer to stay with systems are that are currently still being manufactured, preferably in the USA. I do my own armorer work on my weapons and have purchased all of the S&W videos (AGI) and manuals. Thus I can keep up this group of guns.

Grips: after twice dropping and dinging up a S&W 637 with wood grips when my hands were wet, I came to the conclusion that there are good reasons for rubber grips, ugly as they are.

Holsters: Go for quality holsters, enough said.

Ammunition: The ammo I show below has proven itself for terminal ballistics and for easy recoil recovery in the selected weapons. Each weapon has one big limitation: weight. The gun’s weight will absolutely determine its capability to recover after a shot with any given ammo. Those who claim all kinds of super grips and special techniques for recoil recovery are disregarding the basic laws of physics. More going out the front (bullet weight and velocity) means more coming back to punish you (recoil) No design in a revolver is going to change that. If you are going to fire the weapon enough with carry ammo to be proficient, you have to have the recoil level such that you can physically handle the weapon for rapid fire.

System#1: Light Clothing deep concealment.

S&W 642. Stock boot grips, Bianchi Speed Strips, Hornady (standard pressure) .38 Spcl 125 gr. XTP/JHP and a GALCO Pro 158 Pocket Holster.

System#2: Heavier clothing Outer garment (sweater or jacket) for concealment.

S&W 640. Stock “banana†grips, Safariland Speedloaders, Speer .38 +P GDHP 135 gr. Short Barrel and a Bianchi 105 Minimalist belt slide.

System# 3: House (bump in the night) and country walks . Usually a long outer garment worn outside of trousers to conceal weapon (Gray Man, remember?).

S&W 686. Hogue Overmold grips, Safariland Speedloaders, 357 Magnum 135 gr.GDHP Short Barrel and a Bianchi Accumold Belt Slide.

Edited May 6, 2012 by wjh2657

[gjohnsoniv]

Very nice revolvers, a big caliber one is very much lacking from my collection.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Those look great. Some time might get a 3" revolver, which MIGHT be short enough to call a snubby or maybe not. Had a S&W 649 which seemed a good "sweet spot" because it has an exposed hammer nub for cocking and single action fire, but is unlikely to get hung up in a draw. Finally sold off the 649 because long ago could shoot 50 or 100 rounds without pain. But lately would shoot 10 or 20 rounds and the wrist would hurt all day.

The 4" .357 revolver doesn't hurt the wrist like that. Dunno if a 3" revolver would be heavy enough to avoid wrist pain. Perhaps a 2.6" or 3" 627 big frame "snubbie" wouldn't hurt my wrist, dunno. That wouldn't exactly be a "pocket gun". AFAIK S&W only sells a 2.625" barrel 627 (in the short-barrel models) this year, but I've read in previous years sometimes they would sell 3" 327 or 627 large frame "snubbies".

[wjh2657]

The 686 has a 2 1/2 " barrel and I find it still comfortable to shoot, using the Speer short barrel Magnum ammo. I stick with the short barrels because they are easier to draw and clear clothing and are better for weapon retention in a real close encounter. For the close in (<25 feet) envelope I train for, the short barrels are plenty accurate.

I left out #4, my S&W317 .22 that I shoot for practice. . I try to shoot 30 rounds daily with this gun, just to keep the reflexes up to snuff. I fire CCI CB Shorts at a Bullet trap at 10. 15 and 21 feet (longest measured shot in my house)

The snubbies require very fine eye to hand coordination to be accurate. They are not guns for a "Once a Year" shooter!

Edited May 6, 2012 by wjh2657

[Patton]

How are the Banana grips on that 640 btw? I have a set Pacmyar Compacs that I often put on but like the bananas because there thinner,

[wjh2657]

I tried several different grips on the 640, including Pachys but I shoot best with the stock banana grips, which also conceal better. Although it is the .357 Magnum rated version of the 640, I long ago decided that it was actually my .38 +P gun! Hurts like Hades to shoot .357 rounds in it, but handles well with the +P rounds, especially the SPEER 135 Gr.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

The 686 has a 2 1/2 " barrel and I find it still comfortable to shoot, using the Speer short barrel Magnum ammo. I stick with the short barrels because they are easier to draw and clear clothing and are better for weapon retention in a real close encounter. For the close in (<25 feet) envelope I train for, the short barrels are plenty accurate.

...

The snubbies require very fine eye to hand coordination to be accurate. They are not guns for a "Once a Year" shooter!

Thanks wjh2657. Yep, definitely not "once a year" pistols. I didn't have any experience with pistols til becoming an old fart. The 649 was the first/only pistol for maybe a year but I shot it regularly at the time. Got pretty accurate shooting the 649 when it was regularly practiced. Years later shooting it a couple of times per year, the broad sides of barns had little to fear from my 649.

Maybe even a 686 snubbie would be heavy enough to avoid old-age wrist pain. Hadn't thought about that.

I tried several different grips on the 640, including Pachys but I shoot best with the stock banana grips, which also conceal better. Although it is the .357 Magnum rated version of the 640, I long ago decided that it was actually my .38 +P gun! Hurts like Hades to shoot .357 rounds in it, but handles well with the +P rounds, especially the SPEER 135 Gr.

That banana grip seems one of the easiest grips of any kind of gun to keep a good hold on. Fits the hand so good. Actually, my 649 only got ultra-painful after swapping in flat-butt crimson trace grips. Then shooting it would hurt the wrist enough to inspire a stream of bad words. Maybe that would have happened even with the banana grips, but if I'd a been any way scientific should have put the banana grips back on the gun to find out what effect the grip had on recoil, versus the effect of getting old. Perhaps the "somewhat soft" banana grips are significantly less painful to shoot? Dunno, having not been smart enough to try the experiment.

[wjh2657]

I tried CT grips and didn't much like them. The laser slowed me down. I felt like I was in a "Arcade" mode with the laser. I do use my sights but it is a very quick sight picture type shooting. The only sight mod I use is that I paint my front sight a semblance of International Orange with good fingernail polish. I practice the hold on the pistol enough that the rear sight lines up on its own. "Orange on target , fire!" Close range shooting with a snub is all practiced body position and a quick fix on the front sight. At the range (<25') that I am likely to need a gun, all that fancy target stuff I learned at Parris Island and Gunsite are going to slow me down and make me dead! If I were back on duty, I would practice more aiming and longer range stuff, but now I need to be able to put everything in a 5" circle fast!

Edited May 6, 2012 by wjh2657

[greenego]

I am finding I carry my Sp101 more and more. Maybe it's the age 58. Maybe it's living in Knoxville and not feeling like I will need 20 rounds for self defence. I would like to take a class on carrying the subbie, but all I have found are out of state.

[Guest lrodgers]

Very nice. Love the 686.

[wjh2657]

Very nice. Love the 686.

My favorite revolver in any barrel length. I think S&W has established the state of the art for a carry and rough field DA revolver in the 686. you have the best of the Model 66 and the Model 27 in one revolver.

[Moped]

I'm a Colt fan, myself. When I feel the need to carry, I have a Gen 2 Colt Agent .38spl that I carry with two HKS speedloaders. Round of choice is the Federal 130 gr Nyclad.

The finish on it, is a little worn, but it's a shooter and it has a smooth as glass trigger.

[Bassoneer]

My favorite revolver in any barrel length. I think S&W has established the state of the art for a carry and rough field DA revolver in the 686. you have the best of the Model 66 and the Model 27 in one revolver.

WJH,

Very nice post and thread...I have very similar guns and no semi's (have had many plastic semi's, two or three 1911's, etc...none now that I have experience with them). I also feel as if being in Knoxville, staying away from trouble and trying to stay home at night (and being 50)...I don't look like much of a threat to anybody so I don't think I need 15-20 rounds from a military type gun...a snubbie is perfect for me. I have a 3" Ruger GP100 that is probably similar to your 686 snubbie...it is an awesome carry gun (a little heavy, but gives me good peace of mind).

Best wishes, B

Edited May 8, 2012 by Bassoneer

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I tried CT grips and didn't much like them. The laser slowed me down. I felt like I was in a "Arcade" mode with the laser. I do use my sights but it is a very quick sight picture type shooting. The only sight mod I use is that I paint my front sight a semblance of International Orange with good fingernail polish. I practice the hold on the pistol enough that the rear sight lines up on its own. "Orange on target , fire!" Close range shooting with a snub is all practiced body position and a quick fix on the front sight. At the range (<25') that I am likely to need a gun, all that fancy target stuff I learned at Parris Island and Gunsite are going to slow me down and make me dead! If I were back on duty, I would practice more aiming and longer range stuff, but now I need to be able to put everything in a 5" circle fast!

Thanks wjh

Tried CT grips on two small guns that barely have any sights at all, a 649 and a NAA .380. The CT grips didn't make me any more accurate but without trying it out I wouldn't have known. Some folks report success.

You have better shooting aptitude. Point-shooting ought to be relatively accurate point-blank, but for me not really.

Five shot J frame ought to be enough rounds but you never can tell. Been lately toting a Kahr P9 that conceals better than the 649 ever did and has 3.6" barrel, but it is only 7.+ 1 rounds. An 8 shot 627 snub would have the same capacity, though it would be a bigger heavier lump in the pocket or on the waist.

Some S&W custom shop off-the-shelf 627's use moon clips from the factory. I'm so thumb-fingered with mag changes that a moon-clip reload would probably be as fast (or as slow) as a mag change. Corbon 9mm 125gn JHP+P is 1250 FPS, 434 ft lbs. Corbon .357 Mag 125gn JHP+P is 1400 FPS, 544 ft lbs. A tad of a difference.

Been tryin to talk myself into getting a 627 but a 686 might make better sense. Stores around here stock 686 but hardly ever stock 627's.

[wjh2657]

WJH,

I have a 3" Ruger GP100 that is probably similar to your 686 snubbie...it is an awesome carry gun (a little heavy, but gives me good peace of mind).

Best wishes, B

I have a good buddy who has the short barreled GP100. It is an excellent, well made SD carry gun. If a GP100 ever happens to just fall in front of me at a good price I will not hesitate to buy it. Ruger makes some really tough handguns. Again I stick with S&W because I work on my own guns and I know the S&Ws.

[A.J. Holst]

My first EDC was a SP101, so I have an emotional attachment to snubbies.

It is still in rotation both as a primary and bug.

I do have "miracle" grips, from Trausch.

They best feeling grips I have tried and make the pistol enjoyable to shoot at the range.

The downside to these grips is size, concealment with a jacket or loose cut overshirt is necessary.

I am proficient to 3 yards with either hand, but my greatest weakness is I don't practice reloading.

AND A SHAMELESS ADVERTISING PLUG FOR RANDY HARRIS

Greenego - June 23/24 Randy is conducting his Close Range Gunfighting class that weekend in south Knoxville. Check out his schedule for course details --- don't see why you couldn't go to school with a snub-nose revolver.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Gotthegoods

[Wheelgunner]

Wjh, I really like the idea of getting to know all about one line of revolvers, and then using that company's line to suit your handgun needs.

My carry gun is an SP101, and it does (well) everything I need a carry gun to do. I'd still like to get either a longer barreled GP100 or the new 4.2" SP101 for those times when I go out in the woods.

Great thread!

[tnhawk]

When I don't choose to carry a .45 or .40, a S&W 442 fits my pocket well.

[wjh2657]

Wjh, I really like the idea of getting to know all about one line of revolvers, and then using that company's line to suit your handgun needs.

My carry gun is an SP101, and it does (well) everything I need a carry gun to do. I'd still like to get either a longer barreled GP100 or the new 4.2" SP101 for those times when I go out in the woods.

Great thread!

Now order the Ruger Armorer's AGI Video below:

http://www.americang...ction-Revolvers

This will be the best investment you have ever made for your weapon system. Learn how to maintain your revolver, how to perform routine function checks and diagnose problems. This is an Armorer's course, not a gunsmithing course, but it will help you to prevent problems and to properly recognize the need for gunsmithing if a problem does occur.

The video covers all of the double action revolvers in the system. By settling on the Ruger DA revolver family, you will always be well armed and prepared for SD, now learn how to take care of them.

Edited May 20, 2012 by wjh2657