OC article that everyone could take lessons from

[Makiaveli]

I pretty much always CC myself, for various reasons. But "the element of surprise" is much for effective "offensive" technique rather than a defensive one.

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems to me if the "bad guy" doesn't know you are armed, that would increase the odds of you being able to access it versus him knowing you are armed when he targets you.

PS: Can I have you guys's holsters? Will work till I can get a good one.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Makiaveli

[Guest kirkosaurus]

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems to me if the "bad guy" doesn't know you are armed, that would increase the odds of you being able to access it versus him knowing you are armed when he targets you.

Think about it, if a bad guy knows you're armed he will most likely choose an easier target. That's called defense.

The "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic. You want to be on the defense and deter the crime before it actually happens, not try to "surprise" the criminal by looking like every other sheep so you can attempt to dig your gun out from under your cover garment and try to shoot him after he already has the jump on you.

[Fallguy]

I may be misunderstanding you, but it seems to me if the "bad guy" doesn't know you are armed, that would increase the odds of you being able to access it versus him knowing you are armed when he targets you.

PS: Can I have you guys's holsters? Will work till I can get a good one.

I can't really offer much proof, as it is hard to prove a negative....but I really think the odds of you being targeted in the first place if you are OCing are slim.

If has targeted you and you go for your weapon, he may be surprised yes.....but I'm not sure how that helps any more than if you were OCing.

Regardless, situational awareness is the best thing you can do, CC, OC or not armed at all.

[Guest HankRearden]

So, if an openly carried firearm deters crime because the bad guy will go find an easier target exactly what happens?

Is a less prepared person suppose to become the victim?

[TMF]

So, if an openly carried firearm deters crime because the bad guy will go find an easier target exactly what happens?

Is a less prepared person suppose to become the victim?

Yes. I have my ADT sign posted in front of my house and a loud dog on the premises. This would deter someone casing my house for burglary/robbery. That person is just gonna look for a softer target, and that is in no way my problem.

Deterring crime doesn't mean preventing a crime from taking place, it just means its being deterred from a potential target.

[tennessee01tacoma]

Anyone watch that Fobus holser video? I know I won't carry them anymore. That dude snapped it right off that other guys waist.

I bet you could pull that trick with almost any plastic or even kydex paddle holster. It doesn't mean that its a bad holster, but it is an inherent weak point in a paddle holsters design. I have a Fobus out of about 100 holsters I tried it was the only one I found that would fit my SP2022. I know that it is not a fantastic holster but for me to quickly slide in my waist and go for a walk I couldn't beat it for 30 bucks. I am looking at a crossbreed supertuck, it is one of the few companies that makes a decent holster for my gun, but even after I get a supertuck I can still definitely see times where I would choose the paddle holster over the supertuck.

[Fallguy]

So, if an openly carried firearm deters crime because the bad guy will go find an easier target exactly what happens?

Is a less prepared person suppose to become the victim?

Ideally no one would be a victim, but that is not reality. If the less prepared person has the choice to prepare and doesn't then that is something they need to deal with.

[BrasilNuts]

Until criminals start doing AARs we'll never know how many are actually deterred by OC.

"The armed robber (who has his gun concealed) will just shoot you in the back of the head before moving on to take the cash. Or he might do worse…what if he takes your child hostage and orders you to give up your gun? Most people don’t think about that possibility."

Is there any proof of either of theses two scenarios ever happening to an OCer?

[TMF]

What if the robber has a dirty nuke strapped to him that is triggered by the stopping of his heart? That would negate having a weapon in the first place since you wouldn't be able to shoot him.

What if the bad guy has welded together a homemade tank and goes on a spree of destruction? A handgun won't stop him... it's happened before... could happen again.

What if, what if, what if. How 'bout just using common sense, law of averages and level of comfort to determine what your carry method will be?

[Guest kirkosaurus]

LOL, after commenting on this thread I had a dream last night that I was a detective in a movie and my partner was played by Matthew McConaughey. He was randomly trying to grab my gun from its holster to prove the "gun grab" theory. He could never grab it as my hand firmly locked it in every time. At one point he even picked me up off the ground trying to remove it. I remember vividly thinking in the dream I was gonna post that on TGO. Wow, I need to stop eating spicy food before going to bed.

[Makiaveli]

Think about it, if a bad guy knows you're armed he will most likely choose an easier target. That's called defense.

The "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic. You want to be on the defense and deter the crime before it actually happens, not try to "surprise" the criminal by looking like every other sheep so you can attempt to dig your gun out from under your cover garment and try to shoot him after he already has the jump on you.

All this is very dependent on the situation. If a criminal has a gun in your face, then whether you are carrying at all or not is pretty much moot. If he is robbing the store you are in, CC vs OC would very likely have an impact on whether you are treated differently from everyone else. My point being, it isn't all about deterrence.

I can't really offer much proof, as it is hard to prove a negative....but I really think the odds of you being targeted in the first place if you are OCing are slim.

If has targeted you and you go for your weapon, he may be surprised yes.....but I'm not sure how that helps any more than if you were OCing.

Regardless, situational awareness is the best thing you can do, CC, OC or not armed at all.

I didn't get deterrence from your post, so I think I did misunderstand. But as above, I wasn't thinking so much about being the sole target of the BG's attention. Also wasn't there a post somewhere on this forum about someone who almost had their gun stolen while OCing?

Granted that incident doesn't mean it isn't effective as a deterrent, any more than the statistic about cops being shot with their own guns. That would presumably include situations where the cop got his butt kicked and then had his gun taken.

Thanks for the replies, the more knowledge spread around, the better

Until criminals start doing AARs we'll never know how many are actually deterred by OC.

"The armed robber (who has his gun concealed) will just shoot you in the back of the head before moving on to take the cash. Or he might do worse…what if he takes your child hostage and orders you to give up your gun? Most people don’t think about that possibility."

Is there any proof of either of theses two scenarios ever happening to an OCer?

Doubtful. First someone who have to compile the info, and secondly there aren't, statistically speaking, that many OCers. Doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate concern. My take on it is it's like any other decision you make. Decreases the odds of some things happening, increases others. Like flying vs driving long distance. Less likely to have an accident, but more likely to die if one happens.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Makiaveli

[Wheelgunner]

Despite how unusual it is for a stranger to walk up and try to take someone's handgun, I agree with the author's point that armed citizens should be more concerned with weapon retention. But then he says some genius thing like this: "I’ve done that scenario on dozens of students. It almost always works. I end up with their gun and they have a puzzled look on their face." Well, sure none of his students can stop him from disarming them. He's a damn combatives instructor at a police academy! He wouldn't be much of a martial arts instructor if he was incapable of disarming the students he gets paid to train! That has no connection to the common criminal on the street, who is probably more skilled at picking his nose or scoring some H than disarming me. I figure the odds of me ever being assaulted, disarmed, and robbed by a 16-year veteran police officer and expert combatives instructor are about the same as the odds of me being a sandwich.

But in regard to his comments on police involvement, I have to wonder if the author has ever met a real life police officer. Perhaps I go too far to assume that most cops are smart enough that, when responding to a man with a gun call and upon seeing everybody acting normally, they will realize what has probably happened (i.e. paranoid caller + HCP). I'm no rocket scientist, but if a guy in a store actually drew a gun and started threatening people with it, as a responding officer I would expect to hear customers screaming and running, and to see people hiding or a complete absence of anyone in the store. Contrary to what the author implies, cops aren't stupid. They have to make tough decisions every day and apply common sense to analyze stuff in real time. They generally do that well. They're cautious, but none of the cops I've ever met are unreasonable enough to tackle a guy as he's choosing toilet paper or comparing light bulb prices simply because they see a holstered handgun on his hip.

The author claims that criminals are not deterred by OC. That's great. I don't OC to deter criminals from accosting me. In fact, the reason I carry is I expect some stupid criminal will do just that. When I OC, I do it because I want easy access to my weapon for whatever reason. Or I do it because I'm going to a place where nobody will mind, and it's more comfortable. Or I do it because I'm only going on a quick errand and really don't care who sees my weapon.

Finally, at his fourth point his argument against OC completely falls apart. So, because people have plastic holsters they shouldn't OC? What if I buy a nice leather holster? So now it makes sense to OC when it didn't before?

[BigK]

Anyone watch that Fobus holser video? I know I won't carry them anymore. That dude snapped it right off that other guys waist.

At a class I took once, the instructor did this demonstration...only he sprung for a fancy Galco Matrix holster instead. The Fobus video could've saved him $30, LOL.

[gjohnsoniv]

I feel like he left out several points. Yes, police officers have their sidearms taken at times, but how so? Most of what I have heard is that they loose them when they end up in a hand to hand fight with a person and end up on the ground. He also makes it seem like the only people who are going to be attacked are the ones who are carrying. Also I don't think a clerk at the grocery store would go and call the cops if you're standing there with a basket in your hand or cart by you minding your own business, they probably wouldn't notice in the first place. I know I don't check every person who walks in the door at the store for a gun, and I doubt the grocery store clerk does either. Unless you were to get a super liberal, anti-gun vigilante clerk, which if you do, you probably have bigger problems and they aren't doing their job.

As someone else pointed out, he's the instructor, he should be able to take a student's firearm. He wouldn't be a very good teacher if he couldn't. The average Joe off the street won't know how to defend against that sort of thing.

Finally if you think someone is going to be waiting to sneak up behind you and shoot you in the head, you probably shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Guest FIST]

If I start to let the fear of something as specific as that control my life then whats the point? I could die in a car accident tomorrow, does that mean I shouldn't use the interstate because the speed maintained could lead to a higher probability of a fatal crash? When you start worrying about the what if's you should re-evaluate your priorities. Too many good things in life to live with worry like that.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

Personally I always CC for all the reasons that have already been stated. I would however be joining those protesting if our state was to ever want to take away our right to OC. I feel like OC has it's time and place although I have not yet thought of just what that time and place may be for me.

The video also made me check out my Forbus holster and while I am not going to say that it could never happen as easily as it appears to in the vid I tried with all I had in me to tear the thing apart and was unsuccessful in doing so but it was showing signs of giving away. Given that my pants would also give somewhat I think that it would take one very strong individual to just rip it away as quickly as the video shows.

I do however have less confidence in the holster than I did just a few minutes ago. Also as I said my weapon is always concealed at least by a cover garment so I have to figure that whomever has the intent to take my weapon must first have observed that I had one to begin with. Not impossible but also IMO not very likely.

I think that the author makes some good points but none that most all of us have not already heard.

I will add that I see people here OC'ing almost everyday at the dollar store, the grocery store and pretty much everywhere that I go I have at one time or another seen folks OC'ing and have yet to see any police response because of it. That certainly does not mean that there never has been a MWAG response only that I have never seen one myself.

Also I listen quite a lot to the police scanner and have heard on numerous occasions when a MWAG call comes in and the officers ask the dispatcher to find out just what the person is doing besides just carrying a gun. I like hearing that because it tells me that at least some of our officers are aware that some folks can simply be freaked out at the sight of a weapon. While I dont OC it makes me feel better in knowing that if by chance my weapon is ever seen that at least some of the officers are going to handle the situation without themselves freaking out.

As I have said I strictly CC but fully support those who chose to OC and I dont think that most of them do it to feel macho or anything of the sort, IMO they are just exercising their right to do so and I hope that we never lose that right here in TN.

This thread has also brought a conversation that I have been having with a friend the past few weeks about lanyards to mind but rather that hi-jack this thread I will start another to ask for your thoughts on that subject.

[Makiaveli]

But in regard to his comments on police involvement, I have to wonder if the author has ever met a real life police officer.

I was under the impression he was a cop. Or did I misunderstand? Also, a smart cop isn't going to make assumptions about a man with a gun call. Didn't he say in the article it was possible the guy knew the cops were on the way and decided to holster and act calm? All it takes is one calm crazy guy to kill you. How many cops have been shot because all they wanted to do was tell the person they pulled over their tail light was out and let them go?

That said, his video is on Youtube by now. So all it takes is some punk to see it, and cross your path. Odds? Slim. But so are your odds of being attacked period, and yet you carry when it would be easier (safety aside) to not carry.

It's a very personal balancing act.

[gjohnsoniv]

I think he is a police trainer.