OC article that everyone could take lessons from

[98SS1LWEE]

Now i'm not saying it's right, but if you read the article you will gain some perspective from it in some way. I'd say it's floated around here already, just didn't see it

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-perils-of-open-carry

What you guys think?

[gregintenn]

Some very good points to ponder. This one is likely my favorite:

Smart gun owners don’t use junk holsters.

[dkd83]

Well done article, glad to read it.

[101]

Ok. Few thoughts on this.

What they tell the dispatcher when they call has no basis in truth. It usually ends up being something like: “There’s a man with a gun running around the grocery store scaring people!†If you were a cop, how would you respond to that call? I know I would respond with lights and siren and have my gun out on arrival. As soon as I saw the person described, I would put him on the ground at gunpoint and handcuff him until I could figure out what’s going on.

That sounds great and all but this seems like a dispatcher that needs to find a new job. Most dispatchers ask tons of questions about the reported MWAG call. They are capable of discerning the difference between an over zealous call and an honest to God problem with a few simple question. So if cop shows up and goes all gungho then that's the cops fault.

Other than that, there was some good points brought out in the article. Specially if you're wanting to be a super safe nanny. I think the main reason cops get shot with their own gun is the criminal thinks to himself "no way your taking me alive coppers!". Citizens can't send bad guys to jail and ruin their fun time. Why would they want a confrontation that will draw attention and possibly get them shot when they can just break into 5 houses and get more guns than they can carry? Only nutjob, cracked out space cadets would do something as brazen as try to steal my gun while at walmart. Possible? Sure is. Just as possible as me getting hit by a meteorite while I'm leaving for work tomorrow. Am I going to stay home and change over a maybe? Nope.

I open carry everywhere I legally can. Have been for over 3 years now. Cops never bother me. No one has gone crazy and confronted me about it. I have had the pleasure of schooling countless people who, believe it or not didn't even know you were allowed to carry a gun by law. I open carry in the liberal heartland (wholefoods, demos, etc) and I have had the best of conversations about it. They maybe liberals, but a liberal is nothing more than someone who is void of facts. Most of them don't even realize anything more than their 2 foot radius around themselves to care much about what I'm doing or wearing.

I don't mind the risks of OC'ing as long as I can educate and be a good example of the positive side of gun ownership.

[LagerHead]

That article reminds me of pieces by the Brady bunch. The only difference is Brady at least attempts to use data to back up their crap. This guy uses anecdotes and conjecture and nothing else. I think I'll get my advice elsewhere, thanks.

[TMF]

Ok. Few thoughts on this.

What they tell the dispatcher when they call has no basis in truth. It usually ends up being something like: “There’s a man with a gun running around the grocery store scaring people!†If you were a cop, how would you respond to that call? I know I would respond with lights and siren and have my gun out on arrival. As soon as I saw the person described, I would put him on the ground at gunpoint and handcuff him until I could figure out what’s going on.

That sounds great and all but this seems like a dispatcher that needs to find a new job. Most dispatchers ask tons of questions about the reported MWAG call. They are capable of discerning the difference between an over zealous call and an honest to God problem with a few simple question. So if cop shows up and goes all gungho then that's the cops fault.

Other than that, there was some good points brought out in the article. Specially if you're wanting to be a super safe nanny. I think the main reason cops get shot with their own gun is the criminal thinks to himself "no way your taking me alive coppers!". Citizens can't send bad guys to jail and ruin their fun time. Why would they want a confrontation that will draw attention and possibly get them shot when they can just break into 5 houses and get more guns than they can carry? Only nutjob, cracked out space cadets would do something as brazen as try to steal my gun while at walmart. Possible? Sure is. Just as possible as me getting hit by a meteorite while I'm leaving for work tomorrow. Am I going to stay home and change over a maybe? Nope.

I open carry everywhere I legally can. Have been for over 3 years now. Cops never bother me. No one has gone crazy and confronted me about it. I have had the pleasure of schooling countless people who, believe it or not didn't even know you were allowed to carry a gun by law. I open carry in the liberal heartland (wholefoods, demos, etc) and I have had the best of conversations about it. They maybe liberals, but a liberal is nothing more than someone who is void of facts. Most of them don't even realize anything more than their 2 foot radius around themselves to care much about what I'm doing or wearing.

I don't mind the risks of OC'ing as long as I can educate and be a good example of the positive side of gun ownership.

I don't OC but you make some very good points there.

[maddog909]

Even though we can carry open in TN. I feel concealed is the way to go since in many cases we retain the element of surprise not to mention a perp sneaking up behind us and relieving us of our firearm.

[wewoapsiak]

Interesting...I don't open carry but the picture / video of the Fobus holster made me look over at mine and say "Piece of $H!t". I must have hurt it's feelings b/c it didn't reply, I'll take it to walmart later to make it feel better though.

[Dennis1209]

To each his own. But for me, just like in Army basic training, I didn't want to draw special attention to myself, I wanted to blend in, get the job done and go about my merry way. I'm all for open carry, the more the merrier. It draws that much more attention away from me and in theory I'm less likely to be a victim. We all know everyone likes surprises... Surprise, BANG, BANG, BANG. Who said, "what you don't know can't hurt you"?

To me it's just simple common sense. You don't go to Walmart or where ever wearing your Rolex, $3,000.00 gold neck chain and diamond ring and flash a wad of cash around unless you're asking for attention. If you open carry, you're making a statement, hey look at me, I'm packing, here it is right here, LOOKY!

It's a good thing very few if anyone open carries around here because, my wife would get exasperated at me talking to them about guns, ammo, etc. and not get the shopping finished. Just my opinions guys.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Dennis1209

[Fallguy]

Even though we can carry open in TN. I feel concealed is the way to go since in many cases we retain the element of surprise not to mention a perp sneaking up behind us and relieving us of our firearm.

I pretty much always CC myself, for various reasons. But "the element of surprise" is much for effective "offensive" technique rather than a defensive one.

[gun sane]

That article reminds me of pieces by the Brady bunch. The only difference is Brady at least attempts to use data to back up their crap. This guy uses anecdotes and conjecture and nothing else. I think I'll get my advice elsewhere, thanks.

I wonder if anyone has worked up statistical proof that OC is a deterrent.

[Guest 270win]

I don't open carry in TN because I don't want to be noticed and also some places like certain local parks and places with other signs you can possibly get fined. A little too gray for me to open carry, not notice some sign, and get fined for it. I think open carry has caused a lot of these signs to go up.

[mikegideon]

Some very good points to ponder. This one is likely my favorite:

Know where we can get really good holsters?

[LagerHead]

I wonder if anyone has worked up statistical proof that OC is a deterrent.

I'm not sure, but plenty of studies have shown that criminals' biggest fear is an armed victim.

[TMF]

To me it's just simple common sense. You don't go to Walmart or where ever wearing your Rolex, $3,000.00 gold neck chain and diamond ring and flash a wad of cash around unless you're asking for attention. If you open carry, you're making a statement, hey look at me, I'm packing, here it is right here, LOOKY!

I don't think that is true of the vast majority of OC'ers. The Kwiks of the world may do that sort of thing but I don't think someone who is OC'ing is doing so for attention. Some folks just don't let that attention bother them. Maybe I would OC if I wasn't so insecure about folks watching me; it would allow for me to use a much more comfortable holster for one thing.

[TMF]

I wonder if anyone has worked up statistical proof that OC is a deterrent.

I don't think it's possible to prove that one way or another. I would just go with anticipating criminal behavior. Criminals are generally cowardly opportunists who prey on the weak and defenseless. It ain't much of a stretch to figure they don't want an encounter with someone equally or better armed. Not to say that couldn't happen, but it would not be evident of typical criminal activity. Edited April 27, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest FiddleDog]

hmm...we'll take fobus off the buy list indefinitely....I looked at the video of the holster being ripped off of your pants...yup...good argument for well constructed leather holsters right there...

To get back on thread, I can understand a criminal not being deterred by knowing that their mark is armed. In east nashville, people were being kidnapped over $300 bucks. According to the news reports, the net haul on the Pierre Cola's murder was something like $150 and a couple of credit cards. These criminals already have a questionable profit motives. When 2 criminals held up a full restaurant, the Holland House, they went 2 vs 25+ people for what couldn't have been over $2k in cash - everyone knows that NO ONE carries cash these days.

I'm not sure that we should assume that a criminal will come to the logical conclusion when entering into risk analysis.

On the other hand...not knowing and having the situation change on them immediately gets the fear flowing before they can think, "I don't care."

Edited April 27, 2012 by FiddleDog

[JayC]

That article reminds me of pieces by the Brady bunch. The only difference is Brady at least attempts to use data to back up their crap. This guy uses anecdotes and conjecture and nothing else. I think I'll get my advice elsewhere, thanks.

Read the quotes at the bottom... The guy makes 90% of his living from corporate welfare mandated by the state.... IE he is a handgun permit instructor... He has a vested interest in people using his service to get a carry permit, and not using open carry which requires no permit in his state.

Simple rule - follow the money.

Get rid of the corporate welfare... no more mandated useless courses required by the state to carry a firearm... less than 1% of people fail the current course, it is completely useless as a method to bad behavior with firearms.

[TMF]

Get rid of the corporate welfare... no more mandated useless courses required by the state to carry a firearm... less than 1% of people fail the current course, it is completely useless as a method to bad behavior with firearms.

I agree that a mandated course as a vetting tool is pointless, but the education of the permit holder of the laws is the real thing folks should take away. Should folks have to pay a bunch of money for the education? Well no. The state could simply have a guide issued out with the permit or something like that. I would go so far to say that a test down at the DMV (same as for a DL) would cover it, but I don't believe that a test should be a requirement.

[Seabeejason]

Anyone watch that Fobus holser video? I know I won't carry them anymore. That dude snapped it right off that other guys waist.

[Guest No Ammo]

Read the quotes at the bottom... The guy makes 90% of his living from corporate welfare mandated by the state.... IE he is a handgun permit instructor... He has a vested interest in people using his service to get a carry permit, and not using open carry which requires no permit in his state.

Simple rule - follow the money.

Get rid of the corporate welfare... no more mandated useless courses required by the state to carry a firearm... less than 1% of people fail the current course, it is completely useless as a method to bad behavior with firearms.

+1

[Oh Shoot]

Anyone watch that Fobus holser video? I know I won't carry them anymore. That dude snapped it right off that other guys waist.

Better than shooting yourself with a Serpa.

- OS

[JayC]

I agree that a mandated course as a vetting tool is pointless, but the education of the permit holder of the laws is the real thing folks should take away. Should folks have to pay a bunch of money for the education? Well no. The state could simply have a guide issued out with the permit or something like that. I would go so far to say that a test down at the DMV (same as for a DL) would cover it, but I don't believe that a test should be a requirement.

I say you could put the videos, and an online test on a website, and allow people to take the test from the comfort of their own home... Total cost to the permit holder?? Maybe $5

But, I don't think we need a test at all, look at Vermont, Arizona, and Alaska, no permits are required, they don't have any more incidents of citizens breaking the law than we do here.

There is no reason you can't leave the DMV with your permit, do a simple NCIS background check, if it passes, add licensed carry as an endorsement to your drivers license.

Or for that matter lets just have Constitutional carry and be done with the silliness of the state being involved.

[TMF]

I say you could put the videos, and an online test on a website, and allow people to take the test from the comfort of their own home... Total cost to the permit holder?? Maybe $5

But, I don't think we need a test at all, look at Vermont, Arizona, and Alaska, no permits are required, they don't have any more incidents of citizens breaking the law than we do here.

There is no reason you can't leave the DMV with your permit, do a simple NCIS background check, if it passes, add licensed carry as an endorsement to your drivers license.

Or for that matter lets just have Constitutional carry and be done with the silliness of the state being involved.

All much better options than the current system, which I believe restricts citizens of lesser means from getting their permit.

I'm one of those people that didn't have to attend the course in order to get my permit. Somehow I was able to self educate with the information available from the state and didn't have to pay someone to tell me something I could easily find out on my own.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

That article reminds me of pieces by the Brady bunch. The only difference is Brady at least attempts to use data to back up their crap. This guy uses anecdotes and conjecture and nothing else. I think I'll get my advice elsewhere, thanks.

I was thinking the same thing. This guy is paranoid fear mongeror. He uses the same reasoning as the anti-gun people: If it CAN happen it WILL happen every time!!!

Starting with his first point. He states that "Open carry will cause hassles". No, OC may cause hassles. And just because something may happen we don't stop doing, especially when the benefits outweigh the chance that it will happen. The chance that you will ever have to use your concealed firearm in a self defense situation is almost zero but that doesn't mean you should just leave it at home. Same reasoning as the Brady bunch.

His scenario of a person calling in a "man with a gun OMG!!" call could just as easily happen with a concealed carrier when he bends over to get that can of green beans on the bottom shelf and the grip of his gun pokes out from under his shirt.

Paranoia: "The armed robber (who has his gun concealed) will just shoot you in the back of the head before moving on to take the cash. Or he might do worse…what if he takes your child hostage and orders you to give up your gun?"

Yeah, cause that happens all the time!

Paranoia: "Think about this for a second. You are open carrying a gun on your right hip. I walk up to you and engage you in casual conversation…something like “Hey! Don’t our kids go to the same school?†As you are trying to figure out who I am, I move closer and I grab your right hand with my right hand and pin it to my chest. You struggle, but because I’m stronger, you can’t free yourself. As soon as I have the arm controlled, I grab your holstered pistol with my left hand. How are you going to stop that?"

Yeah, cause tactical ninjas are always following you around everywhere you go trying to steal your firearm!!!

Fear, fear, fear. All fear mongering. It's his job.

Is it possible you will scare people? cause a hassle? get your firearm taken away from you? "Get shot first"? Yeah, anything is possible. But the facts are this is so rare it just doesn't happen.

Is it possible you can have your concealed firearm taken from you? Yep, it is possible:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/71002412.html?m=y&smobile=y&c=y

So by this guy's rationale we should just all leave our guns at home!