Looking for tiny gun with low recoil

[jgradyc]

I posted this on the women's discussion area, but it's worth an opinion from guys, so here is my question.

My 61-year-old sister wants to carry. She is a minister's wife and often most go to and from her car in seedy areas of town. She is only 4 foot 10 inches tall, so she would be an easy mark for any bad guy.

She has her HCP, but finding a suitable weapon has proven to be very difficult. She has VERY, VERY small hands and she is very weak. The Bersa Thunder 380 and Walther PK380 were too big for her hand. She has SMALL hands. My Taurus 85 38 special was so big that she could barely hold it. It took all her strength to pull the trigger and it bruised her hand, leaving it purple the next day. She won't carry it or shoot it again. I thought about buying her a small 22 revolver, but everything I read says the trigger pull is hard on these little revolvers. Forget the LCP and KelTecs, by the way. I have one. She tried it and it was too big and too hard to pull the trigger. Plus, those little guns kick, especially for a senior citizen with arthritis. I'm willing to pay for gunsmithing if that's what it takes to find something for her. By the way, I just bought her a Jennings J22 and a Beretta Bobcat 25ACP that I intend to field test soon for reliability, but I'd prefer something with more rounds and/or more firepower. They aren't much gun, but right now she has no gun. In my thinking, a 4 foot 10 inch, 90 pound woman is better off with a 22LR/25ACP gun instead of NO gun.

Okay, so what are her options? Also, while we are at it, what about a home defense weapon? I'm thinking maybe a Youth model 410 shotgun?

Edited April 23, 2012 by jgradyc

[Guest cardcutter]

you might want to look at the NAA derringers in 22. They are small,some fit on a belt buckle.

While I would not carry one they do beat not having anything.

Edited April 23, 2012 by cardcutter

[Glock30]

.22 magnum is going to be your best bet under the circumstance. Like cardcutter said, the NAA line is going to fit the size requirement as well.

http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/magnums.html

They also offer .25 ACP semi-autos, but my personal, unscientific opinion is that a .22 magnum is going to be a better caliber.

[UncleJak]

I will suggest a Phoenix hp22, if she can rack the silde. The recoil is almost non-exsistant.

As far as a shotgun, the H&R 410 single shot is nice, but still has a bit of kick. It is probably the lightest kick of any shotgun I have ever shot, but still enough to bruise my 11 year old son.

[Mike.357]

Ask her if her life is worth a bruise or an uncomfortable grip.

It is not like she is gonna practice or pounds rounds downrange anyway is she?.

I'd seriously talk her into a .38 special revolver of some sort.

At minimum a .32 auto, Beretta makes one that is small.

[Jonnin]

the 22 mags in mini revolver actually have a modest recoil. Another try before you buy --- I would get a bigger framed gun, and as I said in the other thread, the taurus 941 is excellent, 8 shots of 22 mag in a small (fits in a pocket) but managable package, it is especially tame in the steel frame (not the ultralight).

The mini is also a pain to reload, and I can see that being an issue for clumsy, arthritic hands (?). You have to take a pin out, pull out the cylinder, load it, and put it all back in (align the pin is not easy for the elderly, IMHO).

[1gewehr]

Try a Taurus 941 UltraLite in .22 mag. From the factory, the trigger pull can be a bight stiff, but it can be esily lightened and smoothed out. Eight rounds of .22mag is nothing to sneeze at.

Ruger also makes the LCR in a .22LR, 8-shot version.

S&W makes the M351PD which is a 7-shot .22WMR.

Charter Arms is just a six-shot, but it's stainless, model 72224 Pathfinder

I'd be tempted to try out the Taurus or Ruger. The Ruger is only a .22lr, but it's very light and compact. If she can manage the trigger pull on the .38 LCR, the .22 should be lighter.

[Jonnin]

the LCR is a DAO, which she probably cannot handle. The taurus is a DA/SA, which she may manage, it is not clear. For those of us with bad hands, long pulls are bad in any flavor, even if light. I cannot handle most guns that fire this way -- I cannot fire most revolvers in DA pull, and can just barely manage my beretta nano, but not enough to practice with it. Its a backup emergency only gun for that reason.

Since it seems to have moved here I also recommended the p238 for the same reasons (short trigger pull) and the walther p22 or ruger clone of it (trigger to grip ratio, modest pull). But it comes down to what she can do with her hands. I can rack my desert eagle but I cannot pull the trigger on a LCR. My wife cannot pull a revolver hammer back without both hands on the gun and even then it is hard for her. My mom cannot rack the slide on most autos. They are different areas of hand problems, all three... thumbs vs fingers, grip vs pull strength, and so on. We really need more info on what exactly she can do and what is a struggle and what is impossible.

[tnhawk]

.22 magnum is going to be your best bet under the circumstance. Like cardcutter said, the NAA line is going to fit the size requirement as well.

http://northamerican...ms/magnums.html

They also offer .25 ACP semi-autos, but my personal, unscientific opinion is that a .22 magnum is going to be a better caliber.

22 Magnum is usually easier to find than .25 ACP.

[Guest adurbin]

Taurus M22

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[Guest Lester Weevils]

Would a Beretta Tomcat or Bobcat be worth consideration? Bobcat comes in .22LR and .25 auto, and Tomcat .32 auto. Never shot a Tomcat and dunno if it has noticeable recoil. The little .25 and .22 pistols in this size don't have much.

You can download pdf manuals at the beretta usa site-- http://www.berettaus...odel-21-bobcat/

They have the tilt barrel so you don't have to rack the slide. They are DA/SA and the manual claims that they can be used cocked and locked, but it would be worth verifying that is true. Some of the little pocket pistols have a safety but it acts like a decocker. The Taurus web site shows little guns that almost look like clones of the Tomcat/Bobcats, with a thumb safety, but the specs list double acton only. Maybe you can carry a taurus pocket gun cocked-and-locked as well, and the web specs are merely inccorect. Dunno.

The Beretta's don't have extractors and some people claim they can be ammo picky, but in a caliber that small it probably won't be especially LESS USEFUL if you only stick to whatever ammo works best, even it it happens to be round nose or whatever?

Maybe depends on whether your sister will be comfortable carrying cocked and locked, and whether she has thumb dexterity to reliably work the safety before firing, and can reliably remember to re-engage the safety after firing.

If she can't/won't carry cocked and locked, and a glock 26 is just too big, then most of the other things are gonna have at least slightly-stiff long pull triggers merely for basic carry safety? The little Kahr DA pistols for instance don't have especially stiff pull but it is long pull. I certainly wouldn't carry a pistol without a safety, if it also had a light short trigger. That would be just asking for accidents, at least in my hands.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Jonnin]

I am not aware of any decent (short and light, anyway) trigger guns with no safety. Glock is about as light as it gets and even those have that half inch of do-nothing trigger spring pretravel before it fires, and you have to hit the finger pincher button to use the trigger.

I found the beretta tip ups to have an excessive trigger pull and was only just able to fire them. However I have only shot a couple of examples, could have been the specific guns (brand new and stiff??? not sure!!). And that was with the hammer already back, it just took a lot of force to go bang. The tip up is and ease of use of the rest of the design is quite good for bad hands, so it depends on the shooter if the trigger is usable.

Which brings up the main point... you can carry a cocked and locked hammer down and cock it the once if you like. Some people are OK with that manual of arms. Its not much different from using the safety, 1 action to bring the gun to bear either way.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Jonnin

[JC57]

I don't have personal experience with it, but I have read that the Sig P238 has low recoil for the .380 since it is not a blowback action like so many of them. It is also SA only so the trigger pull should be pretty easy. She'd just have to learn and practice using the safety properly.

I have a Beretta .25 ACP and while it is pretty tame with just regular practice ammo, Hornady XTP makes for quite a snappy recoil so you may find that a .25 isn't the right answer for her either.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks Jonnin

Maybe the Tomcat and Bobcat would have too-stiff trigger even single action cocked'n'locked, dunno. I shot one awhile back and didn't recall it being real stiff, but maybe they tend to be stiff and can't be lightened up. Dunno.

Old dad has an old Colt Junior .25 auto and I really like that tiny thing. The trigger is pretty good if I recall, can carry cocked and locked, is reasonable accurate, minimal recoil, and doesn't even hurt the ears much if you occasionally shoot it without earmuffs. If I saw a colt junior or something "of good quality" like that would be tempted to impulse-buy. That colt junior's main problem I know of is slide bite. It will draw blood if you don't watch out. Not a serious painful injury, but if you use a high grip and a fleshy hand don't be surprised to have a little blood on the back of your hand after shooting it.

Maybe there is something as good or better than a colt junior that has more of a tang and doesn't have slide bite. Maybe it is hammer bite, but think its slide bite.

Been tempted to get a Bobcat or Tomcat as a toy "like the colt junior" but just been keeping an eye out for what is available, since its no hurry to get another toy.

Edit-- Also apologies to jgradyc because reading the first time thru did not notice that you had already bought a Bobcat for her to try.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest RobThatsMe]

Why not take her to the range and let her try out a few rental guns before she buys one.

[kieefer]

Or take her to G&L or another gun shop and have her try them on like shoes.

The Bobcat was my first thought but a Lady Smith may work for her too.

[jgradyc]

This is the OP. Thanks everyone for the great suggestions. My sister lived several hours away so I only see her once a year. She lives in a small town and the nearest decent LGS is over an hour away. I've tried to get her to drive to it herself, but everyone who has a sister knows they don't really listen to brothers.

I think my best bet is to buy 3-4 of these small mouseguns and let her take her pick a couple... one to carry and one for car/bedside. You can never have too many firearms, in my opinion.

I like the idea of the 22 mag mini revolver - safe to carry, easy to fire. I just bought her a Beretta Bobcat 25ACP today. If she can handle the Bobcat, I'll buy her a Tomcat 32ACP to carry and the Bobcat to practice with. They appear to be identical except for weight and caliber.

I'd like to find one of those revolvers in 22LR or 22 mag that 1gewehr listed, but I haven't actually held any of them to see if the grip is small enough.

I also liked the idea for the Phoenix HP22. I might buy one of those, too, but since I just bought a Jennings J-22 on Sunday, I'll wait to see how she likes the Jennings. I must have lucked out because it's a very reliable little gun so far and has the recoil of a BB gun.

I also picked up a Beretta Bobcat yesterday. The trigger pull is a bit too hard for her on double action, but light enough with the hammer back. The safety was a little hard to release, but I imagine it will get a bit easier as it breaks in. I might look into the revolvers and the mini revolver in 22 mag, if I can find them.

I also bought her an Uncle Mike's glove to help with practice grip and to get accustomed to the recoil. Hopefully, once she is not afraid of the recoil, I can move her up to .380.

Edited April 24, 2012 by jgradyc

[Dolomite_supafly]

If you are thinking about 22 magnum in a tiny gun I would rethink it. The reason is the 22 magnum needs barrel length to get velocity. By most accounts the 22 magnum rarely gets beyond 22 lr velocities when fired out of a 5 inch barrel and with that you get a lot of muzzle blast.

I would buy a 22lr and then load it with the 60 grain SSS rounds. I recently chronographed some out of a 2.75" barrel. The velocity is within 10 fps of some ballistic gelatin tests I seen. The penetration was right at 10" ensuring it can reach vitals of most people.

I do have a backup 22lr pistol. And all I carry in it is the SSS rounds. Even though the velocity is ~800 fps that is fast enough to penetrate.

A big advantage of the SSS is because of the shorter case it tends to be more reliable than many standard 22 lr. You need to make sure to test fire it enough to make sure it will cycle if using a semi auto.

If you don't want to use the SSS then I would use the Velocitor. It has a heavier bullet than most other 22's and also has a higher velocity than most as wel.

And the worst thing you can do is use Stingers, Aguila supermaximum, Winchester Xpediter or any of the other hyper velocity rounds. They need barrel length to work. I have chronographed nearly every hypervelocity round out there and none have made it past 1,100 fps out of a 4.5" pistol. Most come in under 1,000 fps and when you consider they have really lightweight bullets you would be better off with a 22 short. Most 22 shorts achieve similar velocities out of shorter barrel without all the fuss.

Dolomite

[LI0NSFAN]

Find a gun that fits her hand and has a recoil she can handle and then have a smith lighten the trigger if possible. You will have a little more in cost but isn't it worth the extra to make sure she is comfortable with using it. I am sure there is a smith out there that will help you get exactly what she needs. As far as cal. I would stick with 22mag or 25 they both should be little enough of a kick for her and still hurt enough to slow/stop someone.

I had a colt vest pocket that had little to no kick in 25acp, I don't recall the trigger pull on it but I bet that can be lightened.

[ttocswob]

I've posted before on my wife's Bobcat/Tomcat combo, so I'll spare you the details and just +1 it.

[JAB]

I trust my NAA mini in .22 WMR as a weak hand BUG. Going by the numbers in the velocity charts on the NAA site and comparing them to the numbers they post for .22LR out of minis with the same barrel lengths, I believe that you do see at least a slight velocity advantage by going with .22WMR. The real advantage to my mind, however, is that in general .22 WMR ammo is better constructed (full length size bullet crimped into case like centerfire ammo, not heeled like .22 LR plus the option of truly jacketed bullets.)

I tested both Hornady Critical Defense and Speer Gold Dot self defense WMR ammo from mine (it has the 1 5/8 inch barrel) with gallon water jugs. Both made it only into the third jug - actually, the Gold Dot was embedded in the back of the third jug - but while the Critical Defense gave little expansion and I was disappointed with its condition, the Gold Dot gave textbook expansion and came out looking exactly like the picture on the box. I have tested some 'regular' WMR rounds that gave no expansion but made it into a fifth jug. In fact, el cheapo Winchester Dynapoint (which is loaded to a lower velocity than most and uses a washed, not jacketed, bullet to mimic the old WRF loads) exited the fifth jug, made a hole in the face of the sixth then rebounded back to be found in the bottom of the fifth jug and showed no, real expansion. I know people aren't water jugs but what the heck, people aren't jell-o, either - I still thought that was pretty good penetration.

All that said, I am not sure I would recommend a mini revolver for a person who sounds like a novice shooter, especially one with arthritis problems. The need to hang onto a tiny grip (there can be a lot of muzzle flip with the factory birdshead grips) while pulling back the single-action hammer for each shot under stress with an impaired, novice shooter just sounds like a recipe for trouble, to me. There is nothing wrong with my hands and I still had to put the oversized, rubber grips on mine so that I could control it for follow-up shots (I practice shooting it one-handed with my weak hand because if I ever had to use it 'for real' that is how I envision having to shoot it.)

This is not a recommendation as I have never owned or even shot one but just a thought to toss out in case nothing else meets her needs: High Standard made a 'derringer' type gun in .22 WMR that had a double action trigger. They can command a pretty hefty price, now, but I have seen them for sale at gun shows. A double action trigger would eliminate the necessity of remembering to pull the hammer back under stress. The biggest downside, of course, would be the two-shot capacity - I wouldn't, personally, be comfortable with that as an 'only' gun. Also, the double action trigger might be too much for her. All that taken into consideration, however, if she can operate the trigger and if would work for her where nothing else would it is better than no gun.

Edited April 24, 2012 by JAB

[TNWNGR]

This has been a really good thread with lot's of good idea's. No one mentioned the Taurus PLY 22 which is a flip up barrel pistol in the $200.00 range. This little gem has a really nice trigger that does not have a heavy pull. Don't rule out a 22 LR semi auto rifle like the Ruger 10-22 or Marlin 795 either for in the house.

[johnk4jmk]

I posted this on the women's discussion area, but it's worth an opinion from guys, so here is my question.

My 61-year-old sister wants to carry. She is a minister's wife and often most go to and from her car in seedy areas of town. She is only 4 foot 10 inches tall, so she would be an easy mark for any bad guy.

She has her HCP, but finding a suitable weapon has proven to be very difficult. She has VERY, VERY small hands and she is very weak. The Bersa Thunder 380 and Walther PK380 were too big for her hand. She has SMALL hands. My Taurus 85 38 special was so big that she could barely hold it. It took all her strength to pull the trigger and it bruised her hand, leaving it purple the next day. She won't carry it or shoot it again. I thought about buying her a small 22 revolver, but everything I read says the trigger pull is hard on these little revolvers. Forget the LCP and KelTecs, by the way. I have one. She tried it and it was too big and too hard to pull the trigger. Plus, those little guns kick, especially for a senior citizen with arthritis. I'm willing to pay for gunsmithing if that's what it takes to find something for her. By the way, I just bought her a Jennings J22 and a Beretta Bobcat 25ACP that I intend to field test soon for reliability, but I'd prefer something with more rounds and/or more firepower. They aren't much gun, but right now she has no gun. In my thinking, a 4 foot 10 inch, 90 pound woman is better off with a 22LR/25ACP gun instead of NO gun.

Okay, so what are her options? Also, while we are at it, what about a home defense weapon? I'm thinking maybe a Youth model 410 shotgun?

I would suggest the sig p238 i have one and it is very safe to carry cocked and locked, so that way she wouldn't have to worry about racking the slide and they shoot very well with low recoil, or the other option that came to mind is the smith&wesson 637 airweight something she can shoot single action instead of a heavy DA trigger. but thier are so many options on the market just let her handle as many guns as she can and she'll know when she has found the right one, as for home defense 12 gauge shotgun with 3 inch 00buckshot beside your bed will always do the trick.everybody says a pistol of some sort for home,but emagine waking up to someone breaking in your house and you trying to get your sights ligned up to make a shot half asleep and scared also. with a shotgun in a room the size of a bedroom the spread of a shotgun will do it.in a home defense situation let the bad guy come to you and be ready do not approach them(all sorts of senarios could be played out on that theory also).hope this helps you a little, i know ill probably get bashed for some of the things i said here but its my opinion on the subject.

[Dolomite_supafly]

This has been a really good thread with lot's of good idea's. No one mentioned the Taurus PLY 22 which is a flip up barrel pistol in the $200.00 range. This little gem has a really nice trigger that does not have a heavy pull. Don't rule out a 22 LR semi auto rifle like the Ruger 10-22 or Marlin 795 either for in the house.

This is the gun I was referring to in my earlier post. It has been supremely reliable with the 60 SSS rounds. The magazine feed lips had to be tweaked a little to make it reliable with everything else. But now I have well over 500 trouble free rounds of bulk ammo through it and over 300 SSS rounds through it without a single issue. The velocity runs in the 750-800 fps range using the SSS this gives the penetration that makes it a viable, low recoil alternative to a pointy stick. There is no other 22lr loading in this gun that will give even close to the energy levels of the SSS. And it is this energy that carries the bullet to the vitals. And on top of that is generally turns sideways making for a much bigger wound channel.

Is a 22lr ideal, not even close. Is it ideal when loaded with the SSS? Not even close but it is better than any other alternative 22lr round in a short barrel. Without a doubt the SSS is the best option for short pistol barrels.

Here is some testing I did last year with a pistol:

Firearm Pac-Lite

Barrel Length 4.5"

Caliber 22LR

Brand CCI

Name Velocitor

Low Velocity 981.6

High Velocity 1054

Average Velocity 1007

Extreme Spread 72.86

Standard Deviation 41.03

Firearm Pac-Lite

Barrel Length 4.5"

Caliber 22LR

Brand Winchester

Name Xpediter

Low Velocity 1000

High Velocity 1124

Average Velocity 1042

Extreme Spread 123.6

Standard Deviation 71.02

Firearm Pac-Lite

Barrel Length 4.5"

Caliber 22LR

Brand Winchester

Name Subsonic HP

Low Velocity 848.5

High Velocity 875.9

Average Velocity 866.5

Extreme Spread 27.45

Standard Deviation 10.77

Firearm Pac-Lite

Barrel Length 4.5"

Caliber 22LR

Brand Federal

Name Auto Match

Low Velocity 868.3

High Velocity 944

Average Velocity 918.7

Extreme Spread 75.71

Standard Deviation 43.58

If you notice all the hypervelocity rounds are way down from advertised. I have tested the SSS and it stays about the same regardless of barrel length. I will admit the shortest barrel I have tested was the Taurus which is 2.75".

Dolomite

[Guest bulluck533]

NAA mini revolve in 22 mag would be hard to beat.