Ok, so what can/should I do?

[Guest archerdr1]

Ok, some of you have heard a bit about this story, but I will explain for the new ones. This question is probably most easily answered by LEOs, but any input from the Constitutionalists on here would be appreciated too. This is also a fine example of issues with the permit system.

About 3 months ago we had a boy in our church youth group come to us saying that he had been kicked out of his house. He is 14 yrs old. We found him a place for the night while we fixed up a room for him at our house. the next evening I went to his family and talked with them. They lied through their teeth saying that they didn't tell him to get out, but that if he didn't like the rules, find another place to live. I now have a recording of the step mother saying "Get the F*** out of My house. So, anyway, the more we have talked to this boy, the more worried we have gotten. I also found out, and here is the flaw in our permit system, that the step mother is Bipolar, abuses prescription meds, and has a permit and a 9mm glock. How she is clinically diagnosed with Bipolar and has a permit, I will never understand, but she is troubled and has a HUGE anger problem. We have him, and his sister started coming over for weekends. the more she told us the more worried we got for her safety, so I finally pulled the dad aside (Who has no balls to stand up to his girlfriend and tell her to stop beating and berating his daughter) and said, look, she is being beaten down physically and emotionally, get her out of that house. She is, as of yesterday, living with us too. We are raising funds to take them on a mission trip to Belize this July (which, to take 6 ppl there is really expensive btw). I think the opportunity to serve people less fortunate than they are will do them a lot of good. We have both teens living with us now, which puts a strain on our finances, but God will provide for that, so we aren't worried about that. I told her yesterday that we don't want her thinking that she is visiting, but rather, that she is home, where she will be loved and respected.

There are two more kids living in that house, a 6 yr old boy and a 9 yr old girl. They are treated really well as they are her kids.

The concern I have is that gun in her possession. If she goes any more crazy, I don't know what she will do. What can/should I do in this situation? I will give this disclaimer, We have already been through the Child Protection Services. they did NOTHING. they know about the Bipolar disorder and the gun... and drugs. As far as the two that we took in, we are actually looking into going to court to get custody of them, I can't take the two younger ones, but they also don't want to leave... they are treated as royalty. The older two, step children, have both said, "I will NEVER go back there". So, Any suggestions about how to get the gun out of the house so the rest of the family, and ours (as I wouldn't put it past her to come try to hurt the kids or us)?

[subsonic]

You said the sister is being "beaten down physically" and emotionally. Has she in fact been physically beaten? Go to police dept/ a prosecutor and have her file a statement. If the prosecutor decides it constitutes felony child abuse, they'll file charges, revoke her permit and confiscate her firearm.

[Fallguy]

Being diagnosed with a mental illness doesn't not prevent someone from getting a HCP, not even being hospitalized for one, only if it was involuntary.

Even if her HCP was revoked, not sure what could be done about her still having it in the residence. So she would still have access to it and if was determined to do something, not having a HCP probably wouldn't make a difference.

All that said...39-17-1352(a)(3) says a HCP can be suspended or revoked if the person "Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public" I guess one could contact the Dept of Safety about any such person they felt posed that risk. Not sure what they would want to know exactly or what, if anything, might be done.

[mikegideon]

This is a job for the professionals. DHS maybe? Not saying they will do a better job of sorting it out. Just saying they are minors with legal guardians. The gun isn't the problem. It's the girl. If she's gonna harm the kids, she really doesn't need the gun.

[BrasilNuts]

Good luck taking those two kids out of the country by July. You'll have to jump through some hoops just getting them a passport since they are under age. Also, you will have to have signed papers by both parents stating that you have permission to take them... if I'm not mistaken.

Good luck and God bless you for taking care of those kids.

[Guest Sgt. Joe]

I have nothing to offer that would help you but I did want to say that I admire and respect your desire to try and help those kids. Our country could sure stand a few more people like yourself.

Thanks for caring when you didnt have to and the best of luck to you.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

archerdr1, you are a saint. God bless you. Very few would do what you are undertaking. I wish I knew what to

tell you.

[Pain103]

Unfortunately your fighting on an uphill battle. I see you said something about child protective services, are you talking about DCS? They would be the first step in filling a complain for an investigation. As far as the firearm even if she didn't have a HCP it's legal to have the firearm in her property as long as she isn't a felon. But if you wish to contact TDOS to voice your concerns over her having a HCP then you should contact them. Now her mental status if you believe she becomes to the point of threatening or attempting to hurt herself or others then she needs to be examined either voluntarily or involuntarily. A LEO has the power to under certain circumstances to involuntarily commit someone but they have to meet the criteria.

It sounds like you are a good person and are trying to right for others but until she crosses the lines she is able to do certain things as she pleases. Good luck and it doesn't hurt to contact DCS and see if a case worker has been assigned to that house and just have a chat with them. Voice your concerns and do what you can. Good luck

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Kudos for trying to do something good.

Can't give any useful advice. Worked at TDHS in the 1970's. Did some child abuse/neglect cases, but didn't work in the protective services dept, which am glad about because that job sucks.

You probably know this-- Due to confidentiality law, it is very unlikely that a case worker will give you any information. They would be breaking the the law to tell you anything about the case. You can supply them with info but it is unlikely that you will get any info back. They may not even confirm or deny that the case is being investigated. It only makes sense. If they were investigating you then you wouldn't want random neighbors to call the case worker and then the case worker blabs all yer business to your neighbors.

Back then they were not reluctant to grab kids and put em in foster care if there was good chance of abuse or neglect. Wonder if they are so covered up nowadays that they have to be selective because they don't have any place to put the kids?

That is something else to consider. I don't know what degrees of freedom the workers have. If they step in and grab the two younger kids, they may not take too kindly to you keeping the other two. They will often place kids with "likely reliable" close relatives, or foster care. Once they step in they can get in trouble and even go to jail if they let a kid get hurt by negligently not following policy. So policy might require taking the two older kids too, at least until you can establish a "good relationship" with the caseworker (or the caseworker's supervisor).

One final hint and I'll let it go-- If the workers have a "dead pan" or "cold fish" manner when you talk to them-- They are often trained to act that way, in order to avoid setting people off. If somebody is on the edge and you give em a big smile, they might think you are laughing at them. So if the odds are pretty high of meeting a lot of on-edge people, it doesn't pay to do much smiling, frowning, joking, or whatever. Just sayin, if you talk to a caseworker who seems oddly inhuman and dead-pan, then it is probably training rather than a very strange case worker (thought there are some of those as well).

[timcar86]

Not sure but doesn't someone have to move firearms out of their possession if they have an order of protection against them? That might be an option.

[Oh Shoot]

Not sure but doesn't someone have to move firearms out of their possession if they have an order of protection against them? That might be an option.

Let's see, if we just make it illegal for criminals and crazies to have guns they won't be able to .. oh wait...

- OS

[Guest archerdr1]

Good luck taking those two kids out of the country by July. You'll have to jump through some hoops just getting them a passport since they are under age. Also, you will have to have signed papers by both parents stating that you have permission to take them... if I'm not mistaken.

Good luck and God bless you for taking care of those kids.

I already have permission on the boy, getting the permission for the girl this week. Right now, I am in good graces with the father. Once I get temporary custody of them, the gloves come off. I hate to be underhanded in it, but if they know what we are planning, they will grab them both and leave and the kids will be back in danger.

[Guest archerdr1]

I have nothing to offer that would help you but I did want to say that I admire and respect your desire to try and help those kids. Our country could sure stand a few more people like yourself.

Thanks for caring when you didnt have to and the best of luck to you.

Thanks, We love these kids. I became a youth pastor because I wanted to help kids. I never expected or even hoped to take any into our family, but these two kids are in our home and they are now part of our family. I never had a daughter, so this is new ground for me. However, I will treat her just like she is my own daughter... all the way down to having a talk with anyone who dates her

[Guest archerdr1]

archerdr1, you are a saint. God bless you. Very few would do what you are undertaking. I wish I knew what to

tell you.

I just hope that I can share the love of Christ with them and they turn out to be a young man and young woman that serves God and others. I don't know how we are gonna do it all, but I do know that we are just gonna trust God to provide the finances and the energy... which are both things in limited supply

Thank you, and thanks all for the advice.

[Guest archerdr1]

Unfortunately your fighting on an uphill battle. I see you said something about child protective services, are you talking about DCS? They would be the first step in filling a complain for an investigation. As far as the firearm even if she didn't have a HCP it's legal to have the firearm in her property as long as she isn't a felon. But if you wish to contact TDOS to voice your concerns over her having a HCP then you should contact them. Now her mental status if you believe she becomes to the point of threatening or attempting to hurt herself or others then she needs to be examined either voluntarily or involuntarily. A LEO has the power to under certain circumstances to involuntarily commit someone but they have to meet the criteria.

It sounds like you are a good person and are trying to right for others but until she crosses the lines she is able to do certain things as she pleases. Good luck and it doesn't hurt to contact DCS and see if a case worker has been assigned to that house and just have a chat with them. Voice your concerns and do what you can. Good luck

We filed a complaint with DCS, we then filed a complaint with the Child Protective services as well. we had a meeting on the 27th and the lady, even though about 7 other people have called and filed after SEEING them being hit. I have a recording of her telling the daughter to "Get the F out of her house" SHe already kicked the 14 yr old boy out on the street in the rain. That in itself is negligence but the lady from DCS said, "We don't feel like there is abuse or negligence in this case, but there is the possibility of it happening if this continues without counseling. She said they weren't gonna do anything, so we are going around them and straight to family court. As far as the gun, I know the gun is not the problem, but her having a gun is a problem. SHe has already pulled it and put it against the dad's head b/c he was thinking about leaving her. That was about 2 yrs ago. He didn't file charges, and he is still with her.

[Guest archerdr1]

Not sure but doesn't someone have to move firearms out of their possession if they have an order of protection against them? That might be an option.

if we can get custody of them, we are gonna get an order of protection against her. And, I am going to be making it a point to tell the judge that she has a gun

That is something else to consider. I don't know what degrees of freedom the workers have. If they step in and grab the two younger kids, they may not take too kindly to you keeping the other two. They will often place kids with "likely reliable" close relatives, or foster care. Once they step in they can get in trouble and even go to jail if they let a kid get hurt by negligently not following policy. So policy might require taking the two older kids too, at least until you can establish a "good relationship" with the caseworker (or the caseworker's supervisor).

We have the two older ones, not the younger ones. They are treated well, the two older ones are the step children and are treated like Cinderella, only about 100 times worse.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi Archerdr1

Wish could offer better advice but haven't paid attention to the field for 35 years and maybe everything is not only changed, but changed many different times since I worked there.

Family court, I was gonna suggest that. Might be a good idea.

I don't know the TNDHS situation nowadays. They were a day late and a dollar short when I worked there and wouldn't be surprised if it has got worse since. Too many bad things happening and not enough workers to do anything about it. When I worked there if a family situation was bad but not "hopeless" or "completely dangerous" they would often try to do help and counseling to try to make things better and I suppose sometimes it worked.

Several things happened after I quit-- For one thing, there were several horrible cases of little babies tortured to death and such, so the legislature re-wrote the protective services law more draconian. For all I know the scandal/law change might have happened more than once since 1977. Haven't kept up.

I knew someone involved in a false allegation of abuse in the 1990 time frame. It appeared to me that the modus operandi had changed. Rather than looking for ways they might be able to help, the worker appeared to be trying to figure out if the person was guilty of a crime. Maybe I misunderstood what was going on, but looked like maybe the law had changed or the case load had got so big, that the main determination was whether or not they can put somebody in jail for a crime. If they decide they can't put somebody in jail, they leave the case open and idle for a few years until somebody finally finds a spare minute to make the file inactive and stuff it in a big dead file cabinet that can be re-opened if necessary later on.

Maybe it is entirely different, but that is the impression I got at that time. The dept has to follow the law and the law was re-written real strict. The dept's degrees of freedom in handling cases looked like had been limited by law and manpower issues. Consider that almost pure hearsay and maybe I'm full of BS even mentioning it. The workers don't make the law but they have to follow the law.

In the old days, maybe its the same now, one job of a front-line caseworker was to know about everybody in the area that can provide services, and what eash public and private agency specializes in. Evaluate the situation and if you can't do anything about it or you don't know what to do, you "tell them where to go". You refer the client to the agency most likely able to know how to help.

Maybe I'm telling granny how to suck eggs and you know more about it than me, in which case apologies. A good custody lawyer would be useful. In addition a private social worker with expertise in this kind of problem could help. I send these folks money occasionally but don't know anybody there from adam's cat, but in their line of business they've GOT to have at least one social worker that can either give advice, or "tell you where to go".--

Bethel Bible Village

http://www.bbv.org/w...amilies-crisis/

As far as I know, those folks are in exactly the kind of business you are trying to do here, and ought to be able to offer advice or referral.

Long ago human services had at least three depts. The general pool of social workers. Can't recall the name, maybe Family Services, but maybe the name has changed. Protective services who handled "emergency" cases children, old people, and feeble-minded adults mostly. Perhaps other niche groups. And a department which perhaps had the "cream of the crop" in capability that supervised adoptions and family evaluations for child custody. I'm guessing you will get to talk with those folks down the line, and when I was working there they were pretty good at what they did.

The adoptions dept (whatever the dept was named, might have been some other name) would get court orders from family court to investigate custody cases in front of the court. They would interview everybody and try to sort it out, and give the judge a report. Then it was the judge's decision whether to follow any recommendation in the report. Perhaps in some cases the worker would just report and make no recommendation. At that point the judge is the sole decider in chief and if he feels like it he can ignore all evidence and do any random thing he wants to. I'm not saying they do such a thing. Just that he's da man once it gets to that point.

There would be many situations where a granny would have a grudge against a son-in-law or whatever, and sue for custody, and then the worker would have to interview everybody in the family where they may be all crazy as bat-guano, and then recommend or report to the judge to decide how to cut the baby in half, solomon style.

You are correct, though. Unless you get some legal standing, the parents can decide to do anything they want and if you interfere they can put you in jail.

edit-- One other item. The police have a juvenile dept with their equivalent of social workers, can't recall the title. If the parents raise a legal ruckus, you might end up talking to one of those guys. They are generally very good fellas as best I can tell. Criminal kids are not the only ones that go thru that part of the system sometimes. They will probably try to help as good as any of the other people, but just like all those folks, they are bound by law.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Lester Weevils