My review of Tactical Response: Fighting Pistol

[Guest Paul Gomez]

Another take on the 'dropped gun' thing.

Have you ever practiced off hand only shooting? Why? B/C you might have been injured in the gun hand. When that happens, you just might drop your gun and have to recover it to use it. Learning how to do that, in advance, might be a good thing.

What happens when the cops show up to a 'Man w a gun' call? They might, if you are lucky, yell at you to drop the gun. Now is not the time to attempt to have a discussion about who you are. It is time to drop the gun. Mental baggage on this issue might not turn out well for you.

How does opening your hand and letting a gun fall necessitate its' pointing at someone? My grasp of Newtonian Physics isn't the greatest but you'll have to explain this one to me.

And, for the record, Tactical Response is not anti- any gun by virtue of its existence. They simply prefer guns that work consistently. The more complicated the design, the more it requires on the part of the user.

And, for the record, I do not work for the company. I have worked for the company in the past. I have known the owner for more than a decade. I think the FP class is one of the most solid two day, broad spectrum pistol classes around. It's not perfect but it's better than a lot of them.

[chances R]

First off, my comment was directed only with the issue of dropping one's gun, not with any other aspect of the training. Secondly, Paul, once you drop your gun, you have no control of where that muzzle will point, especially when it hits the ground. You don't have to understand Physics all that well to understand that the butt of the gun will most likely hit the ground first (it is heavier will a full mag) and most likely the muzzle will be pointed somewhere other than the ground. There is no guarantee whatsoever it won't muzzle something.....surely you can realize this is a possiblity. I think to purposefully drop a loaded firearm is simply uncalled for. Yes, one can train will blue guns, practice off-hand, as one should. I also understand one may have to drop a firearm, as ordered by police, or by accident, but that doesn't mean I need to crash my car to make sure my airbags work. I still think requiring civilian students to do this in training is irresponsible.......even though the remainder of the training may be excellent.

Edited April 11, 2012 by chances R

[Guest Primer]

Gomez is corrrect. When that Roll-a-dex in your brain is searching for an answer on 'dropped gun-WTF?'; you-the guy with a problem, now knows how to fix that problem. "I have seen this before and I know how to fix it."

[chances R]

Gomez is corrrect. When that Roll-a-dex in your brain is searching for an answer on 'dropped gun-WTF?'; you-the guy with a problem, now knows how to fix that problem. "I have seen this before and I know how to fix it."

And you have to practice with a loaded gun to do this? Maybe we need live rounds being fired at us to so we can file that in the Roll-a-dex as well.

[Mark A]

Pretty sure that dropping a gun 1 time in a class is not going to program an automatic response in the heat of the moment. You need multiple repetitions of this to make it become a habit. Thus, using a wood mock up or a blue training gun becomes ideal.

But, to be fair, there should be no realistic expectation of making anything you learn in one class automatic. The class should show the technique and then there should be a lot of practice at home to cement the lesson permanently in the old noggin.

But, to get back to the origins of this post; I'm glad the OP enjoyed the class and that learning occurred. If this inspires others to take classes there and learn then that is even better. Nothing else really matters.

Mark

[Lumber_Jack]

I carry a 1911 TRP it's not a safe queen and it does have finish wear, but of you told me to drop it intentionally I would tell you to go suck an egg.

If in a fighting situation I dropped it, fine, if a cop told me to drop it fine, it's just a tool but I find that kind of 'advanced prep' unnecessary. If I need to train retrieving the gun with my weak hand, why can't I just lay it on the ground?

I think this sounds like a good course with this one little exception. And thanks JohnnyFox for the review.

[Guest m14man]

First off, my comment was directed only with the issue of dropping one's gun, not with any other aspect of the training. Secondly, Paul, once you drop your gun, you have no control of where that muzzle will point, especially when it hits the ground. You don't have to understand Physics all that well to understand that the butt of the gun will most likely hit the ground first (it is heavier will a full mag) and most likely the muzzle will be pointed somewhere other than the ground. There is no guarantee whatsoever it won't muzzle something.....surely you can realize this is a possiblity. I think to purposefully drop a loaded firearm is simply uncalled for. Yes, one can train will blue guns, practice off-hand, as one should. I also understand one may have to drop a firearm, as ordered by police, or by accident, but that doesn't mean I need to crash my car to make sure my airbags work. I still think requiring civilian students to do this in training is irresponsible.......even though the remainder of the training may be excellent.

just a question if you drop a baseball and a bowling ball at the same time which one hits the ground first?

google is your friend if you dont know the answer.

[Mike]

Maybe we need live rounds being fired at us to so we can file that in the Roll-a-dex as well.

It certainly changes your perspective on things.

Mike

[Guest m14man]

It certainly changes your perspective on things.

Mike

it would change mine cause im sure id be running the other way.

[Reservoir Dog]

It certainly changes your perspective on things.

Yes, it does.

[Guest Primer]

the Tactical Wire, April 12, 2012; (at the bottom)

Skill Set:

Fundamentals of Movement

Tiger McKee (www. shootrite(dot)org)

Paragraph 5, "To avoid losing balance - - - - -"

Paragraph 6, "If you are going to fall - - - - - "

My real question is; Are you better prepared by being exposed to more and different situations? No shades of gray, just yes or no.

[Lumber_Jack]

just a question if you drop a baseball and a bowling ball at the same time which one hits the ground first?

google is your friend if you dont know the answer.

Your making assumptions that it was dropped freely. When fumbled from a shooting grip it will fall most often either muzzle down or grip down due to your fingered influencing the fall.

Plus if it did drop freely the grip would hit first because it's closer to the ground.

The point still remains that dropping a gun could muzzle your neighbor.

[Guest Paul Gomez]

Years ago, Andy Stanford and I were teaching a class in Texas. I threw my gun downrange. Several students were aghast. We had them drop their guns. One student was particularly nervous about this. He was shooting a longslide Springfield XD. Another older gentleman had been shooting a Les Baer Thunder Ranch. He chucked his 1911 downrange without a thought. On the next break, he came up to me and admitted that he had switched guns on the previous break [not knowing about the drill, simply wanting to run his other gun] and had not thrown his Les Baer downrange. The one he had thrown was his Wilson built by Bill Wilson! He wanted to throw his Les Baer downrange too. So we let him.

Oh, and BTW, a gun is more likely to discharge when dropped on its muzzle than on its side. Something about vectors of force.

[Guest Paul Gomez]

Let's be honest, guys. How many of you that are saying the 'dropping the gun' thing is the reason you won't train have ever actually engaged in training beyond your CHL?

[chances R]

Oh, and BTW, a gun is more likely to discharge when dropped on its muzzle than on its side. Something about vectors of force.

Then still not a good thing. Just FYI, last year I had 80 hours of formal training, at 3 separate classes. Have shot several IDPA matches, plus a bunch of practice, not to mention hunting and clays shooting......haven't dropped my gun once on purpose, by request, or by accident. Not going to start doing so voluntarily now. If asked to do so, I'll sit that part out, preferrably in a safe spot. Yet Paul, I respect your experience and resume, but can you still not admit it is possible for a gun, out of control, might muzzle someone? And the negilgent part of a professional instructor should be obvious if a ND occurred. One may choose to follow bad instructions blindly at work or play, but each can make up their on mind.

[Guest m14man]

Your making assumptions that it was dropped freely. When fumbled from a shooting grip it will fall most often either muzzle down or grip down due to your fingered influencing the fall.

Plus if it did drop freely the grip would hit first because it's closer to the ground.

The point still remains that dropping a gun could muzzle your neighbor.

You don't have to understand Physics all that well to understand that the butt of the gun will most likely hit the ground first (it is heavier will a full mag).

no assumptions made basic physics weight plays no part in gravity.

[Lumber_Jack]

no assumptions made basic physics weight plays no part in gravity.

We all understand that. Obviously you're assuming the gun was dropped in a vaccum with no outside influence.

Let's be honest, guys. How many of you that are saying the 'dropping the gun' thing is the reason you won't train have ever actually engaged in training beyond your CHL?

I don't see what that has to do with anything. If dropping a gun is considered training, I'm all trained up, I dropped one on Monday.

[Mike]

I think it's funny everyone is hung up on part of a drill that is fifteen seconds of a two day, 18 hour course. That, if you didn't want to participate, you aren't required to.

Mike

Edited April 12, 2012 by Mike

[Guest m14man]

We all understand that. Obviously you're assuming the gun was dropped in a vaccum with no outside influence.

I don't see what that has to do with anything. If dropping a gun is considered training, I'm all trained up, I dropped one on Monday.

nope, no vacuum required, im saying what ever position it was in when it left your hand it will stay there cause it doesnt have enough surface area for it to move verses the mass of the object even in a 20 mpg wind its not gonna spin unless you place a inertial force on the object and holding it out and letting it go it will free fall. i was pointing out in his post his reason for the gun falling hilt first or back first is that it is heavier there weight has no place in a free fall it doesnt matter if its 3 lbs or 10 lbs it falls at 9.8mps it will hit in which ever place you let it go if you hold it upside down it will hit slide first if you hold it with you hand in a shooting position and drop it will be hilt first dont believe me try it. if you spin it when you release it yes it will keep spining for some time but just holding it out and letting go it will just fall. anyway like it said dont want to do it then dont. its training, if you drop it dont reach for it, let it drop thats it. its to make sure everyone knows that before you do complicated shooting drills so you dont go grabing at it and then shoot some one, is it a risk? yes is driving you car a risk? yes, and its much more dangerous than droping a drop safe gun. id rather drop mine in standing in a line or by myself in a controlled enviroment than have some one drop one in a moving drill and try to catch it and shoot me. good review tho.

Edited April 12, 2012 by m14man

[Guest m14man]

excuse the punctuation im in a hurry.

[Lumber_Jack]

And still we digress. back to your regularly scheduled program.

[chances R]

Ah, heck....m14 you had to bring up one other thing that just compelled me to make another comment. A 'drop safe gun'. The manufacturers do their R&D to test and market such guns. I understand that these stock weapons of today are generally fail safe,

BUT, how many people attend classes with modified guns? Are you sure that every firearm brought to these classes haven't been modified by some less than capable 'smith'. Or by an owner who thinks he knows what he is doing? Again dealing with the general public opens everyone in attendance to that risk. Just sayin'......

[Guest m14man]

Ah, heck....m14 you had to bring up one other thing that just compelled me to make another comment. A 'drop safe gun'. The manufacturers do their R&D to test and market such guns. I understand that these stock weapons of today are generally fail safe,

BUT, how many people attend classes with modified guns? Are you sure that every firearm brought to these classes haven't been modified by some less than capable 'smith'. Or by an owner who thinks he knows what he is doing? Again dealing with the general public opens everyone in attendance to that risk. Just sayin'......

i do agree with that completely i personaly wouldnt want to stand by the 1911 guy or any one with an exposed hammer and no fire pin safety block. but it wouldnt bother me with a glock or m&p havent had a hk apart so not sure about that but anyway still a good review if i didnt agree i just wouldnt do it. id say i understsand if it falls i let it fall dont want to drop it for no reason thanks you.

[DMark]

Yeager........

In Before The Lock!