question about my planned build

[Guest fightin14]

I am fairly certain that I have all the legality's figured out so I won't ask those question. I am a relative noob as it comes to Ar's even though I have had one in the past (purchased complete upper and lower separately) but sold it for funds. I am wanting to build a SBR with a 9.5 inch barrel in 556. I am wanting to do this on a relative budget but not to the point that it will be junk. I will be building this rifle my self part by part over time. With that I will get to my questions. Is there any part/company that I should stay away from due to quality? Also do you guys/gals have any personal experiences with a quality budget SBR build? Parts lists? recommended vendors? Thanks for the help in advance.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Before you waste your time and frustration with the stamp crap, build it in a pistol. You said you were going

to take your time so that way you could really poke along without worrying about the legalities. When you're

ready to play with the ATF, you can put your stock closer to it. When they're done with you, maybe they'll

let you put it on. I'm no expert on the ATF, but there are plenty of folks around that I imagine will be around

shortly.

I'll let the others recommend the parts.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Why a 9.5" SBR in 5.56?

The 5.56 looses so much with a 9.5" barrel. I would look at a caliber better suited to a short barrel. I have used short abrreled guns in 5.56 and the blast and reduced range isn't worth it. If you plan on reloading I would look at the 300 BLK because it would be a great SBR caliber, there is even factory ammo now that is decent. I would also consider 6.8 or even 7.62x39 a better choice than a 5.56 in a 9.5 inch barrel.

personally I would say 14.5" would be the minimum for anything out to 200 yards. I know for a fact that 10.5" guns aren't really effective beyond 100 yards using standard FMJ type ammunition. You can extend the effective range a bit with quality ammo like TAP rounds which are polymer tipped rounds. Forget about 7.5" guns as they aren't much more than a 25 yard guns when using FMJ ammunition. The reason is there isn't enough velocity from the shorter barrels for the bullet to fragment upon impact and unless the bullet tumbles it will just pass right through making a nice, neat 1/4" hole.

Another consideration is if you ever plan on using a suppressor. Most companies will not warranty their suppressors on guns with less than 10.5" or ever 12.5 inches.

Blackthorne, Hessee and Vulcan are all junk. They are all the same company and have changed names to hide their crappy quality. I would pick a forged lower over a billet lower as well. And avoid cast at all costs but you are not going to find one without looking hard for one.

Dolomite

[1gewehr]

Unless you are determined to do this for the experience of building shot-barrelled firearm, I would recommend that you just buy a AR-pistol from a reputable manufacturer. If the funds are the issue, just save your money until you have enough.

The benefits are:

1) If you have problems (and short barrels are known for them), then you will have a manufacturers warrently to make it right.

2) A manufacturer should have parts of proven quality and durability versus having you find out otherwise on your own.

3) Buy a pistol first as you do not have to deal with the wait-time of NFA paperwork. You can always make it a Short-Barrelled Rifle later by filing the paperwork and tax.

4) If you find that you are not crazy about the really short barrels, you will not have wasted money on an NFA stamp.

5) If you end up selling it a a later date, a manufacturer's build is easier to sell than a home-built (and at a higher price).

Once you play with it enough to decide that you really DO want a SBR, then all you need to do is file the paperwork (and pay the $200). Once you have an approval, all you need to do is add the stock. Which usually is only a 10-minute job.

[scoutfsu]

I wouldn't go under 10.5

Generally, SBR's aren't done on the cheap. If thats the route you're going to take, then you will want to do it slowly and methodical. SBR's seem to have a higher incidence rate. It usually takes a little bit of work to get them running reliably. It's usually solved by playing with the buffer weight or sometimes the spring. Lately, some have been tweaking the gas port but I think that's beyond what you're wanting to mess with. For makers, your best bet is to stick with quality manufacturers. You pay for what you get. Disregard the cheap companies. They're cheap for a reason. If a company has a bad rep, it's almost always for a legitimate reason. Do your research and make sure you check reliable sources. There's a wealth of information in places like M4C.net and Arfcom. You just have to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Again, you pay for what you get. You can try and nickel and dime a cheap upper but I think you're going to land yourself into some pain and frustration given your limited exposure to ARs. Look into buying a complete upper (LMT comes to mind) on the used market. Pay attention to AR15.com's Equipment Exchange. Doing so will limit trouble shooting and potential problems.

For a lower, you go go two options:

1) Get a pistol lower. This will help in the fact that you can shoot your complete weapon to ensure reliability. When your stamp comes in (about a 6 month wait right now), then all you should have to do is change out the receiver extension and add a buttstock.

2) Buy a complete 16"+ rifle. Submit the F1 and enjoy your gun. You can also get your short upper. There are a couple schools of thought on doing so before the stamp. I would lean on the side of caution and store the upper at a friend/relatives house. When your stamp comes, go get the upper (or buy one) and slap it together. Having two uppers isn't a bad thing. Even though your lower is registered as an SBR, you can place the 16" upper on it and it returns it to temporary Title 1 status (if you ever take it out of state and don't feel like doing a 5320.20). 2 uppers just gives you a little bit more flexibility/options.

I wouldn't worry too much about buying it for the manufacturers warranty like Gewehr is talking about. Don't disregard what he is saying though. If you're unsure of monkeying around by building a lower, then your best bet is to probably buy a complete lower. If you do end up building it, use quality parts. There are few things more frustrating than having functional issues due to cheap parts. Then you end up spending more money buying what you needed the first time.

Pay attention to what Dolomite said about suppressors too. He was right about some companies not honoring a warranty with short barrels. The caveat to that is this; GOOD companies will warranty a short barrel (generally 10.3 and up). SureFire, AAC, Gemtech are a couple of those.

A final thought. SBR's are pretty awesome. However, if I were you, I would be hesitant to jump head first into the NFA game. You've already sold the one AR you had and you don't seem to know them 100%. If you ever decide to sell the SBR, you're out the $200 tax stamp. Almost everyone loses money when they sell their guns (unless they're dirtbags who take advantage of people in a time of crisis - even imagined crisis like '09's debacle). That $200 is like a second punch to the stomach.

[alwaysonjohn]

I would say for 5.56 that would be too short. Go with 300blkout and you'll be fine. I plan on going with a Spikes Tactical 10" with 9" SAR or I may get a 12" BAR to hide the suppressor.

The normal steps would be:

1. Purchase a NFA Trust from a TN lawyer ($250-$400). Remember you have to initially stick one thing in the trust.

2. get a normal lower. get it engraved with with your trust's name ($400?) Make sure you give the shop the details on NFA Rules on depth and locations.

3. Send your tax stamp off that your building a sbr. ($200) You should already know which upper you want to buy at this point.

4. Once your stamp comes back purchase your sbr upper and mate the two. (just know you may also have to pay a NFA Item Transfer fee from the shop you use, sometimes the transfer fee can be around $100)

The next time around it should be cheaper since you don't have to repurchase a trust. As others have said, resale on a NFA item is a bad idea because you WILL lose money, so make sure you pick items that you intend to keep until you have used them past their lifespan.

[scoutfsu]

Unless you're doing a Form 4 from a shop, you don't have to pay them anything. They are in no way involved in the process he's talking about.

Get your lower engraved by people who know what they're doing. Orion Arms (they've done all mine) and Ident are the two big names. It is not expensive - something like $45

A trust is/can be a beneficial thing. It allows you to avoid waiting on your CLEO, paying to get fingerprints done, etc. If you are planning on getting more than 1 NFA item, you have others that you want to legally be able to have/shoot your stuff when you're not around, or you're looking to eventually pass it down to your kids, a trust is the way to go. It is initially more expensive but for me, the pros heavily outweigh the cons.

Remember, the only thing that is actually an NFA item on the AR FOW is the lower receiver.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would say for 5.56 that would be too short. Go with 300blkout and you'll be fine. I plan on going with a Spikes Tactical 10" with 9" SAR or I may get a 12" BAR to hide the suppressor.

The normal steps would be:

1. Purchase a NFA Trust from a TN lawyer ($250-$400). Remember you have to initially stick one thing in the trust.

A trust is not required. You can submit your own Form 1 and build the SBR yourself saving the cost of a trust.

2. get a normal lower. get it engraved with with your trust's name ($400?) Make sure you give the shop the details on NFA Rules on depth and locations.

Engraving doesn't cost $400. All you need to do is engrave it with the name of the person changing it from a title 1 firearm to a NFA item. And until your approved form is in your hand the gun is just a regular title 1 firearm. After your form comes back approved the firearm is now a NFA item and you need to follow the same rules for any other NFA item. Just to reiterate if the approved form isn't in your hand it is just a regular gun.

3. Send your tax stamp off that your building a sbr. ($200) You should already know which upper you want to buy at this point.

You don't send off a tax stamp, you get a tax stamp. You send off a Form 1 if building it yourself or if buying from a manufacturer it should be on a Form 4. And it is easier to have your firearm engraved before you have the approval in hand.

4. Once your stamp comes back purchase your sbr upper and mate the two. (just know you may also have to pay a NFA Item Transfer fee from the shop you use, sometimes the transfer fee can be around $100)

You don't have to pay a transfer on a upper. And the lower does not need to be transferred from the engraver. You ship the lower to the engraver they mail it directly back to you like a repair without going through an FFL. Additionally, if you are buying a SBR lower from a manufacturer they will not ship just the lower, it must be in rifle configuration before being shipped.

The next time around it should be cheaper since you don't have to repurchase a trust. As others have said, resale on a NFA item is a bad idea because you WILL lose money, so make sure you pick items that you intend to keep until you have used them past their lifespan.

It is not any cheaper with a trust, just more convienent because you don't need LE signatures, photos or fingerprint cards. Even with a trust you still have to pay $200 for each NFA item you buy or make. Another advantage is you can add friends to the trust so they can use the NFA items as well without you present. And just so people know if a NFA holder dies all their NFA items can be transferred, free of charge, to an heir. It is done on a Form 5.

Regardless of whether it is done on a Form 1 or transferred on a Form 4 the cost for approval is $200. But you may have to pay additional transfer fees from the FFL if the NFA item is being transferred in. There are no tranfer fees if building it on a Form 1.

For me I debated on getting everything on a trust. For me the added cost and hassle of a trust was not warranted. We are a must sign state so that advantage is not needed. And when I die my wife will probably just turn the items in.

I built my suppressor on a Form 1. I took my tube to a jewelery shop to be engraved before it was threaded and before the form was in my hand. After I had my form in hand I finished the build. Same thing will happen for any other NFA item I build. It will be on a form 1 and any engraving will be done before I have the form in hand to make life easier.

The requirement for engraving is the lettering be .030" deep and 1/16th inch tall. Most jewelery shops can do that, especially on aluminum. And to give a reference if you can catch a fingernail on it the engraving it is generally deep enough. On most AR's the engraving is magnitudes deeper than it needs to be. And just to remind any of you that might use a jeweler to engrave. They must either have an FFL or you must stay with the serialized part. You cannot legally leave a serialized part with a jeweler to be engraved unless they have an FFL.

And finally if you want the advantage of having a using a suppressor with a SBR without having to pay for it do what I did. Cut the barrel down 10" then add a 6.5" tube to the barrel bringing the length back to a legal 16.5". The tube is large enough in diameter for my suppressor to go inside so now I can use my suppressor with a minimal amount of additional length. Before the barrel with supprssor was 24" but now it is 18" with the suppressor because most of the suppressor is inside the tube. I did need to weld the tube the the barrel ot make it "permanent" in the eyes of the ATF.

Dolomite

Edited April 8, 2012 by Dolomite_supafly