SB3002 and how it affects campuses

[JRB]

I've been following the progress of SB3002 as closely as I can and since I work at a university it has become an issue here. I work at a private university and there is a organization of private Tennessee universities of which their president has drafted a letter that was sent out to all of the members (mainly university presidents), ours included. The letter strongly opposes SB3002 and urges the letter be sent to campus employees, as it was at our university.

So naturally that has sparked a big conversation among the employees and community. I have tried to clarify as much as I can, but I have some other questions I need to clear up.

This is what I've been pointing out so far, correct me if I'm wrong, please:

• The first point is that the bill only applies to stowing the weapon in the car. You still cannot, under any circumstances, take the gun out of the car.
  
• The point of the bill is not to "make businesses (or campuses) safer" but to allow permit holders and hunters a means to keep their weapon with them, safely, on their daily commute, at any point along the way they may have a need for their weapon
  

The other points I'm taking from the bill summary:

• Generally, present law (TCA section 39-17-1309)prohibits the possession or carrying of a firearm on school property. Present law provides that this prohibition does not apply to a nonstudent adult who possesses a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property; this bill removes this provision.
  
• It should be noted that another present law provision (TCA section 49-6-3401) prohibits the possession of a firearm by a student on school property; such a law is required by federal law under the Gun-Free Schools Act. That Act has an exemption for a firearm that is lawfully stored inside a locked vehicle on school property,
  
• Also, under the federal Gun Free School Zone Act it is generally a federal crime to knowingly bring a gun within 1,000 feet of a school. Federal law does contain certain exceptions, one being that the prohibition does not apply of the person is lawfully licensed to carry a firearm under the law of the state where the school is located. Another exemption is for a unloaded firearm in a locked container or locked gun rack.
  

According to these points, isn't keeping your weapon (as an employee) stowed in your vehicle, on campus already permitted? As I understand, the new bill would then add the restriction that you must be a licensed permit holder or have a hunting license. It also, as I read, extends to students and visitors. That's my big question though, would a 21 year old permit holding student be able to keep his/her firearm in the trunk of their car, student being the main issue there. Working here and knowing some of the 21 year olds that I do, as well as thinking back to when I was that age, worries me.

Also, I've been told that it's only legal to have your firearm if you are picking up or dropping someone off of campus. I haven't found the law for that yet though, nor is it mentioned in the SB3002 bill summary. Can anyone point me to it or how the new bill will affect that law, if it does?

Edited April 2, 2012 by JRB

[Guest profgunner]

I am a professor (we are not all left-wingnuts) at a large public university in Tennesee. My best advise: read the statutes. There is some wiggle room in "intent to go armed". My take is that if you are a faculty member at a state institution, you can leave your weapon in your car provided 1.) you don't handle it while on campus or allow another to handle it, and 2.) you unload it and put the ammo somewhere removed from the location of the firearm (this is not stated explicitly in the statute but it sure negates any argument that you "intended to go armed".

[Oh Shoot]

... My take is that if you are a faculty member at a state institution, you can leave your weapon in your car ...

Actually, "non-student adult".

The diff is, I can do it and not get fired if found out like faculty or staff.

- OS

[Guest profgunner]

Actually, "non-student adult".

The diff is, I can do it and not get fired if found out like faculty or staff.

- OS

Well as a faculty member who is not a student, I certainly fit the description as "non-student adult". This description would also apply to most of the staff. As long as you are an adult and not a student, you should be OK. I stress again, however, that there is wiggle room in the statute. I would definitely separate the gun from the ammo so as an "intent to go armed" charge would be very hard to prove.

[Oh Shoot]

Well as a faculty member who is not a student, I certainly fit the description as "non-student adult". This description would also apply to most of the staff. As long as you are an adult and not a student, you should be OK. I stress again, however, that there is wiggle room in the statute. I would definitely separate the gun from the ammo so as an "intent to go armed" charge would be very hard to prove.

Correct, the allowance of storing weapons in vehicle on school property does not allow such with "intent to go armed", which of course a loaded weapon is generally considered to be the main criterion.

However, my further point was that faculty and staff can still be fired for it, even it no law was broken. I know it was a listed offense for termination when I was on staff at UTK, assume it's same for faculty, even tenured I'd imagine? Of course, of the 30 or so no no's, I once figured that over my 21 year stint, I had broken most all of them, except a couple I didn't fully understand, so probably broke those also. Always comes down to whether they want to sting you or not.

- OS

[JRB]

So I guess the part about only being able to have a gun in your car if you're picking up or dropping off is false? Is there an origin to that, or where one law overrides another?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I don't see how picking up or dropping off would be a violation.

[Fallguy]

In places where it may already be "legal" to have your firearm in your car, this bill is to prevent an employer from doing anything to affect your employment because you may have a firearm in your vehicle.

[Fallguy]

So I guess the part about only being able to have a gun in your car if you're picking up or dropping off is false? Is there an origin to that, or where one law overrides another?

There are more defenses to have a weapon on school property than just dropping off and picking up, they are in 39-17-1310, but that is the only one that would really apply to HCP holders.

The exception in 39-17-1309©(1) only applies in situations where the person does not have an "intent to go armed". There is lots of debate as to what that means exactly...

[Guest profgunner]

However, my further point was that faculty and staff can still be fired for it, even it no law was broken.

OS. I consulted an attorney on this and was told the statute does apply to the state schools, and they would have one hell of a time firing a "non-student" adult harboring an unloaded firearm in their vehicle. All bets are off at the private schools, as they can set their own rules.

[babelt]

What about students? I go to ETSU and commute from Greeneville and hate leaving my gun at home.

[Fallguy]

What about students? I go to ETSU and commute from Greeneville and hate leaving my gun at home.

The biggest problem is TN law doesn't make a difference (at least in this case) between K-12 schools and colleges and universities.

Till then I don't see them ever allowing students to have firearm on the grounds, even in their car.

…and maybe not even then.

[Guest profgunner]

What about students? I go to ETSU and commute from Greeneville and hate leaving my gun at home.

Read the statute. Are you a "non-student adult"?

[Oh Shoot]

So I guess the part about only being able to have a gun in your car if you're picking up or dropping off is false? Is there an origin to that, or where one law overrides another?

Separate defense. One is as it says, for picking up and dropping off passengers, the other is for storing gun whether you are in vehicle or not.

If you have a permit, you can do the first with loaded gun; the storage is for any non-student adult and almost certainly is intended for unloaded weapon.

OS. I consulted an attorney on this and was told the statute does apply to the state schools, and they would have one hell of a time firing a "non-student" adult harboring an unloaded firearm in their vehicle. All bets are off at the private schools, as they can set their own rules.

Well, look at your employee's handbook. Whether it would take "one hell" of an effort or not, I dunno. Certainly staff were fired while I was there for breaking various of the many things listed as grounds for termination, but of course, as I said, generally when they were already looking for a reason, except for some obvious biggies like major theft or something.

I also don't know if tenured status for profs changes things significantly in these regards or not.

I also don't know just how different, except by policy, a state university is from a plain private biz as far as the "employment at will" thing in TN. UT generally has a "no layoff" policy for example, UNLESS positions are simply de-funded by the legislature. Which is what happened to me -- I was one of two folks in whole state system with a certain job title, a title that actually had been created just FOR me by an audit. But by a combination of internal politics and budget cutting, I also became an easy target, too, double edged sword.

And by the way, a friend high in HR told me shortly before this happened, much the same, that "they'd play hell zapping YOU of all people". She was wrong.

- OS

Edited April 4, 2012 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

Separate defense. One is as it says, for picking up and dropping off passengers, the other is for storing gun whether you are in vehicle or not.

If you have a permit, you can do the first with loaded gun; the storage is for any non-student adult and almost certainly is intended for unloaded weapon

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure it has to be unloaded.

Having a HCP is a defense to the "intent to go armed" so couldn't that mean if you had a HCP you would fall under sub-section c and not b?

Also in the AG opinion about schools using a park, he says a HCP holder could store their firearm in their vehicle and he doesn't mention it having to be unloaded.

Thoughts....

[Oh Shoot]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure it has to be unloaded.

I've pondered and think just the opposite, for two reasons:

1. For the "going armed" paragraph, there is NO mention of being able to store gun. "Going armed" = "loaded"

2. For legally stashing it as an "non-student adult" there is no mention of going armed (loaded) AND there is no mention of HCP, so would have to be stored as per someone without HCP, which again means unloaded.

Unless you want argue that even though you'd be guilty of unlawful carry (for loaded gun in vehicle without HCP) but yet still be innocent of violating school statute by doing same on school property.

- OS

Edited April 5, 2012 by OhShoot

[babelt]

Read the statute. Are you a "non-student adult"?

I read the damn thing, just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was missing.

[Fallguy]

I've pondered and think just the opposite, for two reasons:

1. For the "going armed" paragraph, there is NO mention of being able to store gun. "Going armed" = "loaded"

2. For legally stashing it as an "non-student adult" there is no mention of going armed (loaded) AND there is no mention of HCP, so would have to be stored as per someone without HCP, which again means unloaded.

Unless you want argue that even though you'd be guilty of unlawful carry (for loaded gun in vehicle without HCP) but yet still be innocent of violating school statute by doing same on school property.

- OS

Ok, ok....

Actually nowhere than I can find says "loaded equals" "intent to go armed". If you have the intend to go armed, doesn't that pretty much mean you have to be in actual possession of the firearm and not have it "stowed" somewhere? Because if having a firearm in your car meant the same as being in possession of it, then many of us violate the law every time we leave it in our vehicle and some location that is off-limits by law.

I'm not sure, but I think school law was on the books before the HCP law so that could be why it doesn't mention HCPs, but as I said before if you have a HCP, you have a defense to the intent to go armed.

Also what about the AG opinion? http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2009/op/op129.pdf He doesn't say the firearm has to be unloaded. I guess one could assume that, but sometimes it's hard enough to read them period, let alone assuming anything...lol

There have been bills in the past that would clear this up by fixing 39-17-1309 and defining "intent to go armed" but like most firearms bills....never have done well....

[Guest profgunner]

I read the damn thing, just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was missing.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a smartass! Peace, bro!

[Oh Shoot]

...I'm not sure, but I think school law was on the books before the HCP law so that could be why it doesn't mention HCPs, ..

Which if true further reinforces idea that intent was unloaded, since normal citizens couldn't have loaded guns in cars at all then.

but as I said before if you have a HCP, you have a defense to the intent to go armed.

Yes, but the charge in question is not a: "intent to go armed" (actually, illegal carry or possession), but b:Carrying Weapon On School Property.

Way laws read, depending on HCP status and loaded/unloaded status of gun, you could be guilty of both, innocent of both, or innocent of a: but guilty of b:

- OS

[Fallguy]

Well all I say is I'll continue to do what I've done because I've not had any issues....(yet at least)

[Oh Shoot]

Well all I say is I'll continue to do what I've done because I've not had any issues....(yet at least)

Yeah, I try not to advise -- or tell.

- OS

[JRB]

The biggest problem is TN law doesn't make a difference (at least in this case) between K-12 schools and colleges and universities.

Till then I don't see them ever allowing students to have firearm on the grounds, even in their car.

…and maybe not even then.

I don't see the non-student adult wording in the new bill (SB3002) and the bill removes the 39-17-1309 provision that does use that wording. So if the new bill passes, does that open it up for students to stow in their car?

[Guest 270win]

Intent to go armed is using a weapon for offense or defense. You could have an unloaded gun on the seat but ammo next to it and then possibly have intent to go armed.

[Oh Shoot]

Intent to go armed is using a weapon for offense or defense. You could have an unloaded gun on the seat but ammo next to it and then possibly have intent to go armed.

Correct: definition of "unloaded" in TN law does NOT specify that only gun itself was unloaded.

- OS