To trim or not to trim...

[Guest dotsun]

Hey guys,

I am getting into reloading .223 for my AR and I have a question about the brass length. This is once fired brass that I'll only be using for range fodder. My case lengths after resizing are running a bit over the recommended lengths listed in my Nosler manual. To be exact, the manual lists the length at 1.76" and my cases are around 1.775".

Is this something to be concerned with bearing in mind that this is plinking ammo, or could this potentially cause an unsafe condition? What say you, do you trim after 1 firing?

[Guest Crunchman]

Shooting in an AR, you are limited to the length that will feed out of your mags. That will more than likely keep you from getting long enough to jam into the lands, possibly creating an over-pressure situation. I keep my AR brass trimmed to 1.760 with an COAL of not more than 2.250 as per the Sierra manual for the 55gr. FMJBT. Seems to do fine in my S&W MP15A and pretty dang accurate, too.

[Rightwinger]

trim it to spec. You can't go wrong there. Once you start trimming start looking for signs of stretching in the case mouth and neck area. If you have the ability to section a case every couple of loadings, do so. It will let you see whats going on inside.

[Guest dotsun]

Thanks for the feedback, so my next question is where to get a brass trimmer for .223 that doesn't require a vise or a ton of money. Midway was out of everything under 60 bucks for case trimming when I checked today.

[Guest Crunchman]

Check at Grafs, Mid South Shooters Supply, etc. I've noticed that Midway is out of stock of a lot of the "economy" items.

[Rightwinger]

Best budget trimmer for the money, Lee. You can use the ball and just twist trim (gets tiresome after about 50 cases) or you can mount it to a cordless drill and let it do the spinning. The case trimmers are caliber specific and the end goes through your primer hole to line it up correctly and set the depth to the correct length every time.

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1209431512.3897=/html/catalog/casecon.html

I recommend you do not get the Zip trimmer. I have one I'll give to you if you want to drive all the way up here to get it. Its basically a cord driven spinner and the idea is great but at least the one I got is not centered correctly and won't spin in a perfect circle.

Get the cutter ball, the lock stud and cutter, the chamfer tool (cleans up the inside and outside edges) and the case length gauge for about 20 bucks. I would also get the primer pocket cleaner while your there.

The universal decapping die is also nice for preworking your brass. I decap everthing that's shot and tumble them deprimed so you get some cleaning in the pocket with your media. You can deprime most calibers without taking the die of your press and then go have lunch while its all cleaning itself.

[Guest dotsun]

Check at Grafs, Mid South Shooters Supply, etc. I've noticed that Midway is out of stock of a lot of the "economy" items.

I forgot all about Mid South, I ordered this:

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000157862210

[Guest dotsun]

Best budget trimmer for the money, Lee. You can use the ball and just twist trim (gets tiresome after about 50 cases) or you can mount it to a cordless drill and let it do the spinning. The case trimmers are caliber specific and the end goes through your primer hole to line it up correctly and set the depth to the correct length every time.

http://leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1209431512.3897=/html/catalog/casecon.html

I recommend you do not get the Zip trimmer. I have one I'll give to you if you want to drive all the way up here to get it. Its basically a cord driven spinner and the idea is great but at least the one I got is not centered correctly and won't spin in a perfect circle.

Get the cutter ball, the lock stud and cutter, the chamfer tool (cleans up the inside and outside edges) and the case length gauge for about 20 bucks. I would also get the primer pocket cleaner while your there.

The universal decapping die is also nice for preworking your brass. I decap everthing that's shot and tumble them deprimed so you get some cleaning in the pocket with your media. You can deprime most calibers without taking the die of your press and then go have lunch while its all cleaning itself.

Doh, guess I coulda saved some money if I'd seen this before I ordered. Oh well, the one I got looks pretty decent. (Like I'm an expert on case trimming) I'll let you guys know how it works when I get my hands on it.

Oh and thanks a ton guys for saving me from killing myself reloading cases that are too long.

[John Wall]

The Lee trimmer can be chucked in a drill, and does a good job. I don't trim once fired brass, but after I load it once, it is time to trim. The 223 is a high pressure load in a tapered hull, and it likes to stretch.

Fortunately, the AR platform is easy on brass. It IS, however, hard on loaded ammo. Use canellured bullets, and I have found the Lee Factory Crimp die to be the best for the purpose. The Lee die is very tolerant of differing case lengths. This requires a separate operation, but one can use the Lee turret press. Lee has good setups for reloading. Not everyone needs a progressive press (at first).

For longer case life, get a Redding Competition shell holder set and once you find the right shell holder, your brass life will increase and so will accuracy. Continually setting the shoulder back to minimum dimensions will shorten case life and could cause ignition problems, even case separations.

Most AR's take the +.004" shell holder.

I like Accurate Arms 2230 in the 20" barrel with the 55 gr bullet. Accurate Arms 2015 will give less muzzle flash in the 16" barrel with the same bullet weight. I have found Accurate Arms 2520 King of the Hill with the heavier bullets in the AR.

Make sure you have a good understanding of how to safely reload ammo for your Patrol Rifle. Clean primer pockets prevent high primers. High primers are NOT desirable in any auto loading rifle!

[Guest dotsun]

Good info, thanks John. I've been loading pistol for years, but with the cheap mil surplus rifle ammo it just wasn't worth the hassle to load it for me until here recently. I'm not terribly concerned with moa or anything, If I match wolf accuracy I'll be happy. I know, I set the bar high.

[Guest Mugster]

The first time you load for an autoloading rifle, make sure you check for bullet setback on the feed ramp. I'd recommend pulling a few from the chamber during firing and mic'ing them at the range. Handguns just do not put that kind of jolt on the round being driven home. I second the notion of the lee FCD, best thing since sliced bread.

Wall gives good advice IMO. I reread his post and agree with all of it. I'd recommend using CCI 5.56mm or wolf primers as well. They are a bit tougher and can help resist a slamfire.

Reloading for an armalite is not rocket science, but alot of experienced reloaders have kaboomed one.

+1 for 2230 in 55gr...i like varget for heavier bullets but its a pain

Edited April 29, 2008 by Mugster
more info...yet another edit

[Guest dotsun]

Well, I already have winchester primers and I think AA 1670 powder. So I'm down that stream too far to change paddles. I will keep an eye on my first reloads, I thought I might load 10 or so to start with and make sure they work before I load up 1K.

[Rightwinger]

Thats the ticket Dotsun. Load just above the minimum charge, load only about 10, KEEP NOTES. I would suggest buying mailing labels at Office Max or something like it and write your loading data on the label then stick it in the shell box. Include the date! Copy the same stuff in a notebook. That way if its working well you can creep up for velocity vs accuracy and get the best loadings for your rifle.

Hand feed some loadings one at a time through the chamber. You may want to waste a case and bullet as a dummy round to check what you think you have as a recipie. Look for scratches, set back, and extraction. When you shoot ARs, pressure signs are key to preventing kaboom. Flattend primers and cases hanging in the chamber are big warnings that something is very wrong.

All that said. I have been reloading for about 2 years, loaded three calibers for ARs in .204 Ruger, .223 and .458 and no issues just using and reading the data.

If you have reloaded pistol rounds then this will not be a problem!

[Guest dotsun]

Yeah I'm sure I'll be fine, I'm just not used to having to trim brass. I've got 9mm down to a mass production science. Now if I could figure out WTH my 1911 doesn't like my .45 loads I'd be a reloading machine.

[Rightwinger]

That's weird. Mine loves everything I have put through it. Even some HP that had a hollow measuring .39 ! Really weird looking rounds!. No issues. What powder you using? I like the Bullseye for .45

[John Wall]

Dear Dotsun

AA1680 is made for the 7.62 Soviet round, and you will be giving up about three hundred fps on this powder. It is fast enough to be suitable in some magnum handgun loads. Watch for pressure spikes.

WSR primers will work well. MAKE SURE your primer pockets are clean and the primers are BELOW FLUSH with the case head. I do prefer the CCI primers and military brass in my Patrol Rifle.

As for your 45, if you are using wadcutters and having failures-to-feed, load them so the full diameter edge of the bullet is about .050" out of the case. IIRC, 1.250" will work with most 200 gr bullets.

Personally, I have gone to the 45 Colt's 200 gr RNFP Cowboy bullet for my Auto, and crimp just above the lube groove. These bullets will shoot as well as anything out there, and are UTTERLY RELIABLE.

If you are having failures-to-chamber, get a Lee Factory Crimp die. As was said above, best thing since sliced bread!

If this does not cover your 1911 stoppages, let us know what your critter is not doing. Feeding the 1911 beast is NOT rocket science. LOL

[Guest dotsun]

No wadcutters, they're fmj in front of bullseye powder. I load them just like the wwb that feeds fine in the gun. I'm getting 3 point jams with my loads in it.

[Guest Mugster]

No wadcutters, they're fmj in front of bullseye powder. I load them just like the wwb that feeds fine in the gun. I'm getting 3 point jams with my loads in it.

If you can chamber the loaded rounds ok by locking the slide and dropping them into the chamber through the ejection port and the OAL is spot on WWB, and the bullet is not setting back on you when it hits the feed ramp...

Are you using a minimum charge of powder? If you have a 1911 with a heavy spring in it or one of the shorter barreled versions, you may need more umph to work the action right. Military ball spec is 830 fps +/- a little at 5' from the muzzle...which is really a pretty mild .45 acp loading. Most of the walmart plinking grade 230 grain ball runs around 780-810 on my chrono for reference. The CCI is usually a little hotter.

I like accurate #5 in .45 auto. Its dirty, but I get really good results with it velocity wise. I can duplicate most +p factory loadings by staying well under the listed charge maximums.

[Guest dotsun]

I don't think it's the charge, I can feel a difference in them when chambering a round. Instead of the smooth chambering of the WWB, it makes a distinct cha-chunk sound like the round's trying to 3 point jam. It may be that I need to crimp these as the only difference I can see between the two rounds is there's a slight lip where my cases aren't crimped. Oddly though, when they jam when firing, there's a nice shiny flatter spot on the bullet itself where it impacted the top of the chamber.

[Guest Mugster]

Oh yeah, you should be crimping them. Without a crimp, I dunno how you can chamber them during firing without the bullet jamming down onto the powder. FMJ I put a heavy crimp on. I use a medium'ish on plated stuff and lead. Basically, I dial down the crimp tool until i get zero setback on the weaker stuff.

setback: Mic the OAL of the round. Chamber it normally. Mic it again. If it is exactly the same, you had no setback on it.

Test the setback during firing as well. The action cycles much more violoently.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Mugster
more info

[Guest dotsun]

I should probably clarify a bit, I do end up crimping the .45's with my rcbs dies but they don't seem to do a great job of it. I've never had to crimp 9mm's, though as I've found that I can completely skip belling the mouth and just force the 9mm's down into the case and it's crimped enough from resizing to keep the bullet from any thoughts of setback. I have had to bell the mouth of the .45's a tad though and I've tried crimping them back to take that bell out with rcbs dies, but there's still a little lip on them. That's why I thought I might try the Lee crimping dye you mentioned earlier.

[Guest Mugster]

Ah, I see your technique, and thats not a bad idea. You probably need more pressure on the bullet in .45 acp.

I usually bell and then crimp with handgun. On a single stage press I can't get em started otherwise.

Get an FCD die. You won't be disappointed. I've noticed with .45acp that i have to push deformation of the bullet with lead/plated stuff to stop it from moving on me. The FMJ is tough enough I just "hit it with a bigger hammer" and be done with it.

[Guest dotsun]

Update: Well good news, I loaded up 10 .223's and they performed flawlessly. I even have all my fingers and toes after shooting. I got the Forster case trimmer in oh about a month ago and it works great. The rounds seemed a little light on the recoil side, but I stayed on the low end of the scale as I intend to make these for plinking only. I ended up loading 100 more with the same recipe this week since all was good.

[Guest Mugster]

Hey, thats great!

Its a good feeling when "THE PLAN" comes together.