RFC: unleashed dog, toddler, and a lowes parking lot ...

[Guest ricks]

I don't post much, but like to lurk. I'm posting this as a Request For Comment, because i'm torn over my actions this past weekend.

My twin boys, 18 months, and the wife were with me at Lowes over the weekend. We were exiting the building, half way down the parking lot aisle and still 10-12 paces from the vehicle. My wife is walking with son one on her left about two paces behind me while I am walking with son 2 on my right.

About 25 feet away (3-4 car parking spots) to our left a truck door opens and a large'ish dog (bigger than a border collie, smaller than a great dane is really all I can think of to describe it) bolts and is running directly at the son I am walking with. It is not a rot or pit or any other breed that makes me think potentially triggered agressive. It covers this space in a split second (it seemed like) and is still going directly towards the son on my right. I move in front of my son with my left arm up, my wife spins and picks up the son she was walking with. One of the owners of the dog shouts "it's OK" and when the dog is maybe 3 feet from me it turns and runs towards the store with the two owners chasing behind it and apologizing as they pass.

I've thought a lot about it since Saturday and i'm mad at myself and confused and annoyed and happy nothing happened and all kinds of feelings.

I feel like maybe I should have picked up my son like the wife did. I feel like I should have gotten in better defensive position like crowching or something. I grew up with a friend who had a pretty nasty scar on his face from a split second encounter with a neighborhood dog who was "friendly and never bit anyone". what could I have done differently? Now that the boys are able to walk by themselves we plan on walking a lot this fall/summer/spring and i'm sure strange dogs will approach and could approach aggressively. What is best practice defensively?

[TMF]

Pick them up. I was at a playground a few weeks ago and some POS lets his 90lb pitbull off lead to relieve itself on the equipment. I scooped my son up and called the PD to come talk to the guy. The dog didn't make any moves toward my son before I snatched him up, but if he had I would have aggressively went after the dog. Dogs will blow off curiosity to react to a threat, which will normally be to flee.

Dogs are unpredictable creatures, and as much as I hear people say "oh he's great with kids" I get so annoyed. The dog might be great with YOUR kids, but he might bite mine in the face. I would never just let my dogs run loose around small children they don't know. In your situation I would pick him up and yelled aggressively at the dog. That would have covered all the bases.

[maddog909]

Pepper spray ....... Like you I hear this all the time "oh he won't bite" After being chomped by a german shepard " that would never bite" I take the phrase as meaningless.

[personDJ]

steping in front of your son protected hin and allowed your hands free to deal with the dog. we really don't know what we may do but this time I believe I would have wanted my hands free. Trust yourself. you did good.

I also believe your wife did as she should have. Great team work.

As you, I don't post much but like to wonder arround.

[Smith]

Pick your kid up and a good swift kick right under the chin will stop most of them. For the rest, well, that's why we carry.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Smith

[Guest Broomhead]

With my daughter, and my height, I would have scooped her up to a safe height leaving my legs free to kick at the dog if need be. A hard knee to the muzzle or a kick to the chest/abdomen will definitly make a dog think twice about continuing it's efforts. Your legs are stronger than your arms and a kick is much more devestating than a punch. I have thwarted a dog like this before. Just my opinion and experience.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Broomhead

[Guest Wildogre]

Good techniques work… bad ones do not. What you did worked.

The way I read it the dog came at you. Fight or flight kicked in. In a few milliseconds you judged the speed and trajectory of the dog, considered several courses of action did a quick analysis and acted.

Your wife who was not in the direct trajectory of the dog did the same thing.

You chose fight, she chose flight. Both of you acted to protect your kids. She by turning and placing her body between one kid and the dog and prepping to run, you by stepping forward and preparing to fight. It turned out well.

I agree that picking them up is best if you are planning to run. If you are going to fight then I am not so sure.

The key is to talk about it and have a plan or two and practice the plan.

PS good choice on the pistols.

[LagerHead]

You reacted in an attempt to protect your son. You did good. Don't beat yourself up because you didn't take a certain action. You acted. That's half the battle.

[Guest PapaB]

I'd say you did fine. It doesn't sound like you were caught off guard so you had proper situational awareness. Your wife did great, she protected the child with her. You, on the other hand, were protecting both of your sons and your wife. Your reaction was fine under the circumstances. Crouching would have been a bad idea, a dog can knock you off balance in that position. Standing lets you protect, attack or flee as the situation evolves.

Take your wife out for a romantic "appreciation" dinner, she proved herself to be a fast thinking and capable protector of your children. Not everyone would react as well as you two did. Kudos.

[Caster]

It's easy to critique the situation when you can sit down and plot it out in your mind. Everything is okay now. Learn and move on.

...It wouldn't be an unreasonable thing to do to go into the back yard and practice this if you're going to be out a lot this summer. With an unloaded weapon, see how easily you can snatch up your boy with your weak hand while drawing to fire with the other. The kid will get a kick out f it too if you make a fun game out of it.

[daddyo]

Any unknown large canine or other large animal is running straight at me or someone I care about, I'm not taking any chances. People who can't or refuse to control their animals shouldn't expect anything other than a defensive response from someone who sees their pet as a potential threat.

Sorry, but yelling "It's OK" seconds before the thing closes on me is too late.

It's not too hard - If you can't control your pet, then get rid of it.

[hkgonra]

If the dog looked friendly I would have reached out and attempted to stop it. I am sure the owner would have appreciated it and my kids like dog kisses.

[memphismason]

I think I probably would have done the same thing you did. I have played out your scenario in my head a few times and I honestly don't think I would have done anything different than what you did. You stepped in front of your child and put yourself in the best position to take whatever defense you needed to.

[peejman]

You reacted in an attempt to protect your son. You did good. Don't beat yourself up because you didn't take a certain action. You acted. That's half the battle.

This.

I have a dog and like dogs in general just fine. However, I'm reacting aggressively toward one that comes running toward my kids. First priority is to get the kids out of harms way. A sharp vocal command with an aggressive posture will stop most dogs in their tracks.

I have two little ones. We walk around the neighborhood and in the park. I try to make a point to keep my right hand free.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

After walking the dawgs uneventful for many years, they got jumped by two off-leash dogs. So started making sure to tote pepper spray and pistol on every walk after that.

Afterward, any time if a dog was closing in I would yell him off. If the dog approached anyway, which happened two or three times, they got a snootful of pepper spray before they could approach. Which is nasty stuff because if there is much wind, you can't maneuver the situation to always be up-wind, so me and my dogs would get at least a whiff of the gag-a-maggot spray, though the strange dog got the worst of it.

One time it was witnessed by the couple who were a half-block away 'walking" their dog off-leash from the other direction. When we got close enough to talk I apologized and explained my dogs has recently been attacked by off leash dogs. They didn't make a big deal, though there is the chance of irate owners mad that you pepper-sprayed their precious baby. So the aftermath needs careful handling to avoid escalation.

If the pepper spray didn't work and a dog attacked me or the dogs, I'd shoot with no hesitation. At that close range would try to shoot with point-contact, to avoid shooting the wrong dog. Once you have 3 or 4 dogs fighting right under your feet, with two leashes wrapping around you, it gets to be a hectic situation in a hurry.

[Caster]

Lester that's why you never empty the pepper spray can. Always have enough to squirt the stupid owners when they come running their mouth.

[peejman]

.... Once you have 3 or 4 dogs fighting right under your feet, with two leashes wrapping around you, it gets to be a hectic situation in a hurry.

Never, ever get in the middle of a dog fight. I'm not talking about them growling and snapping at each other, but a full-on fur ball. I know you'd like to protect your precious baby too, but dogs go to fully primal kill everything mode, which includes you. The white of their eyes turn red and it's game on. If you can intervene before it gets to that, great. If not, best to just get away and wait for it to be over.

[JReedEsq]

I'd say the best practice is to pick your kid up and hold them on your weak side. I love dogs but they are unpredictible. I have a hyper-active boxer that is absolutely great with my kids, but I don't trust him around other kids. He's jumpy with strangers and usually good with other small dogs. He wants to be around us and doesn't run away but he always stays on a leash in public.

[Dennis1209]

You did fine Ricks. Dogs get unintentionally loose from their owners all the time, fortunately, most are friendly toward humans. I've been confronted by aggressive mean dogs many times in my delivery driver life but, never had my child with me. With just a split second notice, I don't think anyone can say exactly what they would do because the environment, place and situation could be different. The one common denominator that we all share is the protection of our family. Your instincts will dictate your response. Arm chairing this, I think I probably would have either blocked the dogs path or grabbed my son, placed him on the hood of the nearest vehicle, then dealt with the animal if it was vicious. The one thing I would never do is use my handgun for self defense in the situation you described, for obvious reasons (family, customers, public area, etc. near by). So don't worry over it. In my little section of Tennessee, we have a saying, "you did real gooder"!

[LI0NSFAN]

What you and your wife did was perfect. I would rather put me between the dog and kids than take a chance at the dog jumping up and getting a piece of one of my kids. It was great team work. A stern voice will work most of the time as well but I would always place myself between danger and my family.

Something I have seen work amazingly is an air horn. I was at a day camp for dogs when a fight broke out and it was one of those all out brawls and the worker gave a quick burst from the air horn and you would have thought time stood still and many of the dogs layed down the rest just stood still. We carry one everytime we walk just in case. we have tested it at night when all the dogs in the neighborhood were barking and it ended the barking for a good hour. Not sure the reason behind it but it works. That would work when going to the park or on a walk.

[Makiaveli]

You reacted in an attempt to protect your son. You did good. Don't beat yourself up because you didn't take a certain action. You acted. That's half the battle.

This.

[c.a.willard]

I dont see how scooping up your kid could possibly offer more protection than standing in front of them. If the dog attacks your gonna want both your hands and arms free to protect your vitals. If the dog is attacking you then your child is safe. if your holding your kid and the dog attacks both of you are likely to be injured. You done good. But this makes me miss the days when i was growing up and everyones dogs would run free with zero issues. Like a previous person said id probbaly try and stop the dog, unless it looked noticably aggresive.

[broox]

You should have:

1. shot the dog

2. shot at least two shots in the air for celebration

3. held the owners for the police

4. been surprised when you went to jail

really, you did good

[gjohnsoniv]

Dogs really can be unpredictable. I've always had labs which they say are great with children, well I still have the scar from where one bit through my eyelid. I have never had any problems from them past that. The other day though I had to go right by a dog that acted friendly until I got right next to it and petted it then it clamped down on my hand. I was not too happy. On a positive note though I think you reacted well in this situation.

Edited March 28, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Never, ever get in the middle of a dog fight. I'm not talking about them growling and snapping at each other, but a full-on fur ball. I know you'd like to protect your precious baby too, but dogs go to fully primal kill everything mode, which includes you. The white of their eyes turn red and it's game on. If you can intervene before it gets to that, great. If not, best to just get away and wait for it to be over.

Thanks Peejman. Agree completely. The wolf comes out real quick. Dunno much about it.

If one attempts to interfere, so far as I've been able to determine, the safest way (for a simple two dog fight) requires two people. Each person grabs one tail and drags the insane slavering beasts apart. If the dawgs are properly fixated on killing each other then each person can get them separated sufficiently to grab a collar and shove one or both into different rooms or other temporary confinement till they calm down. Or lacking suitable confinement, each person just hangs onto their dog for a long time, dragging it well out of the vicinity of the other dog. If the dogs happen to be not blood-thirsty crazy enough, and they happen to notice being dragged by the tail, and if they try to turn around and bite you, then let go of the tail immediately and allow the dogfight to continue.

I've not had much luck with airhorns but it is worth a try. Works sometimes or so they say. The best is to break it up at least a few seconds before they go red-eyed and the wolf comes out. You have to get their attention diverted before "its on". If it is "almost on" then something like an airhorn is sufficient stimulus to precipitate a fight.

Also tried a cattleprod but once they are red-eyed in a killing mood then they seem immune to any shock pain insufficient to knock em out entirely. Old dad loaned me a hotshot cattle prod that apparently doesn't have sufficient juice to break up a coonhound fight. The hounds didn't even notice. Only tried it once. Was so ineffective didn't try it a second time. The boys only have a dustup a couple of times a year. Otherwise they are pals. Have got pretty good at detecting early symptoms of discontent and I lay down the law and make em sit in their favorite chairs with a dunce cap on.

I don't take the current pair of rescue coonhounds out on neighborhood walks. They are sweet dogs who love people. Never detected even one instance of human aggression, but if I was to walk them up the street and they see a cat, they would pull me down and drag me up the street until the cat goes up a tree. Strong fellers for their size and very single-minded around prey.

The dogs that got jumped were the previous dear departed pair a few years back, female black lab and female boykin spaniel. They were quite manageable on street walks. Was walking past the neighborhood fenced softball parks. A nice-enough looking young couple had a couple of beautiful hounds latched up in one of the softball fields throwing frisbee. Weimaraners or some related breed. Beautiful dogs that might as well have been clones of each other they looked so identical. I stopped to admire the handsome hounds and the pair ran up to the gate to scope us out.

One of the dogs jumped up on the gate and the latch came open. So they both trotted out and ran to us with tails wagging like they wanted to scope out my foxy chicks. Then when they got close they just laid into my dogs. Wasn't much choice of being right in the middle of four fighting dogs, though mine were scared to death and trying to get away. If you drop the leash then the dogs would most likely run straight for the road and get hit by a truck. So I was kicking dogs and trying to get separated, and the nice couple finally came up and pulled off their beautiful dogs. They didn't even apologize. Was very disappointed by the attitude of the nice young couple.

So I decided that it was better not to let off-leash dogs get so close, regardless of how friendly they may seem.

Dogs really can be unpredictable. I've always had labs which they say are great with children, well I still have the scar from where one bit through my eyelid. I have never had any problems from them past that. The other day though I had to go right by a dog that acted friendly until I got right next to it and petted it then it clamped down on my hand. I was not too happy. On a positive note though I think you reacted well in this situation.