White privilege and the politics of race

[Guest profgunner]

Yeah, that's true enough but the thing is that those families are mostly white. Cause most welfare goes to white folks and all. Visit the rural areas sometime and spend some time there. You'll discover a more than a few unwed mothers with kids waiting on the check.

I have not seen the data so I'll have to take your word on this one. My statement about social welfare, however, was not aimed at any particular "group". I just think giving anyone a free handout year after year after year is a bad idea. How about work or don't eat?

[TGO David]

DaveTN made a very valid point. Our legal system doesn't account for bias. It's only interested in the basic facts. The basic facts of this case are important and hopefully will come out, but I would say that we should think about these incidents and our reaction to them more deeply.

However, our legal system also provides for a jury of our human peers, and too frequently their decisions are clouded by other factors besides the facts. Factors like personal feelings.

[Guest profgunner]

However, our legal system also provides for a jury of our human peers, and too frequently their decisions are clouded by other factors besides the facts. Factors like personal feelings.

True, but it's a heck of a lot better than anything else that's been tried. I'd prefer a trial by jury to a government tribunal.

[Links2k]

I have not seen the data so I'll have to take your word on this one. My statement about social welfare, however, was not aimed at any particular "group". I just think giving anyone a free handout year after year after year is a bad idea. How about work or don't eat?

I agree.

[Links2k]

True. I'm not black so there's no way I can know. I'm the privileged white who is in denial.

However, I am a white guy from Arkansas, who grew up in Memphis, who's been around the world, has a black sister, a Hispanic sister-in-law, German brother-in-law, with a history and a philosophy degree, and came from a family that came to America as debtors, criminals, and sharecroppers through South Carolina. What in the world does that have to do with statistical realities in the historical context?

Again, segregation is bad, wrong, evil, and ignorant. My point has nothing to do with segregation. Rather it was to compare and contrast the black community during segregation and in it's current state to show that the so called "white privilege" theory has nothing to do with the current state of the decline of the black community as related to current perceptions of oppression. "White privilege" is a cop-out/excuse for this generations sub-mediocrity.

"White privilege" is a simple test. If it is the source of black oppression currently, then the black community would be better now then they were under overt "white privilege" ie segregation. It doesn't hold water.

Edited March 26, 2012 by LINKS2K

[Guest profgunner]

All I will say is this. I am in academia and I teach a class on race & crime. I talk about the issue of white privilege frequently. I was a street cop and someone who thought the idea of white privilege was idiotic. The more I read, studied, and pondered things, the more I realized that it wasn't as idiotic as I once thought. There is plenty of data to show that institutionalized bias exists. The issue of privilege and bias goes to the deeper questions of why either of these individuals were involved in this incident, the motives for their behavior, and the public reaction to it. People see the world from their own worldview. We see it differently than people who have a very different set of life experiences. Some of the complaints made by various minority groups are legitimate. Some are not, but are based on flawed logic that is reproduced within their social circles. When I tried to look at the link, it wouldn't work for me so I can't speak to the content of that particular source.

DaveTN made a very valid point. Our legal system doesn't account for bias. It's only interested in the basic facts. The basic facts of this case are important and hopefully will come out, but I would say that we should think about these incidents and our reaction to them more deeply. It's too easy to just write these things off as bad decisions and lay blame without thinking about the more subtle issues that contribute to these events.

Well stated.

[East_TN_Patriot]

However, our legal system also provides for a jury of our human peers, and too frequently their decisions are clouded by other factors besides the facts. Factors like personal feelings.

Or underlying racial/ethnic/gender/class bias. Here is an example I used in my classes this semester. I read a story about a middle class white male who was murdered by three men who were identified as either Hispanic or Middle Eastern. When I read the story, I left out all references to race, social class, gender, or ethnicity. Before I read it, I told my students to try and visualize the crime in their minds. When it was over, I asked them to describe the crime and discuss what factors contributed to it. Then I asked them to describe the victim. Virtually everyone described the victim as a young middle class white male. I then asked them to describe the suspects. Virtually everyone described them as teenage poor black males and suggested it was gang related. When I revealed the full story, asked why so many people described the suspects like they did. They didn't really have an answer, but one said that he "wasn't trying to be biased" in his mind. I told him that was exactly the point and tossed out an open question wondering how many police officers went onto that scene with their own unintentional biases. How many jurors have these same unintentional biases? How many employers have these same unintentional biases?

It's easy to assume that everyone in our society has exactly the same opportunities and/or the skills and knowledge to take advantage of these opportunities. When most social scientists talk about the topic of white privilege, it's simply an acknowledgement that our society was shaped by wealthy white males using the culture and traditions of western European society. To be successful in our society, we must be able to successfully negotiate the institutions of our society, so those who come from that white middle/upper class background are going to find it much easier to identify and take advantage of opportunity. Knowing how to dress, how to talk, how to fill out a job application or resume, how to use a computer, or how to perform well on standardized tests are the types of skills (what social scientists call social capital) that are essential to being successful. Where does this sort of social capital come from? Much of it comes from your family and intimate social interactions. When your background doesn't teach this, as is the case in many segments of the black community, you are at a disadvantage. There is a reason why many colleges teach classes on etiquette, interviewing skills, and interpersonal communication. Really, this issue speaks to issues of social class more than race, but when you consider that blacks are twice as likely to be in poverty than whites, it's more visible in the black community. When you look at the history of race-based policy in the United States, it becomes pretty clear why the black community lags behind economically. Polices such as segregation and discriminatory lending/redlining have only been gone for 2 generations.

When you look at police patrol practices, they are more concentrated in poor black neighborhoods. Does this mean that wealthier people don't commit crime? Not at all, but the types of crime that are committed in poor black neighborhoods are the types of crime that street cops have the ability to detect and investigate. Innovations in policing, especially "broken windows" policing, zero-tolerance policing, and "place-based policing," put people in the low-income neighborhoods at a greater risk of being brought to the attention of law enforcement. Studies have shown that middle class youth involved in criminal activity are more likely to be dealt with informally while poor kids are formally charged. Data shows that whites use illegal drugs at roughly the same rates as blacks, but blacks are twice as likely to be arrested and incarcerated than whites. When you read and hear the words of the original LA gang members who started the Crips and the Bloods, they speak directly about being denied access to employment and opportunity during the 1950s and 60s on the heels of segregation and discriminatory policies.

Generally, the discussion of white privilege is not one of white folks being blatantly racist, but one of white folks being unintentionally ignorant of the challenges faced by many blacks in society due to the continuing residual effects of over 2 centuries of blatantly racist policy in the United States. Are things improving? Certainly, but it takes time. Just because Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation didn't make all of the inequality in Southern society disappear or change the minds of people who had been socialized into the belief that slavery was a religiously justified and essential social institution. Would most whites in society give a black person the same opportunities as anyone else? I believe so. The problem is that it's far too easy to assume that the only reason that someone doesn't do all the things to be successful is because they are lazy or don't care. Do people take full advantage of this social problem and manipulate it for political and financial gain? Absolutely, and therein lies the part of the problem. Instead of educating society about the issue, they play games and help perpetuate a victim mentality in the black community.

And with that, I have to put together a lecture on genocide that I am giving in the AM.

Edited March 26, 2012 by East_TN_Patriot

[Guest profgunner]

Or underlying racial/ethnic/gender/class bias. Here is an example I used in my classes this semester. I read a story about a middle class white male who was murdered by three men who were identified as either Hispanic or Middle Eastern. When I read the story, I left out all references to race, social class, gender, or ethnicity. Before I read it, I told my students to try and visualize the crime in their minds. When it was over, I asked them to describe the crime and discuss what factors contributed to it. Then I asked them to describe the victim. Virtually everyone described the victim as a young middle class white male. I then asked them to describe the suspects. Virtually everyone described them as teenage poor black males and suggested it was gang related. When I revealed the full story, asked why so many people described the suspects like they did. They didn't really have an answer, but one said that he "wasn't trying to be biased" in his mind. I told him that was exactly the point and tossed out an open question wondering how many police officers went onto that scene with their own unintentional biases. How many jurors have these same unintentional biases?

Interesting. May I ask about the makeup of the class in terms of race? Were these mostly white students? If so, would you expect a class of mostly black students to respond in the same way?

[East_TN_Patriot]

Interesting. May I ask about the makeup of the class in terms of race? Were these mostly white students? If so, would you expect a class of mostly black students to respond in the same way?

Actually, there are several black students in the class (it counts as an elective in the Africana Studies program) and even a few of them said the same thing. This does make some sense because young black men do commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime. Roughly half of murders in the US are committed by black males from the ages of 16 - 24 (or something close to that). One said that they expected it to be young black males because they felt that is the only type of crime the media covers on a regular basis.

[Smith]

I agree with what you deleted. My focus was not blacks, but any group that uses race as an excuse for mediocrity. Whether that be white, black, green, purple, whatever. I've seen just as much of it from other races.

[mcurrier]

Heard a black caller today telling Hannity that this is what we "get for treating black people bad for 400 years". A few minutes later I was in Costco walking down the hardware/tool aisle. There were two latino guys looking at some tools and speakng in Spanish to each other. I didn't assume that they were ilegals, but it made me think. Legal citizens or not, the Mexicans seem to be hard workers when they move here. They want to better themselves. As do most other immigrant nationalities. Then I get to thinking that there is a sizeable percentage of the black population that has been whining about their perceived plight since as long as I can remember. (Israel were slaves for 400 years, but you don't hear them eternally whining about it). And then you've got the opportunistic race-baters like Jackson, Sharpton, Wright, Farrakahn, etc. And then the current POTUS has to throw in with them, and is it any wonder why everyone isn't coming together in harmony? If people would take personal responsibility for themselves rather than depending on others, everyone would be a lot better off. Working people have good self-esteem. The problem is that the Dem party has kept blacks dependent on govt. and enslaved them for their votes, so they've got to keep that race card alive and keep division to maintain power.

Edited March 27, 2012 by mcurrier

[Guest lostpass]

I reality most people groups tend to do better under oppression.

Those jews worked like crazy in the concentrations camps.

I looked and could not find any of the assertions you made to be true. Could we get some links about life with segregation being better? You are a multiple degree guy so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

You are making the claim so you have to back it up.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Those jews worked like crazy in the concentrations camps.

I looked and could not find any of the assertions you made to be true. Could we get some links about life with segregation being better? You are a multiple degree guy so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

You are making the claim so you have to back it up.

He doesn't need to. Look a bit more, or rather read more books. I understand it the same as Smith. And he

wasn't talking about Nazi Germany. That's absurd and irrelevant to what he said. What happened to Israel

a few thousand years before Hitler? And he prefaced his statements so to prevent any misunderstandings

quite well, I thought.

[Smith]

Those jews worked like crazy in the concentrations camps.

I looked and could not find any of the assertions you made to be true. Could we get some links about life with segregation being better? You are a multiple degree guy so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

You are making the claim so you have to back it up.

You're wanting to argue the tree instead of the forest. I won't do you homework for you, but I will give you one hint. You live in the greatest country in the world that just happens to have been born and forged in the fires of oppression. We are the fruits of that labor

Edited March 27, 2012 by Smith

[Guest HvyMtl]

As long as the government lists race as an identifier, there will always be the viewpoint of difference. As long as politicians can garner political gains by playing race, there will always be one race "better" than another. As long as people perceive each other as race over personal worth, there will always be prejudice. As long as those who have not, relate their not having due to race, there will be racial strife.

The cycle needs to be broken. Human = Human.

[Guest CCI]

I was in Costco walking down the hardware/tool aisle. There were two latino guys looking at some tools and speakng in Spanish to each other. I didn't assume that they were ilegals, but it made me think. Legal citizens or not, the Mexicans seem to be hard workers when they move here. They want to better themselves.

I recentely moved here after living in California for over 40 years!

They are hard workers! And before you know it they will take over the roofing jobs, the plumbing jobs, the land scaping jobs, the fast food jobs! Put one in a city management position, he will slowly hire his cousins(their families are huge!), you and I will not stand a chance of being hired! No exaggeration, no BS! I

[Mark@Sea]

Stereotypes have a habit of being based on factual trends.

Politicians have one and only one trick in their bag - Take from them, and give it to you folks. The excuses they use for doing this are many. Claiming that "them" are privileged, and that "you" are therefore entitled, is pretty much a stock excuse, frequently given a quick re-paint or new trim, and sold to people who want to buy it and are more than happy to ignore the logical defects.

[Smith]

As long as the government lists race as an identifier, there will always be the viewpoint of difference. As long as politicians can garner political gains by playing race, there will always be one race "better" than another. As long as people perceive each other as race over personal worth, there will always be prejudice. As long as those who have not, relate their not having due to race, there will be racial strife.

The cycle needs to be broken. Human = Human.

How true. Problem is that human nature does not change.

[mcurrier]

I recentely moved here after living in California for over 40 years!

They are hard workers! And before you know it they will take over the roofing jobs, the plumbing jobs, the land scaping jobs, the fast food jobs! Put one in a city management position, he will slowly hire his cousins(their families are huge!), you and I will not stand a chance of being hired! No exaggeration, no BS! I

Agreed. And even though I disagree with the illegally coming here part, I have serious respect for how hard they work. Other cultures could learn by their example and better themselves. And some have had quite a while to do so.

[mcurrier]

As long as the government lists race as an identifier, there will always be the viewpoint of difference. As long as politicians can garner political gains by playing race, there will always be one race "better" than another. As long as people perceive each other as race over personal worth, there will always be prejudice. As long as those who have not, relate their not having due to race, there will be racial strife.

The cycle needs to be broken. Human = Human.

AMEN!!! As soon as we get rid of crutches like "affirmative action", racial quotas and other such garbage, we will be stuck in this perpetual cycle of envy/hate/laziness/entitlement mentality.

Former NAACP leader accuses Sharpton and Jackson of ‘exploiting’ Trayvon Martin

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

[Guest 6.8 AR]

You beat me to it, mcurrier. Was just reading it.

[mcurrier]

Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

As a grieving mother, that is the LAST thing I would ever be thinking about. Al or Jesse must have tipped her off to the idea. "Come on momma, do it for the people...for Trayvon..." Al and Jesse will have their fingers in the Trayvon Memorial Hoodie pie.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

As a grieving mother, that is the LAST thing I would ever be thinking about. Al or Jesse must have tipped her off to the idea. "Come on momma, do it for the people...for Trayvon..." Al and Jesse will have their fingers in the Trayvon Memorial Hoodie pie.

Or perhaps she is trying to prevent other people from profiting off of her dead son. Considering people are already making shirts, I think it makes sense.

[Guest profgunner]

Or perhaps she is trying to prevent other people from profiting off of her dead son. Considering people are already making shirts, I think it makes sense.

Really?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Obama wants to profit from it. I would imagine she does, also. I think it would be a leap for me to think

otherwise. I've never heard of that happening to prevent others from profiting without her wanting to

do the same. Both are wrong.