Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[-Bristol-]

Obama throwing in his .02 cents early and often is what burns me up. And Holder is mud in the works. Neither are helping.

[Links2k]

the facts are NOT presented yet...The more I read about the story of the kid and his death the more I

dont like the kid.....He is NOT the goody 2 shoes everyone thinks he is and while death by gun not deserved buy

a jerk like Zimmerman....The news is not factual - I await the full reports down the road

Notice the news did not put up this pic......ill wait for the lawyers to make both guys out to be ####

The tall skinny kid could have been a ass just like most other teens. I simply want to know if he was violating any laws before Zimmerman pursued him. Who was actually yelling for help (depending on who you listen to it could have been either of them) and who would not fight some weido chasing you around the neighborhood?

This kid was on a five day suspension, but it was for being tardy according to his english teacher. It was not for being a trouble maker. Is this the kid or some random picture being passed out by Zimmerman supporters?

I agree with what 6.8 keeps saying. This will get worse before it gets better.

Edited March 25, 2012 by LINKS2K

[Guest 6.8 AR]

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

May not mean much, but it may explain what has already been reported. An eyewitness.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/black-panther-rage-10g-capture-trayvon-killer-article-1.1050370

Now there's a group that knows justice. They need to stick to the voting precincts in PA.

[Mark@Sea]

Well, a lot of "appeals to emotion" here. He was somebodys' child. So are we all, last I checked. Being under the legal limit for alcohol does not an angel make.

Disregard all the politically driven emotionally charged pravda, and we are down to the fact that the responding officers did not arrest. The local prosecutor did not believe there was enough evidence to indict. An on-the-scene witness stated that the shooter was attacked from behind, and was on the ground being beaten when he pulled the trigger. The only conflicting witness, apparently was the dead guys' girlfriend, who was on the phone. I personally have no doubt that the girlfriend would only tell the truth, don't you? So, given the facts, there are two possibilities here - either this was almost certainly a justified shoot, or the town of Sanford is a KKK hotbed, including at least 2 cops, the chief of police, and the county prosecutor, who are conspiring to protect a hispanic shooter.

Occams razor, anyone?

I doubt at this point it would be possible to find an unbiased Grand Jury, this man having been convicted and sentenced in the court of public opinion by everyone up to and including the POTUS.

Tough times for this guy. Interesting (and not in a good way, I'm afraid) to see what Holder and co. say about the Black Panthers putting a bounty on his head.

And as an aside, I seem to recall at least once before in this forum a rush to judgement against an HCP holder in a shoot which was later found to be completely justified. We more than anyone should realize that the reason so many people are getting permits is that sometimes, some people need to be shot. Unless I am in a minority, and the majority are getting the permits for the cool points or something...

Edited March 25, 2012 by Mark@Sea

[daddyo]

What I find so interesting and disturbing at the same time in cases like this (black-on-white/hispanic/asian/any-race-other-than-black) is that it is presumed by the black community as a whole, before all the facts are in, that it is the one who is black who is the victim and who is always innocent. That very well may be the case here, but the mob mentality on display in the form of protests and demands for Zimmerman's arrest when law enforcement has not found sufficient evidence to warrant that arrest is very troubling.

I thought blacks found lynch mobs to be offensive. Is that only when the lynch mob is not black?

Edited March 25, 2012 by DaddyO

[mikegideon]

Well, a lot of "appeals to emotion" here. He was somebodys' child. So are we all, last I checked. Being under the legal limit for alcohol does not an angel make.

Disregard all the politically driven emotionally charged pravda, and we are down to the fact that the responding officers did not arrest. The local prosecutor did not believe there was enough evidence to indict. An on-the-scene witness stated that the shooter was attacked from behind, and was on the ground being beaten when he pulled the trigger. The only conflicting witness, apparently was the dead guys' girlfriend, who was on the phone. I personally have no doubt that the girlfriend would only tell the truth, don't you? So, given the facts, there are two possibilities here - either this was almost certainly a justified shoot, or the town of Sanford is a KKK hotbed, including at least 2 cops, the chief of police, and the county prosecutor, who are conspiring to protect a hispanic shooter.

Occams razor, anyone?

I doubt at this point it would be possible to find an unbiased Grand Jury, this man having been convicted and sentenced in the court of public opinion by everyone up to and including the POTUS.

Tough times for this guy. Interesting (and not in a good way, I'm afraid) to see what Holder and co. say about the Black Panthers putting a bounty on his head.

And as an aside, I seem to recall at least once before in this forum a rush to judgement against an HCP holder in a shoot which was later found to be completely justified. We more than anyone should realize that the reason so many people are getting permits is that sometimes, some people need to be shot. Unless I am in a minority, and the majority are getting the permits for the cool points or something...

Well said. No matter what really happened, you have two large groups that have jumped on this with their agendas. You have the anti's, who don't believe we should have guns in the first place, and the folks that always think it's about race.

Now, Martin's attorney says that they may not be able to file Federal charges. In other words, rule racism out.

The media's coverage of this thing is damn near criminal.

[RobertNashville]

911 tapes. Two facts: Zimmerman's own words on record; there is a dead 17 year old. Everything else is up for question, but those two things together tell a story that needs to be looked at by a jury.

There should only be a trial if charges are justified - I haven't heard anyone say that a proper investigation isn't warranted or that charges shouldn't be brought IF justified. However; given the almost hysterical media circus headed by the two circus clowns (Sharpton and Jackson); I have little hope for a truly fair investigation here.

I'm not giving either the shooter or the kid a pass; I just don't like and never will like trial by press or by an ill-informed public who wasn't there - I've see FAR too many examples where all the know-it-all's knew nothing had it dead wrong.

And yeah...nothing better than "911 tapes" for facts.

I've said many things in my life that could be problematic if the WHOLE story is known and in an extremely stressful situation where you may even feel you have to defend your life don't you think things could be said that could give a wrong impression which is why every firearms instructor that talks about self-defense shootings tell you the sorts of thing you should say to a 911 operator and to practice so that when you are in that stressful situation you don't say something you shouldn't.

Edited March 25, 2012 by RobertNashville

[mikegideon]

It's a real easy choice for for an anti. Nobody should ever be shot. Let's just hope the folks that have to make the decision based on real evidence are smarter than the general public.

[RobertNashville]

It's a real easy choice for for an anti. Nobody should ever be shot. Let's just hope the folks that have to make the decision based on real evidence are smarter than the general public.

I know a few anti's who absolutely feel that way...I've also seen a couple of them change their minds when they became a victim and realized that when it counted, they were completely at the mercy of a thug.

[mikegideon]

Had an argument about this with my girlfriend last night. You can't fix a Libtard.

[RobertNashville]

There should only be a trial if charges are justified - I haven't heard anyone say that a proper investigation isn't warranted or that charges shouldn't be brought IF justified. However; given the almost hysterical media circus headed by the two circus clowns (Sharpton and Jackson); I have little hope for a truly fair investigation here.

I'm not giving either the shooter or the kid a pass but I don't like and never will like trial by press or by an ill-informed public who wasn't there - I've see FAR too many examples where all the know-it-all's knew nothing and had it dead wrong.

And yeah...nothing better than "911 tapes" for facts.

I've said many things in my life that could be problematic if the WHOLE story is known. In an extremely stressful situation where you may even feel you have to defend your life I think things could be said that could give a wrong impression which is most firearms instructors that talks about self-defense shootings (and every such class I've had) have taught the sorts of thing you should (and shouldn't) say to a 911 operator and then tell you to practice so that when you are in that stressful situation you don't say something you shouldn't.

[CQB Elite]

Seems to me there are a lot of people (here on TGO, across the country and of course, Sharpton and Jackson) who seem to know a hell of a lot of "facts" about this. Yet, many of those "facts" tend to conflict with one another.

Funny how that works.

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! That post pretty much sums up this whole conversation.

As one old time deputy told me when I first put on a gun & star, "There are 3 sides to every story- his side, her side and the truth".....

[K191145]

I live above the old elementry school which the property is now owned by my neighbor, it is sometimes targeted for vandalism and grafitti. Since I have a decent view of it my neighbor asked me if I ever saw a vehicle or heard some voices on the property to call him. I have called him 3 times and that's as far as I will ever go, I will not investigate or confront anyone down there because it's not my property and not my business to confront anyone not on my property, I AM NOT A CITY, COUNTY, STATE, OR FEDERAL POLICE OFFICER so I don't have any authority to confront anyone that's not on my property.

I agree that we don't know hardly any real facts in this situation but it does seem that Zimmerman went beyond his business, when the 911 operator told him not to follow him he should have stopped right there and let the real, official police officers handle the rest. Maybe Zimmerman was being assualted whe he shot him and i'm not screaming to hang him but if there's anything known about this, Zimmerman started the situation.

To any and all PRIVATE SECURITY guards weather you are hired by some PRIVATE company or self appointed, You have very LIMITED AUTHORITY in or on the property you were hired to guard, beyond that you have no more authority than my cat. If you are self appointed security you have no authority whatsoever.

[mikegideon]

I live above the old elementry school which the property is now owned by my neighbor, it is sometimes targeted for vandalism and grafitti. Since I have a decent view of it my neighbor asked me if I ever saw a vehicle or heard some voices on the property to call him. I have called him 3 times and that's as far as I will ever go, I will not investigate or confront anyone down there because it's not my property and not my business to confront anyone not on my property, I AM NOT A CITY, COUNTY, STATE, OR FEDERAL POLICE OFFICER so I don't have any authority to confront anyone that's not on my property.

I agree that we don't know hardly any real facts in this situation but it does seem that Zimmerman went beyond his business, when the 911 operator told him not to follow him he should have stopped right there and let the real, official police officers handle the rest. Maybe Zimmerman was being assualted whe he shot him and i'm not screaming to hang him but if there's anything known about this, Zimmerman started the situation.

To any and all PRIVATE SECURITY guards weather you are hired by some PRIVATE company or self appointed, You have very LIMITED AUTHORITY in or on the property you were hired to guard, beyond that you have no more authority than my cat. If you are self appointed security you have no authority whatsoever.

Everybody pretty much agrees that he was a dumbass for going after him. Might have a hard time finding 12 folks to agree that it deserves a murder conviction unless it really was murder. If the judge is worth their salt, they'll weed out the lawyer fodder and focus the jury on the real decision. They will get their marching orders from a judge. If you start locking folks up for being a dumbass, we're gonna need a LOT more prisons.

[oldogy]

I agree that we don't know hardly any real facts in this situation but it does seem that Zimmerman went beyond his business, when the 911 operator told him not to follow him he should have stopped right there and let the real, official police officers handle the rest. Maybe Zimmerman was being assualted whe he shot him and i'm not screaming to hang him but if there's anything known about this, Zimmerman started the situation.

To any and all PRIVATE SECURITY guards weather you are hired by some PRIVATE company or self appointed, You have very LIMITED AUTHORITY in or on the property you were hired to guard, beyond that you have no more authority than my cat. If you are self appointed security you have no authority whatsoever.

What he just said. And why was Zimmerman even out of the relative safety of his vehicle? What is one of the first things you are supposed to learn when carrying? Certainly Zimmy was not avoiding conflict. Certainly enough here for a G J indictment. I just can not see where race comes into this at all.

[enfield]

. . . and now an EYEWITNESS has shown up, and his story is different.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/witness-trayvon-martin-attacked-zimmerman/

Edited March 25, 2012 by enfield

[K191145]

Everybody pretty much agrees that he was a dumbass for going after him. Might have a hard time finding 12 folks to agree that it deserves a murder conviction unless it really was murder. If the judge is worth their salt, they'll weed out the lawyer fodder and focus the jury on the real decision. They will get their marching orders from a judge. If you start locking folks up for being a dumbass, we're gonna need a LOT more prisons.

No we can't lock everyone up for being a dumbass but we have to have "some" responsibility when we are a dumbass and cause a bad situation to happen. Like I said i'm not wanting to hang Zimmerman for murder with what we know but their needs to be a debate, in our own HPC holders community, ( No emotionally fragile liberals allowed), on just how far we can go. I know we have had plenty of debates already.

[mikegideon]

No we can't lock everyone up for being a dumbass but we have to have "some" responsibility when we are a dumbass and cause a bad situation to happen. Like I said i'm not wanting to hang Zimmerman for murder with what we know but their needs to be a debate, in our own HPC holders community, ( No emotionally fragile liberals allowed), on just how far we can go. I know we have had plenty of debates already.

I won't be stalking anybody, and doubt that many on this board would.. I know better. Zimmerman is in danger of going to prison, even if he's not guilty of murder. At this point, he has to rely on the "justice" system to function properly.

Edited March 25, 2012 by mikegideon

[TMF]

Well, a lot of "appeals to emotion" here. He was somebodys' child. So are we all, last I checked. Being under the legal limit for alcohol does not an angel make.

Disregard all the politically driven emotionally charged pravda, and we are down to the fact that the responding officers did not arrest. The local prosecutor did not believe there was enough evidence to indict. An on-the-scene witness stated that the shooter was attacked from behind, and was on the ground being beaten when he pulled the trigger. The only conflicting witness, apparently was the dead guys' girlfriend, who was on the phone. I personally have no doubt that the girlfriend would only tell the truth, don't you? ..

It's convenient that we can discount one witness statement but totally accept another as truth. Its all suspect or none of it is.

I also disagree with absolutes suggesting this was either a justified shoot or there is just some giant conspiracy. The police couldn't make an arrest on scene due to the SYG law and the statement they got from the shooter. If Martin was still alive and made a statement to police that Zimmerman attacked him then he probably would be arrested. Since then the PD did their investigation and handed it off to the DA. Maybe Zimmerman was days away from being arrested when this went national. We don't know that yet.

Either way, I would agree at this point it'll be hard to get a fair trial, but then again folks have said that before and they were still able to find jurors that gave a verdict based on evidence alone or lack of evidence (Casey Anthony).

Just because the media hype and the involvement of Jesse Jackson doesn't mean something bad didn't happen. I don't trust the media either, but I didn't suspect the shooter of wrongdoing until I heard the 911 tape. All other witness accounts can be countered by other witness accounts, but Zimmerman's words are his own and that should be enough for a Grand Jury to look into it.

Edited March 25, 2012 by TMF 18B

[TMF]

the facts are NOT presented yet...The more I read about the story of the kid and his death the more I

dont like the kid.....He is NOT the goody 2 shoes everyone thinks he is and while death by gun not deserved buy

a jerk like Zimmerman....The news is not factual - I await the full reports down the road

Notice the news did not put up this pic......ill wait for the lawyers to make both guys out to be ####

Yep, looks the way I did when I was a teenager, only a little darker. I don't suppose my family would be releasing that to the media no matter what the circumstances of my death might be.

[mikegideon]

. . . and now an EYEWITNESS has shown up, and his story is different.

http://www.wnd.com/2...cked-zimmerman/

Let's see where it goes. According to him, he was a 911 caller. There will be a hard record of that. I hope they haven't already hung the guy from a tree.

[Guest profgunner]

I can't find the Florida statute, but here is the Tennessee statute which lays out our "stand your ground" principle. Note especially item C. Should a case go to trial, this is where the jury comes into play. Should Zimmeran be charged and face a trial, he (assuming the Florida statute is similar to ours) will have to prove to a jury that there was a reasonable basis for his fear. My gut feeling is that he will eventually be arrested simply because of the political pressure now being focused on the case. If I'm right, I hope he can afford a very good attorney.

(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where such person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where such person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

(B)The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

© The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

Edited March 25, 2012 by profgunner

[Links2k]

What I find so interesting and disturbing at the same time in cases like this (black-on-white/hispanic/asian/any-race-other-than-black) is that it is presumed by the black community as a whole, before all the facts are in, that it is the one who is black who is the victim and who is always innocent. That very well may be the case here, but the mob mentality on display in the form of protests and demands for Zimmerman's arrest when law enforcement has not found sufficient evidence to warrant that arrest is very troubling.

I thought blacks found lynch mobs to be offensive. Is that only when the lynch mob is not black?

People are pissed because the boy was in the morgue for three days without his parents being notified and the appearance that Zimmerman and local law enforcement are friends.

C'mon we are Tennesseeans and you all know how friendly our community is with law enforcement. Most people that carry are law enforcement, shoot with law enforcement or know someone who is and you build a relationship over time. So, in a small place like that town Zimmerman could have told his buddies anything that he wanted.

I have no problem with being wrong about this. I am simply being a armchair qb just like everyone else stating their opinion.

[mikegideon]

People are pissed because the boy was in the morgue for three days without his parents being notified and the appearance that Zimmerman and local law enforcement are friends.

C'mon we are Tennesseeans and you all know how friendly our community is with law enforcement. Most people that carry are law enforcement, shoot with law enforcement or know someone who is and you build a relationship over time. So, in a small place like that town Zimmerman could have told his buddies anything that he wanted.

I have no problem with being wrong about this. I am simply being a armchair qb just like everyone else stating their opinion.

Somebody needs to be fired for the 3 day thing, unless there was no way to identify him.

[mikegideon]

I can't find the Florida statute, but here is the Tennessee statute which lays out our "stand your ground" principle. Note especially item C. Should a case go to trial, this is where the jury comes into play. Should Zimmeran be charged and face a trial, he (assuming the Florida statute is similar to ours) will have to prove to a jury that there was a reasonable basis for his fear. My gut feeling is that he will eventually be arrested simply because of the political pressure now being focused on the case. If I'm right, I hope he can afford a very good attorney.

(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where such person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where such person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if:

(A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

(B)The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

© The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

Reasonable= juror