Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[Guest Lester Weevils]

You know, one thing I've never gotten from all the coverage.

Was the gated subdivision directly on way from store to his home? A shortcut, even? Or was it an out of the way route?

Not that it makes a legal diff, I don't guess, but ... ?

- OS

Hi OS

Martin was staying there in the gated community, visiting from Miami. It is a fairly-dense-packed set of town houses, fenced on street sides but completely open on the back. Two gates. When I "virtual cased" the joint on google street view, one gate was open and the other was locked. No guard shacks.

I believe the place has all races living there. Race seems unlikely involved. But you just can't trust those dern kids. You kids stay out of my yard! Yeah, I mean you!! And no you can't have your ball or frizbee back! Just joking, nothing to do with the case. Its just a puzzle why Z would have been so suspicious of M in particular. If the place is mixed-race then the place is big enough that I'll bet a truckload of skittles that M was not the only black kid living there who would occasionally wear a hoodie.

Ain't saying bad about folks. Ain't saying bad about hoodies. Its just a puzzle.

[Oh Shoot]

Hi OS

Martin was staying there in the gated community, visiting from Miami....

Wow, thanks, I never ever somehow got this throughout all the news coverage, or this thread.

edit: oh, okay, he was staying in his father's girlfriend's house in the same gated community, got it.

- OS

Edited April 17, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's really doubtful if race had anything to do with it. That community is reported to have a pretty large group

of blacks, hispanics and whites as mixed as you could get. That was reported, but I don't remember the

percentages.

Since he was visiting, if he was coming home with his Skittles and tea, and he was wandering around some of the

townhouses, he might be considered suspicious to someone who pays attention. The only crime noted in the reports

of the area, at the time, was breaking into houses. I don't see a great stretch when listening to the whole 911 call.

Someone who was concerned about their neighborhood, Zimmerman, noticed something out of place, Martin.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

It's really doubtful if race had anything to do with it. That community is reported to have a pretty large group

of blacks, hispanics and whites as mixed as you could get. That was reported, but I don't remember the

percentages.

Since he was visiting, if he was coming home with his Skittles and tea, and he was wandering around some of the

townhouses, he might be considered suspicious to someone who pays attention.

Hi 6.8. One more lap around the track... Yup, most likely not racial. I don't recall claiming that Z necessarily meant any harm. It goes both ways is all I'm sayin. If M was coming home with his Skittles and Tea and notices some "creepy old dude" watching and following, the creepy old dude might be considered suspicious to someone who pays attention. You really find it so difficult to imagine that POSSIBLY both of these dudes considered themselves the good guys,and both of these dudes suspected the other guy as possibly dangerous with criminal intent?

I really don't care about Martin's frame of mind and I sure won't come to justify any reason Martin would want to whup that ass during or after the fact. If that's all someone wants to do is pick a fight, he's got some issues already. And stalking is not how I would ever characterize anyone looking out for his neighborhood. I doubt Zimmerman was driving through the neighborhood looking for a fight.

Lester, I'm not one to get into a fist fight. I came close a couple times in school, but never got whupped, either. I usually smiled and walked away. I was the scrawny kid in school and would have probably lost. With the tempers I see every day on the street where I live, I am surprised more people aren't killed, primarily for being stupid and being where they look suspicious. Martin was essentially raised by gang mentality after his parents divorced, if he ever was in a family setting. I'm sorry for his loss, but I won't waste my time trying to justify his actions that day. He was as he was raised and too many kids are like that. They see violence as a necessity. Violence met with opposition in this case, and there will be more of it.

I agree. I also doubt that Z was looking for a fight. It is possible that Z was looking for a fight but I doubt it.

Maybe M was a hardened juvenile delinquent. I'd expect a hardened JD to be packing heat or at least a wicked blade. A JD worth his salt would mess up Z with a bullet or razor. That is what JD's did even back when I was a kid. The non-JD upstanding law-abiding fellers would do it "just like John Wayne" with fists. Travon was using the "just like John Wayne" approved non-juvenile-delinquent method of kicking butt just like when I was his age.

It almost sounds like you were raised in a slightly less violent 50's and 60's culture than me. I mostly grew up in middle class burbs several places in the USA. It wasn't incredibly violent every day, and there wan't much shooting or stabbing, but there was a "non-insignificant" amount of tush-hoggery among fine upstanding white middle class youth. I am a dedicated pacifist and always avoided fights though not always successfully in the early days. Fights have got easier to avoid in the last decades, at least the places I go. But in the 50's and 60's I don't think a young man could have ever got lucky enough to avoid every single fight that might come his way.

One of Alex Jones paranoid ravings is that the USA has a lower average testosterone level nowadays. Maybe so. Testosterone makes mountain rams run full-speed into each other, over and over until one of them can't get up any more. Talk about seriously stupid behavior! About as stupid as a fist fight. Regardless how deplorable it may be, as long as there is testosterone there is gonna be the occasional irrational fight over little or nothing. The only way to stop it, is to get rid of our testosterone-producing nuggets, which would seem too high a price to pay!

It would be easy to write a long list of entirely-legal behaviors a feller could do, guaranteed to make some hot-head mad enough to attack. There are so many entirely legal ways to wave a red flag in front of a bull. Try this one ferinstance-- Go to a seedy bar, wait til everybody is real drunk and a stack of money is riding on a pool game, then accidentally jostle a pool player while he's making his shot.

Just sayin, if you truly are a pacifist you ain't gonna hide in the closet every day but on the other hand you will avoid waving red flags in front of bulls, annoying gamblers, dating other men's wives, insulting their moms, or whatever. Though mature people wouldn't be sucked into a fight that easily, there is the testosterone to contend with. Young men have an almost toxic overdose level of testosterone so those are the ones easiest to accidentally goad into something you will both later regret.

Maybe M was spoiling for a fight, but it is at least equally likely that Z wasn't quite clever enough in avoiding the waving of red flags. Just my opinion.

[Mark@Sea]

Zimmerman is driving to the grocery store.

Notices Martin (who appears to be adult) going from patio to patio. NOT WALKING DOWN THE STREET.

Martin sees Z watching him, raises his hoody and runs for the bushes.

Z is already on the phone with 911. Gets out of his truck (because Martin IS NOT walking down the street) to keep Martin in sight or see which way he went - in order to advise the police.

When the operator tells him they don't need him to follow, he turns around and heads back to truck.

Mall Ninja? Guess I am one too, I would do the same thing.

Almost everything else (including the iced tea and skittles) is bushwa, intended to paint a portrait of an unsuspicious youth on an innocent journey.

So. You live in a high-crime neighborhood - lots of break-ins. You see someone unknown to you, going from yard to yard, patio to patio (looking in the sliding glass doors, maybe?)

Do you -

Call 911 and attempt to keep the individual located until police can arrive on scene (mall ninja, according to some)

Ignore it and continue to the grocery store ("responsible" permit holder)

What the heck is responsible about seeing a stranger going through your neighbors back yards, running and hiding, and ignoring it?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Hey Lester. Mark and I see the same scenario, And I was raised in the same 50's and 60's culture as you, just

in a different town. I remember seeing a lot of the same stuff, just wasn't in the middle of anything that got my

own ass whupped. I actually got along with most everyone. Had a very normal life. I remember Clarksville High

School got reported by Walter Cronkite when we had race riots. I was at McDonald's the afternoon it happened

and the morning it carried over into school. I had some rowdy friends that got into fights all the time, but I seemed

to evade it. I'm not a pacifist, but I know when there's no use to get yourself damaged for no good reason. Some

people just like to fight. Big deal. I guess it's just the way I was raised. That's usually the case with others, too.

I've been in those seedy bars, and seen others get into fights. That just wasn't for me, and it was usually over

mostly nothing.

The difference in people like you and I and people like Martin and others that are raised by gangs because their

parents aren't around, is, they are raised with the use of violence as a means of survival, have little in the way

of morals, and criminal behavior is acceptable or assumed to be the norm. They end up being caged or dead.

Martin evidently exhibited this behavior and Zimmerman saw it and the following began.

Like Mark said, if you care about your neighborhood, you're going to want to take some care of it, and Martin

wasn't really a part of it. Something he did didn't look right to Zimmerman, and he was concerned enough to

possess a legal firearm.

If someone is dumb enough to wave a red flag in front of a bull, he either knows the risk and can take it, or is

just a fool.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Use google maps with satellite imagery turned on and zoom in. And walk the periphery with street view. That place is all streets and patios with little patches of grass. Couldn't pay me to live there.

If crime was to get so me and neighbors decide on active surveillance, I would lobby for friend-foe ID such as special tactical clown shoes, or a guard uniform or something. Or maybe just get everybody to chip in on street cams and a security guard.

Dunno what is reasonable in that neighborhood. In my neighborhood, if somebody is on the street then it is entirely legal until they step off the street. If somebody was acting real weird, but on the street, then I'd call 911. I would not go walking up the street tailing them. If somebody was in a yard, I'd probably call 911 but unless the neighbor was expecting me I wouldn't go into the neighbor's yard at night. Except maybe if we had all previously agreed on the tactical red clown shoes or something for friend-foe ID.

M couldn't have gone home at all in that neighborhood and stay on the street. Sidewalk would be about as close as it could get.

But ya'll have finally convinced me. There are no alternate scenarios. The only way it could have gone down is that M intentionally visited from Miami hoping to get a chance to kick Z's butt.

[mikegideon]

But ya'll have finally convinced me. There are no alternate scenarios. The only way it could have gone down is that M intentionally visited from Miami hoping to get a chance to kick Z's butt.

I'm certainly not that convinced either way until all the evidence comes out. May not be convinced then. My big problem has been with the large number of folks (not here so much) that Z is automatically guilty because he had a GUN , or because Trayvon was black.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I'm certainly not that convinced either way until all the evidence comes out. May not be convinced then. My big problem has been with the large number of folks (not here so much) that Z is automatically guilty because he had a GUN , or because Trayvon was black.

Yep, that is jumping to way too many conclusions.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of what happened, Lester. I happen to see it differently, though.

One fact does remain, and that is what exactly happened after the 911 call terminated. Anything else is

subject to whether you want to believe Zimmerman and witnesses, or the media. If I was sitting on the jury,

I wouldn't have many choices, would I? All evidence we are privy to points that way.

How can anyone look at this any other way without coloring it with stuff that isn't usable by a jury.

Skittles? Give me a break.

I won't consider anything other than evidence. If there's more, that's great. This personality crap can go away.

At some point, a jury will believe Zimmerman, or they won't.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Hopefully, I will never have to use my firearm to defend myself, but if I do, I hope it is a piece of trash thug redneck

that is green and there's no one out there that will make me into a racist against greens. Their argument of racism

is what makes reasonable people come to unreasonable conclusions, since it's vogue to color arguments nowadays.

[mikegideon]

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of what happened, Lester. I happen to see it differently, though.

One fact does remain, and that is what exactly happened after the 911 call terminated. Anything else is

subject to whether you want to believe Zimmerman and witnesses, or the media. If I was sitting on the jury,

I wouldn't have many choices, would I? All evidence we are privy to points that way.

How can anyone look at this any other way without coloring it with stuff that isn't usable by a jury.

Skittles? Give me a break.

I won't consider anything other than evidence. If there's more, that's great. This personality crap can go away.

At some point, a jury will believe Zimmerman, or they won't.

Hang on a minute. It's a known fact that carrying skittles is almost like carrying a bible. The evilness of all your guns is interfering with your logic. Probably makes you hate black folks too. Suggest you have a bowl of granola, a glass of soy milk, and rethink your position.

[Mark@Sea]

6.8, if you shoot a green, you aren't a racist, you're a Denier... which might actually be worse

And it doesn't make you a mall ninja, but undoubtedly you're in the pay of Big Oil.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Mark@Sea

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Guilty as charged, you two.

[mikegideon]

6.8, if you shoot a green, you aren't a racist, you're a Denier... which might actually be worse

And it doesn't make you a mall ninja, but undoubtedly you're in the pay of Big Oil.

He's a BAD man

[mikegideon]

-1, really? Guess I need sensitivity training. Already had my granola and soy milk,

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Wasn't me. I'll eat granola, but no soy milk. That stuff is bad.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Big oil's got me bad. Non-ethanol only.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

-1, really? Guess I need sensitivity training. Already had my granola and soy milk,

Twarn't me.

I had to do occasional wrasslin with various races when working at the psychiatric hospital, .People of all kinds go crazy. As far as profiling in the "real world" I keep my eyes open for everybody. It is an open question about the odds of being attacked. It is so rare that one can't generalize from personal experience. Not enough numbers to be statistically valid.

Ain't sayin any color or group are little angels, but in my 62 years have never been accosted or threatened by a black man in the real world. I have been accosted or threatened by whiteys just like me on a few occasions. So if personal experience was a guide I'd keep a closer eye on whitey than blacks!

[mikegideon]

Twarn't me.

I had to do occasional wrasslin with various races when working at the psychiatric hospital, .People of all kinds go crazy. As far as profiling in the "real world" I keep my eyes open for everybody. It is an open question about the odds of being attacked. It is so rare that one can't generalize from personal experience. Not enough numbers to be statistically valid.

Ain't sayin any color or group are little angels, but in my 62 years have never been accosted or threatened by a black man in the real world. I have been accosted or threatened by whiteys just like me on a few occasions. So if personal experience was a guide I'd keep a closer eye on whitey than blacks!

Guess i should have used a smily, so everybody would know i was kidding one of my good friends. You gotta judge folks by the way they act. Criminals come in all forms. A lot of them wear suits.

[mikegideon]

Wasn't me. I'll eat granola, but no soy milk. That stuff is bad.

I know it wasn't you. I figure you got it, even without the smiley.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Guess i should have used a smily, so everybody would know i was kidding one of my good friends. You gotta judge folks by the way they act. Criminals come in all forms. A lot of them wear suits.

Hi Mike

I didn't take offense at anything you said and wasn't arguing. Guess somebody took offense unless maybe somebody just accidentally clicked the wrong part of the screen. It could happen.

Was mainly observing that some folk seem extra-vigilant watching other races, but the biggest danger is probably from whatever is the majority race wherever you happen to live. If 9 out of 10 people you see every day are white, then I'm guessing if you get attacked then the odds favor being attacked by a white guy. If 9 out of 10 people you see every day are black, then the odds get switched around.

[QuietDan]

-1, really? Guess I need sensitivity training. Already had my granola and soy milk,

Easy enough to fix . . .

[mikegideon]

Easy enough to fix . . .

. I do that a lot too.

[Mark@Sea]

Soy milk? SOY MILK?