Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[Mr. Brooks]

And that's why LEOs are the ones tasked to approach/pursue "suspicious" characters.

Where are you getting this? Everything I've read said that followed Martin and called the police, just like neighborhood watch is supposed to do.

He didn't chase him down the street or anything. Any it looks like Martin approached Zimmerman, not the other way around. But don't let that interrupt your witch hunt. Cheers!

[Mark@Sea]

Don't get too judgemental, far as I can see you're pretending to be unbiased.

[TMF]

Where are you getting this? Everything I've read said that followed Martin and called the police, just like neighborhood watch is supposed to do.

He didn't chase him down the street or anything. Any it looks like Martin approached Zimmerman, not the other way around. But don't let that interrupt your witch hunt. Cheers!

Witch hunt is a little dramatic and unnecessary. He is on the phone with 911 following him then getting out of his vehicle to pursue on foot. That is not the role of neighborhood watch. His duties were to call the police and that's all. Martin hadn't committed any crime. If he was burglarizing one of Zimmerman's neighbors my opinion would be the other way.

I welcome anyone here to just go out and start following someone at night who is minding their own business and see where that road leads you.

[TMF]

Don't get too judgemental, far as I can see you're pretending to be unbiased.

No, I'm very clear what my opinions are and why I have them. What ever biases I have I am aware of and will freely admit to you. One of those biases is against wanna be mall ninjas.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I have enough of a problem "policing" my own back yard. I don't intend on following where my abilities

might be limited. and I have had to go out back at night a bunch of times. I'm usually not thrilled at

having to do it.

From everything I read, I didn't get that he was a mall ninja. Of course, that doesn't mean very much.

[TMF]

That's right, but read post 972 again. We're good

It's still not clear, anywhere, whether he was pursuing him on foot. I gathered he was trying to get a sight on him, or

reading the street sign and returning to his truck when possibly assaulted.

He said on the 911 call that Treyvon was running. The operator asks if he is following. Zimmerman says "yes". Following a person that is running away equates to pursuit. Zimmerman appears to comply with the operators request to cease pursuit, but that is not a fact just yet that he did comply. It's just as possible that he blew off the operator as if he walked back to his truck.

[TMF]

From everything I read, I didn't get that he was a mall ninja. Of course, that doesn't mean very much.

I'm basing that assessment on life experience and he fits the profile of those types. I'm certain that his outlook on things have drastically changed from the moment he pulled that trigger and got to actually feel what it's like to take someone's life from them, and I'm guessing it didn't feel like he thought it would.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

We may be at a different timeline. I remember the 911 op say not to follow him and he said okay. I also

remember him saying something to the effect of getting out of his truck to look at the street sign when

he asked the police to meet him. That's when I am assuming the altercation happened, right after that.

I could have missed something.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I'm basing that assessment on life experience and he fits the profile of those types. I'm certain that his outlook on things have drastically changed from the moment he pulled that trigger and got to actually feel what it's like to take someone's life from them, and I'm guessing it didn't feel like he thought it would.

I understand where you're coming from, but even from life experiences, we can still come to the wrong conclusion,

occasionally. I'm just not going to paint that picture, because I don't know him and the media has done enough to

him.

[TMF]

I understand where you're coming from, but even from life experiences, we can still come to the wrong conclusion,

occasionally. I'm just not going to paint that picture, because I don't know him and the media has done enough to

him.

Oh absolutely. I could be wrong, I just don't think I am. The media has taken this way too far at this point, but white on black crime gets folks to click and tune in. The shootings in Kansas should take the limelight now. At least that one is a little more clear cut.

[Mr. Brooks]

No, I'm very clear what my opinions are and why I have them. What ever biases I have I am aware of and will freely admit to you. One of those biases is against wanna be mall ninjas.

I think Mark may have been talking to me with that post.

I'm glad you clarified your position. I have a bias against mall ninjas as well. If Zimmerman was simply trying to protect his neighborhood then I have no issues with him. However, if he was out looking for a fight then he gets whatever comes to him.

The term witch hunt was no more dramatic then the ones claiming Zimmerman was "stalking" Martin. I'm tired of hearing terms like that and I thought your pursue/confront comment was more of the same. It seems like I was mistaken, and I apologize for that.

[Mr. Brooks]

Oh absolutely. I could be wrong, I just don't think I am. The media has taken this way too far at this point, but white on black crime gets folks to click and tune in. The shootings in Kansas should take the limelight now. At least that one is a little more clear cut.

Tulsa, Oklahoma IIRC. Unless we are thinking of two different things.

[TMF]

Tulsa, Oklahoma IIRC. Unless we are thinking of two different things.

No, we're thinking of the same thing; I'm just real bad at geography.

[Magiccarpetrides]

When its all said and done I think we will find zimmerman was right and hopefully in a position to sue nbc for portraying him as a racist by editing the 911 recording and hopefully sue the very racist Al and Jesse for mental anguish if the pressure doesn't cause him to commit suicide first. This man has been horribly wronged by the media...even the enhanced police tapes clearly show blood on the back of his head consistent with his telling of events. This has become as bad as the duke lacrosse fiasco.

[Mr. Brooks]

No, we're thinking of the same thing; I'm just real bad at geography.

No worries. That situation does seem to be pretty straight forward. Hopefully that event wasn't a result of the Zimmerman case. And I really hope it isn't a sign of things to come.

I find it interesting that the news is reporting both shooters as white, the younger guy seems to have some native American or something in him.

[QuietDan]

Damn! This thread looks like it's going to top out over 1000 posts.

And this is a relatively small issue. It's a good thing we're not trying to achieve world peace here or something.

No one posting on this thread, as far as I know, is an eye-witness to the confrontation, nor a resident of the gated community in Sanford, Florida. Therefore, we are all getting any information we have through first-, second-, third- and fourth-hand reports, mostly through a clearly biased (one way or another) and flawed media. Talk about a dark, murky and distorted lens.

Be damned glad you are not a Sanford, Florida-based police officer, investigator, district attorney, elected public official, grand juror, juror, or judge involved in this case. What a stinking mess. Everyone is bringing their own background, biases, opinions and point of view to this, and that includes me. Lord only knows how this is all going to sort out.

[mikegideon]

It should be a small issue.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

And just think, Dan, if the media hadn't been so crooked in their reporting, we might not have ever learned

of it.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

What many people fail to realize is the comparison between blatant racism and it's cousin "prejudice." Seeing racism is easy to do and easy to deal with. Prejudice is not. It hides behind rhetoric and attitudes that people keep inside. It rears it's head in words like "they" or "them" when referring to a racial or ethnic group as if they are a monolithic group who all believe exactly the same way. This is the problem we see here. Sharpton and Jackson are talking about "them" when referring to whites, and many whites, including some here, are using the word "they" to refer to blacks in general...

Hi ETP, enjoyed your entire post.

I'm pessimistic and suspect that people will always have bias and prejudice, about SOMETHING OR THE OTHER. That bias and prejudice is difficult for a person to change within himself, and near-impossible to forcibly "educate out" of a person. Made especially difficult because it is easy to see bias and prejudice in others but difficult to see one's own bias for what it is. When people do change, they seem more likely to swap the old set of biases for a new set of biases, rather than shed them entirely.

Regardless, people by necessity must get along as best possible in spite of bias and prejudice. So I try to avoid accusing others of prejudice. I don't even know the magnitude and nature of my own prejudice. Doesn't seem productive to dwell on the shortcomings of others. Of course trying does not guarantee success.

Prejudice and bias is useful to discuss "in the abstract" though it seems unproductive to go around labeling specific individuals with bias. Have noticed that self-righteous individuals who habitually criticize others of being ignorant and screwed-up, tend to be woefully ignorant and screwed-up themselves, each in his own fashion. The worst critics rarely if ever see their own bias, or at least they rarely admit to it.

I welcome anyone here to just go out and start following someone at night who is minding their own business and see where that road leads you.

The term witch hunt was no more dramatic then the ones claiming Zimmerman was "stalking" Martin. I'm tired of hearing terms like that and I thought your pursue/confront comment was more of the same. It seems like I was mistaken, and I apologize for that.

Hi Mr Brooks

It may be a matter of semantics or point of view. I've used the stalking term while intending the exact same meaning that TMF 18B stated above. If Z's behavior made M think he was being stalked, then Z isn't necessarily guilty of anything except poor judgement, or maybe he was using good judgement for all I know. Ferinstance, if Z were to explain, "I wasn't stalking M. I was just following him." Which may be similar to, "I wasn't stalking that movie star. I was just trying really really hard to get a date." Or, "I'm not a prevert. I just like to take pictures of young girls in the park." All the statements may be entirely true from the speaker's point of view, though it could be easily interpreted otherwise by third parties.

No one posting on this thread, as far as I know, is an eye-witness to the confrontation, nor a resident of the gated community in Sanford, Florida. Therefore, we are all getting any information we have through first-, second-, third- and fourth-hand reports, mostly through a clearly biased (one way or another) and flawed media. Talk about a dark, murky and distorted lens.

Be damned glad you are not a Sanford, Florida-based police officer, investigator, district attorney, elected public official, grand juror, juror, or judge involved in this case. What a stinking mess. Everyone is bringing their own background, biases, opinions and point of view to this, and that includes me. Lord only knows how this is all going to sort out.

Agreed +1.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[East_TN_Patriot]

Good grief folks! A guy can't make any contribution to this thread without everyone going nuts and getting their panties in a wad. Go ahead and believe what you want about the law. If you don't want to listen to a guy who worked as a LEO in the very state this event took place, investigated several felony cases of battery, and trained new cops on the law, that's fine. We shall see what the grand jury says and that will be that. However, I assure you that in most places in this country, if you shoot someone just because they are punching you in the face, you are likely to be charged with manslaughter. Massad Ayoob runs down these sorts of scenarios all the time, and gun owners choose to ignore the reality of the law because they disagree with it in principle. If you want to take that gamble, have at it.

If you want to consider my general comments about bias, prejudice, and racism as a personal affront, was not my intent, nor was it meant specifically as a criticism against anyone in particular. People are making blanket statements about race, wondering why others are getting wound up over it, then get wound up over my comments pointing out the problems associated with blanket statements and where they come from. If folks want to keep talking about "them" and how "they" are bad people because "they are all" the same, then enjoy the discussion. Just don't be surprised when nothing changes in this world when it comes to race relations. These comments are not any different than the ones made about whites by Sharpton or Jackson. It's simply inaccurate and nonconstructive to stereotype people in society.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Hi ETP, enjoyed your entire post.

I'm pessimistic and suspect that people will always have bias and prejudice, about SOMETHING OR THE OTHER. That bias and prejudice is difficult for a person to change within himself, and near-impossible to forcibly "educate out" of a person. Made especially difficult because it is easy to see bias and prejudice in others but difficult to see one's own bias for what it is. When people do change, they seem more likely to swap the old set of biases for a new set of biases, rather than shed them entirely.

Regardless, people by necessity must get along as best possible in spite of bias and prejudice. So I try to avoid accusing others of prejudice. I don't even know the magnitude and nature of my own prejudice. Doesn't seem productive to dwell on the shortcomings of others. Of course trying does not guarantee success.

Prejudice and bias is useful to discuss "in the abstract" though it seems unproductive to go around labeling specific individuals with bias. Have noticed that self-righteous individuals who habitually criticize others of being ignorant and screwed-up, tend to be woefully ignorant and screwed-up themselves, each in his own fashion. The worst critics rarely if ever see their own bias, or at least they rarely admit to it.

Sure, I think what you are saying is accurate. In fact, when I teach my classes on race and crime, I start out by saying clearly that we all have biases in our lives, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Bias is nothing more than making an educated guess based on prior knowledge. When man first walked the earth, they had to develop some level of bias on what place would provide food, where water may be located, or which cave might have a bear in it. We all stereotype, and we all have some level of prejudice. Even I catch myself on occasion and I'd like to think I of all people would know better. The important thing to note is that virtually all of us have some level of prejudice in our minds and don't really realize it. As one person commented way earlier in this thread or a related one, many stereotypes and prejudices do have a kernel of truth to them. The problem is that we tend to take this kernel of truth that we have observed through some limited experience, expand it and apply it to others, and then develop general attitudes based on it. For instance, the hoodie issue in the Martin shooting is an example. Geraldo observed that gang thugs wear hoodies, so he made the leap of logic that if you see a black kid in a hoodie, they must be in a gang. Well, that on it's own seems absurd, but then think about how many times we all have made the comment, "if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck..." In reality, it was this simple bit of what I would call prejudice, that many people were calling racism. They were trying to argue that Zimmerman saw a black kid in a hoodie and automatically assumed he was a criminal. I don't believe the evidence bears out this accusation, which is a pretty obvious case of prejudice on their part (they automatically assume because a white guy calls the cops on a black kid that means he's racist). For those in the black community making this accusation, their beliefs have a kernel of truth. Some white folks really are racist, but they make the mistake of stereotyping and making prejudiced statements against whites in general. Obviously this works both ways. Others seem to have gotten all wound up over my comments, but all I was trying to point out is that this issue is more complicated about people being racist or not. It's about our stereotypes and prejudices, many of which are unrecognized and are many times a bigger problem. It's also about taking a moment to step outside of our own worldview and trying to see the situation from their perspective. Whether we think their perspective makes sense to us, it's as real to them as our perspective is to us.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I think I was the one who interjected bias into the mix, and I didn't consider it as an affront. Just my

opinion, ET. I also don't know what kind of charge he will be hit with, if any.

I thought your points on racism were well made. I just consider the use of the word to be over used

and the nature of the beast is usually, at least in this day and age, could be better served by stopping

the baiters from accusing it at every opportunity. It's getting to the point that "they", meaning Jackson

and Sharpton, have to look harder each time, and I think they picked the wrong situation to use it this

time. It's ironic that one class is accused of racism and you almost never hear it used with another.

Your point about using the words "they" or "them" is a possibility I never considered. I guess I should be

more careful in my usage of those words to not be construed as a racist.

Your point about assumptions is as good as any. Assumptions usually are ill founded unless they are

based on something bearing intelligence. Stereotyping usually gets anyone in trouble. What used to

be just innocent humor is now considered sinful.

Reminds me of a joke about this by Bob Alper. He goes around to all his families and friends during

Yom Kippur and says,"If there's anything I've said about you or to you that has hurt you or offended

you, you're too sensitive".

His joking referral to atonement. He's a funny Rabbi.

Edited April 9, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Oh Shoot]

....Reminds me of a joke about this by Bob Alper. He goes around to all his families and friends during

Yom Kippur and says,"If there's anything I've said about you or to you that has hurt you or offended

you, you're too sensitive".,,,

I have a fridge magnet given to me by an ex lady friend:

"We're been through so much together -- and most of it was your fault."

- OS

[Mark@Sea]

I have a fridge magnet given to me by an ex lady friend:

"We're been through so much together -- and most of it was your fault."

- OS

That is one of my favorite signs - along with the one that says "Friends welcome anytime - Family by appointment only"

[TMF]

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