Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[mikegideon]

If the language in the Florida law doesn't allow them to question a shooter's "fear for their life", then a true injustice could happen.

I can't agree with your version of injustice. From what we know right now, nobody had the right to physically assault the other. I think we lost the art of a gentleman's ass whippin' a long time ago.

[DaveTN]

If the language in the Florida law doesn't allow them to question a shooter's "fear for their life", then a true injustice could happen.

I can't agree with your version of injustice. From what we know right now, nobody had the right to physically assault the other. I think we lost the art of a gentleman's ass whippin' a long time ago.

Granted. We also lost the requirement of any escalation of force. We go right from a fist fight to a gun. I don’t think an innocent victim should have that requirement, but if you are going to go out trolling the neighborhood and engaging perceived bad guys, you should have some type of less lethal device just like the cops do.

[tnhawk]

If the language in the Florida law doesn't allow them to question a shooter's "fear for their life", then a true injustice could happen.

I can't agree with your version of injustice. From what we know right now, nobody had the right to physically assault the other. I think we lost the art of a gentleman's ass whippin' a long time ago.

It doesn't appear those involved were gentlemen.

[mikegideon]

Granted. We also lost the requirement of any escalation of force. We go right from a fist fight to a gun. I don’t think an innocent victim should have that requirement, but if you are going to go out trolling the neighborhood and engaging perceived bad guys, you should have some type of less lethal device just like the cops do.

I don't know. Again, the devil can be in the details. Not saying it happened this way, but if somebody snuck up behind a cop, sucker punched him, and then made it obvious that serious injury was the goal, the response may not be nonlethal. If the perp was going for his gun too, I'm not sure any cop would be trying to deploy his tazer.

Minute details can flip this thing one way or the other.

[mikegideon]

It doesn't appear those involved were gentlemen.

Yep. There was some bad parenting in there somewhere

[mikegideon]

I may have a sick sense of humor, but WTF?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Maybe I'm easily swayed. Many people posted diametrically opposed but decently logical opinions on this thread. Each sounds entirely logical and convincing while reading each individual message. What little I know of the facts so far can be made to fit the many different accounts of who is to blame, or what percentage of blame to assign. It would be a shame for folks to get mad over this issue when they could reserve their mad for important controversies such as sports or religion!

It could be a little of lots of things. Z's judgement could be faulty in some of his acts. Similarly M's judgement could be faulty in other acts. Z most likely perceived himself a "good guy" that nobody would ever be threatened by. But that doesn't prevent M from interpreting the same actions as immediate threat or deadly insult. There ARE cultural differences. You can act or say something entirely appropriate in one culture, and then do the same 10 miles down the road and get yer butt whipped for it. It goes both ways, whether yer traveling from downtown out into the country, or traveling from the country to downtown.

Am curious if the "rules" are different because of the "gated community" aspect? VIdeo I've seen, just looks like a middlin apartment complex. Is a gated community just an apartment complex or a townhouse row with a fence? I don't get out much. There is or was a "gated community" a couple miles from my house that looked like a cheap townhouse row, but it had a fence, gate and manned guard shack last time I looked. I drive past there once a week but haven't given the place a glance for years.

Does Z's gated community have a 24 hour guard shack and a couple of security guards? If not, then what the heck good is a gated community if nobody watches the gate?

I haven't counted, but there must be 50 houses on my street, and maybe a couple of hundred houses located in such a way that it wouldn't be surprising if a neighbor I don't know decided to take a walk up my street. Streets are public places. I'm not gonna start creeping around on strangers walking straight up my street unless they are acting DANG weird. Maybe when I take my walks some of the neighbors think I look really weird. As far as I can tell if Z was in my neighborhood and he acted thataway to people peaceably walking a public road, I would most likely consider him a complete mall ninja moron, and IMO if he was to make a habit of acting thataway on a public road he would probably be breaking some laws. Not to mention that eventually one of my redneck neighbors would get mad and maybe teach him some respect in terms he could understand. For instance if it was a dark and rainy night and Z or M went running in-between two houses, somebody just might shoot his butt. They might figure Z and M are partners and shoot them both.

But maybe the rules are entirely different in Z's "gated community". Dunno. Makes it difficult for me to judge his actions. Don't neighborhood watch people at least wear some semblance of a uniform or at least a fancy armband and hat? If they don't, they ought to. Just to give strangers a little bit of a clue they might be dealing with a law abiding citizen rather than a demented creep.

And therein lies another potential source of confusion. If the rules really are different in a gated community and you should expect as a normal course of affairs that random strangers will routinely jump out of their truck and follow you around, then if M grew up living on public streets then he wouldn't have understood that difference.

As for your self righteous indignation for those who haven't joined in yet, save it. I mind my own business until I know what is going on then I decide. I have kept up with this, I have read the media's made up stuff, twisted stuff, and saw the things they have left out because it didn't fit what they want it to say. The big thing for me is how did a fight even start with the billion or so eye witnesses standing around them, oh wait none of us were there. Now I will go back to watching and listening as my Father once told me I should do in order to learn.

Thanks for contributing, Joe. I'm making a joke, but there is the contradiction in forums-- I readily admit that the wisest people lurk and rarely comment. On the other hand if some people were not willing to sacrifice, shamelessly displaying stupidity for all to see, then wise lurkers wouldn't have anything to read!

Edited March 31, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I may have a sick sense of humor, but WTF?

The mere fact that these bastiches are remotely involved speaks of an agenda. An obvious agenda. Even

NAACP former leaders have spoken out against this kind of stuff. All they want is to incite riots. They

want "Social Justice", nothing resembling justice.

[mikegideon]

Here's a little real world. I just got a call, and one of my transmitter sites has been vandalized AGAIN. Not sure if there was any theft involved yet, or the extent of the damage.

Will I call Metro? Probably not. Never worked before. Haven't been able to get them to show up the last couple of times. Would i chase the little bastards down if I saw them? Y'all speculate. I'm off to repair the damage now.

[CQB Elite]

One glaring assumption, and one crucial step omitted.

The assumption is that asking someone what they are doing is tantamount to assault

The omission is what happened between 3 and 4. All physical evidence, witness statements and police reports are consistent with step 3.5 being Martin physically assaulting Zimmerman.

With this as an example, I could go down to the credit union and make a withdrawal, and get shot dead for it. We'll just assume I have an account there, and omit the part where I'm using a gun instead of a withdrawal slip.

Hey, this is a fun game. Anybody else want to play?

Bravo!

It benefits the poster argument if he leaves steps out or ASSUMES other parts.

[CQB Elite]

Lester,

Great comment on your observation of the neighborhood. There is a trend in S. Florida of taking older apartment complexes, remodeling them and selling the units as "condos". In fact this is what happened to the apartment complex in Sunrise (Ft. Lauderdale) we lived in while I was working out of the Miami Field Office. The complex was small enough that we knew when a strange vehicle or person was on property. The property was gated and had a privacy fence around all but the canal side.

[Erik88]

I honestly don't see how this case could ever go to trial. There is no chance of finding a jury who doesn't already have knowledge about the case.

[mikegideon]

I honestly don't see how this case could ever go to trial. There is no chance of finding a jury who doesn't already have knowledge about the case.

There have been several cases like that. OJ, off the top of my head.

[DaveTN]

Bravo!

It benefits the poster argument if he leaves steps out or ASSUMES other parts.

Hey, with your extensive travels through the Florida legal community can you fill us in on Angela Corey? She says she is not likely to need a Grand Jury to make the decision for her.

So is she going to just come in and shut this thing down cold, or is there a possibility this may actually be a crime in Florida and she is going to proceed without a Grand Jury?

[mikegideon]

I figure if she doesn't charge him, there will be a heap of 'splaining to do. Gonna get more interesting before it goes away.

[TMF]

I honestly don't see how this case could ever go to trial. There is no chance of finding a jury who doesn't already have knowledge about the case.

Orange County is right next door to Seminole. They were able to find a jury that wouldn't convict Casey Anthony despite the media circus that went on for ALOT longer than this.

[TMF]

Maybe I'm easily swayed. Many people posted diametrically opposed but decently logical opinions on this thread. Each sounds entirely logical and convincing while reading each individual message. What little I know of the facts so far can be made to fit the many different accounts of who is to blame, or what percentage of blame to assign. It would be a shame for folks to get mad over this issue when they could reserve their mad for important controversies such as sports or religion!

It could be a little of lots of things. Z's judgement could be faulty in some of his acts. Similarly M's judgement could be faulty in other acts. Z most likely perceived himself a "good guy" that nobody would ever be threatened by. But that doesn't prevent M from interpreting the same actions as immediate threat or deadly insult. There ARE cultural differences. You can act or say something entirely appropriate in one culture, and then do the same 10 miles down the road and get yer butt whipped for it. It goes both ways, whether yer traveling from downtown out into the country, or traveling from the country to downtown.

Am curious if the "rules" are different because of the "gated community" aspect? VIdeo I've seen, just looks like a middlin apartment complex. Is a gated community just an apartment complex or a townhouse row with a fence? I don't get out much. There is or was a "gated community" a couple miles from my house that looked like a cheap townhouse row, but it had a fence, gate and manned guard shack last time I looked. I drive past there once a week but haven't given the place a glance for years.

Does Z's gated community have a 24 hour guard shack and a couple of security guards? If not, then what the heck good is a gated community if nobody watches the gate?

I haven't counted, but there must be 50 houses on my street, and maybe a couple of hundred houses located in such a way that it wouldn't be surprising if a neighbor I don't know decided to take a walk up my street. Streets are public places. I'm not gonna start creeping around on strangers walking straight up my street unless they are acting DANG weird. Maybe when I take my walks some of the neighbors think I look really weird. As far as I can tell if Z was in my neighborhood and he acted thataway to people peaceably walking a public road, I would most likely consider him a complete mall ninja moron, and IMO if he was to make a habit of acting thataway on a public road he would probably be breaking some laws. Not to mention that eventually one of my redneck neighbors would get mad and maybe teach him some respect in terms he could understand. For instance if it was a dark and rainy night and Z or M went running in-between two houses, somebody just might shoot his butt. They might figure Z and M are partners and shoot them both.

But maybe the rules are entirely different in Z's "gated community". Dunno. Makes it difficult for me to judge his actions. Don't neighborhood watch people at least wear some semblance of a uniform or at least a fancy armband and hat? If they don't, they ought to. Just to give strangers a little bit of a clue they might be dealing with a law abiding citizen rather than a demented creep.

And therein lies another potential source of confusion. If the rules really are different in a gated community and you should expect as a normal course of affairs that random strangers will routinely jump out of their truck and follow you around, then if M grew up living on public streets then he wouldn't have understood that difference.

Thanks for contributing, Joe. I'm making a joke, but there is the contradiction in forums-- I readily admit that the wisest people lurk and rarely comment. On the other hand if some people were not willing to sacrifice, shamelessly displaying stupidity for all to see, then wise lurkers wouldn't have anything to read!

Lester, to answer about the "gated" community aspect of this case, it was a misleading representation from the press which I interpret was to stoke the racial aspect of this; "Man shoots black youth in gated community."

Maybe not everyone would make that leap, but many would. I used to live in Sanford about a half mile down the road from this place in another "gated community." Just like this one, it was just a complex with key card access. I was far from well-to-do at that point in my life.

The location of Twin Lakes is right next to a major mall and the interstate that goes east/west through central Florida. Due to the high speed avenue of egress and the existence of the mall it makes it an attractive area for low level criminal activity. It's almost a requirement for keeping those complexes gated in that area to keep the riff raff out, but it doesn't make it fancy as the media presents it to be... Understandably there are certain connotations that come with the term "gated community" and I believe the media has used that to their advantage.

Edited March 31, 2012 by TMF 18B

[CQB Elite]

Hey, with your extensive travels through the Florida legal community can you fill us in on Angela Corey? She says she is not likely to need a Grand Jury to make the decision for her.

So is she going to just come in and shut this thing down cold, or is there a possibility this may actually be a crime in Florida and she is going to proceed without a Grand Jury?

The conviction rate in her circuit is way up but its mostly juvenile minority males that she is locking up. Thats why the NAACP and SLC are not happy about her appointment to this case. She has no high profile cases, except Christian Fernandez. That case is not high profile for what Fernandez did, but for the fact that he was 12 years old and Corey charged him as an adult. IMHO- I imagine she hopes the Zimmerman case will draw the heat off of her from the Fernandez case.

Had she been the prosecutor in the Ted Bundy or Danny Rolling cases I'd be more confident in her skills. Even Marsha Clark was considered tough- right up to the second she asked OJ to try on the glove.

I don't know why you are even still spending time in this thread. I figured you'd rather spend your time buying a hoodie, Skittles and tea and getting your favorite chair ready to watch that child murdering Zimmerman on trial....

[Caster]

Okay, I haven't been following this case or this thread for that matter but I am curious....If this guy gets acquitted, think there's be a Rodney King style riot down there?

[TMF]

Okay, I haven't been following this case or this thread for that matter but I am curious....If this guy gets acquitted, think there's be a Rodney King style riot down there?

No. There will be protests, maybe some car burning but nothing like the LA riots.

[Caster]

No. There will be protests, maybe some car burning but nothing like the LA riots.

I dunno, them people aren't very smart. In large groups they get pretty brave.

[Garufa]

Okay, I haven't been following this case or this thread for that matter but I am curious....If this guy gets acquitted, think there's be a Rodney King style riot down there?

Maybe not down there but somewhere. As much as this has been hyped and twisted there will be riots somewhere if a trial results in acquittal or not guilty.

Then we can watch all the oppressed loot grocery and appliance stores.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Garufa

[Erik88]

Okay, I haven't been following this case or this thread for that matter but I am curious....If this guy gets acquitted, think there's be a Rodney King style riot down there?

I'll be right in the middle of it if they do. That thought has already crossed my mind.

[Oh Shoot]

I'll be right in the middle of it if they do. That thought has already crossed my mind.

Just burn a pile of pallets out front; they'll assume you've already been visited.

- OS

[Erik88]

Just burn a pile of pallets out front; they'll assume you've already been visited.

- OS