Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[TMF]

Personally, I think that you are out of line here. Robert said nothing about race in his comment. If one pays attention to the news they'd find that 17 year olds do murder.

Not what I was referring to; read the transcripts of the 911 call.

Robert made it clear that 17 year olds murder and therefore that somehow justifies Zimmerman intervening.

[Smith]

Not what I was referring to; read the transcripts of the 911 call.

Robert made it clear that 17 year olds murder and therefore that somehow justifies Zimmerman intervening.

So you don't like that reasoning going one direction, but you then apply that same reasoning to condem Zimmerman as a murderer?

[TMF]

Could very well be, but when every story I've read starts off with a racial slant that is errant in the facts leads me to defer judgment till more facts are available. He wasn't charged and has only become an issue due to the ongoing erroneous claim that this was a black child shot by a white man. Zimmerman is clearly hispanic by his statements and photo from a multicultural family.

Being Hispanic or any other decent other than European doesn't mean you can't be racist by default.

[TMF]

So you don't like that reasoning going one direction, but you then apply that same reasoning to condem Zimmerman as a murderer?

Don't like what reasoning?

I think Zimmerman thought the boy was suspicious because he was black, as is evident by his comments on the transcript. I think he murdered him because he is trigger happy and a wanna be, and perhaps the young man attempted to defend himself from Zimmerman's aggressive actions.... Such as stalking him for blocks, getting out of his car and confronting him. If that had been any of us we would respond to such action with force.

[MikePapa1]

There are several 911 tapes. I heard one from a witness who said the youth was yelling for Mr. Zimmerman to "stop" and yelling "help." Then in the background you hear a gunshot. Then the witness says something to the effect of "Oh my God he's killed him."

In my view, based upon what I know, this has absolutely nothing to do with standing your ground. This has to do with a would be vigilante gunning down an unarmed teen holding nothing more than a bag of skittles and a drink. I heard a bit a go that it's going to the Grand Jury, we'll see what they make of it. As I see it now it looks very much like a murder.

[RobertNashville]

So then why the comments on his parents? What bearing do other cases have on this one that would make you believe that this young man was anything BUT a good kid?

What could this young man be doing on a public sidewalk only yards from his house that was so criminal that Zimmerman had to intervene before the police arrived? Loitering? Jaywalking? Wearing white after labor day? If he had waited the police would have simply questioned the teen and found out his dad lives there. That would have been the end of it. Instead the young man is dead.

I don't have to worry about guilty or innocent on this guy. I'm not a representative of the government nor am I going to be sitting on a jury in Sanford. This guy took a young man's life because he was trigger happy. He will be convicted of some form of homicide and I hope some good 'ol prison justice permanently solves this problem in the end.

No kidding, read the transcript of Zimmerman's call from start to finish. It would blow my mind if someone could possibly ignore the obvious.

My comments about his parents are simply based on a half-century hearing news reports of such things and seeing family and friends defending little Johnny or Jenny - little Johnny or Jenny could be serial ax murderers caught with a bloody ax in their hand and many family and friends; yes...even parents will be in front of the cameras telling the world how "good" their kid is. My point, which you obviously missed, is that what this young man's parents has to say about him is worthless in terms of determining anything about the situation.

I'm not defending or condemning anyone - if you believe you've got if figured out based on the 911 call that's fine; I just don't agree and what blows my mind, to borrow a phrase, is how someone who wasn't there can be so iron clad sure about who was trigger happy, what this kid was doing and even exactly what the police would have done "if only".

Edited March 20, 2012 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

Not what I was referring to; read the transcripts of the 911 call.

Robert made it clear that 17 year olds murder and therefore that somehow justifies Zimmerman intervening.

I said NOTHING of the kind. You seem to have a very unique way of reading what you want to read rather than what was actually said.

How about you let ALL THE FACTS come out before you make up your mind and BEFORE you start arguing with people just because they don't happen to see things the same way you see them.

Edited March 20, 2012 by RobertNashville

[mikegideon]

There are several 911 tapes. I heard one from a witness who said the youth was yelling for Mr. Zimmerman to "stop" and yelling "help." Then in the background you hear a gunshot. Then the witness says something to the effect of "Oh my God he's killed him."

In my view, based upon what I know, this has absolutely nothing to do with standing your ground. This has to do with a would be vigilante gunning down an unarmed teen holding nothing more than a bag of skittles and a drink. I heard a bit a go that it's going to the Grand Jury, we'll see what they make of it. As I see it now it looks very much like a murder.

I heard the same tape, and it does look like murder. I'm just gonna leave my rope in the closet, and let the court sort it out.

[MikePapa1]

As I said, Mike, as I see it now. I always try to let the courts sort these things out. Be that as it may, I'm surprised that Mr. Zimmerman hasn't been arrested. There's certainly probable cause. Under any circumstances, Mr. Zimmerman wasn't "standing his ground," he pursued this teenager after having been told be the dispatcher not to do so. Clearly, under any circumstances he was the aggressor.

[mikegideon]

It's a media frenzy right now. Stand your ground may not be mentioned anywhere except in the frenzy. The fact that he wasn't arrested adds to my speculation. Racist cops, or something at the scene that's not being told by our fine journalists? It doesn't add up, and probably won't until we hear from somebody other than the Anderson cooper types.

[Guest peacexxl]

So you prefer the guilty till proven innocent system. Interesting.

No I prefer the let's find out by way of a trial system, rather than taking the guys word for it because he is the one that is still alive. Last time I checked, being charged doesn't make you guilty, it just means you have a right to a fair and speedy trial.

[Links2k]

Could very well be, but when every story I've read starts off with a racial slant that is errant in the facts leads me to defer judgment till more facts are available. He wasn't charged and has only become an issue due to the ongoing erroneous claim that this was a black child shot by a white man. Zimmerman is clearly hispanic by his statements and photo from a multicultural family. While he may very well be guilty of stupidity and possibly chargeable offenses, when a story is this factually errant and emotionally driven, justice will not be the outcome as evidenced by the knee jerk condemnations in just this detached thread on a gun board in TN.

As to the directions of the 911 operator, they are also notoriously documented as recommending against any individual response, preferring only police action to self defense. They are not legal advisors nor are they informed enough to make any judgment calls or recommendations.

So, we must assume the shooter committed no crime while also assuming that the teen did do something out of order simply because he is dead. Neighbors claim to have heard the boy screaming for help. On one 911 call while the neighbor is talking you can hear the boy screaming for help in the background before you hear the shot.

As for race. It is not important the kids or the shooters color. I am certain that losing a child rips the heart right out of a parents chest regardless their color.

My only issue with this mess is that the shooter never said that the kid was doing anything wrong. The shooter never mentioned that the kid approached him or anyones private property. I would hope that any young man would disengage as much as possible if he is being approached by a weirdo. I would also want that young man to defend himself if he were cornered by that same weirdo. Unfortunately it sounds like a parent would lose a son because some d*ck with a gun decides that he wants to be judge, jury and executioner.

Hopefully when we get the facts the shooter turns out to be a neighborhood hero that prevented a home invasion or mass killing.

[Links2k]

Don't like what reasoning?

I think Zimmerman thought the boy was suspicious because he was black, as is evident by his comments on the transcript. I think he murdered him because he is trigger happy and a wanna be, and perhaps the young man attempted to defend himself from Zimmerman's aggressive actions.... Such as stalking him for blocks, getting out of his car and confronting him. If that had been any of us we would respond to such action with force.

I agree, but we would have been able to meet him the the appropriate amount of force necessary to still be breathing today.

[Links2k]

There are several 911 tapes. I heard one from a witness who said the youth was yelling for Mr. Zimmerman to "stop" and yelling "help." Then in the background you hear a gunshot. Then the witness says something to the effect of "Oh my God he's killed him."

In my view, based upon what I know, this has absolutely nothing to do with standing your ground. This has to do with a would be vigilante gunning down an unarmed teen holding nothing more than a bag of skittles and a drink. I heard a bit a go that it's going to the Grand Jury, we'll see what they make of it. As I see it now it looks very much like a murder.

I heard that same tape this morning. Sounds ugly for the shooter.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yep it sounds at least that the "neighborhood watchman" acted with poor judgement. Regardless whether the young fella was a criminal or pure as the driven snow, if cornered then any normal fella might put up a fight. So even if the neighborhood watchman may have shot in "self defense" after getting into a scuffle, it sounds like the neighborhood watchman really pushed it in order to get into that scuffle.

The news articles blame the FL stand your ground law, but maybe the local popo and DA just didn't figure they had enough evidence to win in front of a jury? It doesn't mention how crime-ridden the neighborhood happens to be. If that neighborhood has a serious crime problem then possibly they couldn't get a conviction even if the neighborhood watchman is guilty as sin, because of jury nullification? In a high-crime neighborhood, such might be the case regardless of any stand your ground law?

They were in a gated community according to news reports.

Hi Links2k

Yep, inadequate details. If the kid was cutting thru the gated community on the way home-- Are there gates on both sides of the development? Did the kid live in the gated community? The articles do not say that the kid snuck in. Maybe the guard knew the kid and let him in? Or maybe the gate wasn't guarded? What point is a gated community if any random unidentified person can just stroll in? All kinds of bad things could happen. Kids from down the street might decide to ride bikes into that gated community. Maybe at halloween even go trick-or-treating in the gated community. How low-class can ya get? With security that lax the residents might as well live on the "outside" with the commoners.

In chatt a couple years ago was a story about a home invasion and murder that happened in a gated community. Maybe such happen all the time? Aren't gated communities typically a fairly recent phenom sparked by lots of crime in a neighborhood? If there is hardly any crime, then why would people pay the big bucks to live in a gated community?

Presumably a local murder case would draw jury from a county-wide base? If there is lots of crime in that county-- If all it takes is one "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" juror to nullify the verdict-- I suppose prosecutors ought to try to prosecute any likely case regardless of odds of conviction, but ambitious prosecutors who want to become mayor, governor, or congresscritter, supposedly pay close attention to the win/loss ratio because if he wins near 100 percent it is a political asset in future elections.

[Stegall Law Firm]

Hopefully when we get the facts the shooter turns out to be a neighborhood hero that prevented a home invasion or mass killing.

Seeing as how the young man was unarmed, I wouldn't hold my breath. He was just trying to get home.

[Links2k]

My comments about his parents are simply based on a half-century hearing news reports of such things and seeing family and friends defending little Johnny or Jenny - little Johnny or Jenny could be serial ax murderers caught with a bloody ax in their hand and many family and friends; yes...even parents will be in front of the cameras telling the world how "good" their kid is. My point, which you obviously missed, is that what this young man's parents has to say about him is worthless in terms of determining anything about the situation.

I'm not defending or condemning anyone - if you believe you've got if figured out based on the 911 call that's fine; I just don't agree and what blows my mind, to borrow a phrase, is how someone who wasn't there can be so iron clad sure about who was trigger happy, what this kid was doing and even exactly what the police would have done "if only".

Good point. I know that here in Memphis none of our crime is commited by bad people. They were all good boys according to momma, but this shooting does not sound like that's the case. I hope that I am wrong. This will be tragic for everyone.

[mikegideon]

I heard that same tape this morning. Sounds ugly for the shooter.

It does, if it was the kid doing the screaming. No doubt that the wannabe was way out of line by confronting him to begin with. That still doesn't tell us what happened in the confrontation. It looks the same to me as it does to you, from a distance.

[Moped]

I did hear that when the first officer rolled up, he noted that the shooter's shirt was wet and covered with grass on the back and that he had grass in his hair, as if he had been rolling on the ground in a fight. Still, the shooter should have followed the directions of the E911 Operator. This really smells IMO. The Shooter pushed it way, way further than it needed to go and a kid ended up dead. Obviously, none here knows the facts, just all the grandstanding crap being thrown out there by the news media. But I'd be real surprised if this guy isn't charged with something.

[TMF]

I did hear that when the first officer rolled up, he noted that the shooter's shirt was wet and covered with grass on the back and that he had grass in his hair, as if he had been rolling on the ground in a fight. Still, the shooter should have followed the directions of the E911 Operator. This really smells IMO. The Shooter pushed it way, way further than it needed to go and a kid ended up dead. Obviously, none here knows the facts, just all the grandstanding crap being thrown out there by the news media. But I'd be real surprised if this guy isn't charged with something.

The latest information is that the young man was on the phone with his girlfriend during this whole in incident; cell phone records verify such. She claims that the young man had told her that a strange man was following him and he attempted to lose him on the way home. She is just now being interviewed. ABC has the tape of her interview.

It sounds that when the young man tried to lose him Zimmerman exited his car to track him down. The girlfriend said she could hear Zimmerman confront him. A scuffle ensued and that's where I'm guessing Zimmerman got scuffed up. Sounds like the kid was defending himself from an attacker. That attacker was probably losing and then felt justified in shooting an unarmed young man who he initiated confrontation with.

I'm not defending or condemning anyone - if you believe you've got if figured out based on the 911 call that's fine; I just don't agree and what blows my mind, to borrow a phrase, is how someone who wasn't there can be so iron clad sure about who was trigger happy, what this kid was doing and even exactly what the police would have done "if only".

I think OJ killed his wife, Casey Anthony killed her child, Michael Jackson raped little boys, and Josh Powell killed his wife. I can say that since I'm not on a jury and I'm not a judge. It is unreasonable to think that most people don't reserve judgement for those involved in such incidents where guilt is likely. If I had to be on a jury I wouldn't be so quick to judge, but I'm not. So I think this walking wag-bag is guilty as sin. If you disagree then great. If you think I shouldn't form my opinions you can respectfully piss off.

Edited March 21, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Smith]

The latest information is that the young man was on the phone with his girlfriend during this whole in incident; cell phone records verify such. She claims that the young man had told her that a strange man was following him and he attempted to lose him on the way home. She is just now being interviewed. ABC has the tape of her interview.

It sounds that when the young man tried to lose him Zimmerman exited his car to track him down. The girlfriend said she could hear Zimmerman confront him. A scuffle ensued and that's where I'm guessing Zimmerman got scuffed up. Sounds like the kid was defending himself from an attacker. That attacker was probably losing and then felt justified in shooting an unarmed young man who he initiated confrontation with.

I think OJ killed his wife, Casey Anthony killed her child, Michael Jackson raped little boys, and Josh Powell killed his wife. I can say that since I'm not on a jury and I'm not a judge. It is unreasonable to think that most people don't reserve judgement for those involved in such incidents where guilt is likely. If I had to be on a jury I wouldn't be so quick to judge, but I'm not. So I think this walking wag-bag is guilty as sin. If you disagree then great. If you think I shouldn't form my opinions you can respectfully piss off.

I bet you're a joy to be around!

[eapking]

Apparently Zimmerman was a frequent caller to 911. 50 times in 2011? This guy had issues. Sounds like he was pursuing, which is a hell of a lot different than "stand your ground".

[Stegall Law Firm]

I gave a brief interview this afternoon on the Memphis Fox station about this case, it'll be on tonight at 10. We talked about deadly force laws and what might happen in this situation under Tennessee law. I think dude will get indicted. Like someone said, he accosted the kid, kid fought back, dude shot him. That's just not self defense. You can't seek the threat out then claim you were in fear for your life.

[Links2k]

Apparently Zimmerman was a frequent caller to 911. 50 times in 2011? This guy had issues. Sounds like he was pursuing, which is a hell of a lot different than "stand your ground".

I saw that on the news earllier today. It was just a matter of time before he flipped out on someone.

[TMF]

Like someone said, he accosted the kid, kid fought back, dude shot him. That's just not self defense. You can't seek the threat out then claim you were in fear for your life.

Seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to me. I heard about this story before it broke nationally. There weren't many facts other than the young man wasn't armed. I figured there was more to the story; the kid was probably up to no good or something like that. Then it broke nationally and the 911 transcripts came out. At that point the intent of Zimmerman became clear. Now paired with the new evidence of the girlfriend listening to the whole incident it is beyond clear what transpired. This guy will soon know the racial utopia that is the Florida prison system.