Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If they do then they'll likely find themselves in front of a jury. That's why I find this case so interesting in regards to where self defense ends and reckless behavior begins.

No matter how this ends up it should be a thought provoking case for the carry community, especially because there ARE those amongst us that consider themselves commissioned super heroes upon receipt of their carry permit.

In fact, what is misunderstood is whether there was reckless behaviour and whether it was before or after

the alleged self defense. I don't know.

Maybe there are a few super troopers in our community. They will be weeded out, somehow or another.

Don't just assume this is the case here.

[mikegideon]

This is interesting to me. I hit the Fox News site last night to see how they were spinning this. I couldn't find zip.

Erik was right. Best source seems to be the Orlando paper.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It had some interesting stuff. Fox isn't doing too well on this. I think the internet is breaking more news

than anyone. At least the news agencies, including Orlando. The TV seems to be dead, except propaganda.

[mcurrier]

Former NAACP leader accuses Sharpton and Jackson of ‘exploiting’ Trayvon Martin

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

[Guest 6.8 AR]

There's another article that has Martin's tweets.

[QuietDan]

As messy as all this discussion is, we're covering a lot of ground. . . .

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Either that or this young man just spontaneously decided to commit a random felony assault against an upstanding citizen.

Yep, the realm of pure speculation on the POSSIBLE range of motivations from either party. Though if Zimmerman hadn't pushed it, seems vanishingly unlikely that there would have been an altercation. If I see somebody "suspicious looking" walking up my street, maybe if I was feeling real brave I'd go out and stand in the yard and say, "howdy" and try to find out if it is a neighbor. But sure as hell would not start dogging the guy up the street. The "spidey sense" has never tingled bad enough to call 911 just because somebody is walking up my street, but I would do so if the situation warranted.

Some upstanding citizens look pretty rough. If I've been programming against a deadline and haven't shaved for three days then I might walk out into my yard in dirty clothes and look to some folks more like a dangerous derelict than upstanding citizen. A few years ago was out standing in the front yard after dark and a middle-age bearded dude from up the street I'd seen a few times was walking up the street. I said howdy but he seemed preoccupied and didn't respond. A few hours later in the wee hours there were cop cars and swat walking up'n'down the street toting AR's. Turns out the feller had provoked some kind of armed stand-off situation and had to be removed from his house and toted off. Can't recall whether it was mental illness or the guy was just fried too many days on meth. Anyway, in that case a few hours before his standoff, it could have turned out bad if I'd been more insistent engaging my neighbor. And maybe it would have been better not even to say, "Howdy." If whatever set him off a few hours later, maybe "howdy" would have been good enough to set him off.

Just ain't a good idea to be following strangers around acting creepy.

Martin may have thought zimmerman was a "typical SOB adult authority figure" who deserved a beat-down on general principle. Then again Martin may have thought he was being stalked by a dangerous S&M homo prevert, another John Wayne Gacy.

[TMF]

In fact, what is misunderstood is whether there was reckless behaviour and whether it was before or after

the alleged self defense. I don't know.

Maybe there are a few super troopers in our community. They will be weeded out, somehow or another.

Don't just assume this is the case here.

I'm also not going to assume that an adult that shot an unarmed minor did nothing wrong.

I am making reasonable assumptions based on the 911 tape. To assume that Treyon just spontaneously assaulted someone is harder to swallow than assuming that Zimmerman did nothing to provoke him after being on tape stalking him. It just doesn't pass a common sense test. If not for that tape I would probably make an assumption that Treyvon was up to no good since people don't usually get shot for no reason at all.

So at that point an investigator should be trying to both prove and disprove those reasonable assumptions. I have no reason to believe they weren't doing that already other than media accounts that may or may not be true.

This should have been destined for a grand jury from the start.

[CQB Elite]

Depending on what is learned of the "legality" of the shoot itself-- Mere ignorant speculation on some possibilities-- Intimidation, Stalking, or Reckless Endangerment. Possibly even Aggravated Assault if zimmerman had been following Martin in a creepy fashion and then made it "too easy" for Martin to become aware that not only was Martin being stalked by a creepy dude, but also aware of being stalked by a creepy dude with a pistol.

It would be very hard to prove assault in this case because one of the parties is deceased. In Florida there are 3 elements to assault and all three MUST be present:

1. Intentional, unlawful threat, by word or act, to do violence to another

2. Coupled with an apparent ability to do so

3. Must create a well founded fear in the person that violence is imminent

Trayvon cannot testify that he saw the gun and was scared. The defense CAN show (thru the responding officer's report) that Zimmerman showed evidence that he had been attacked. Now I ask you- would a scared person attack someone that had a gun or would they run away?

[mikegideon]

Wasn't Zimmerman carrying a PF9? That gun is REAL concealable. It's very likely that Martin didn't see it, since you are REQUIRED by law to conceal your weapon in Florida.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I agree. For all we know the police did investigate. They did come to a conclusion, just not a popular one.

What that investigation entailed, I don't know, but it seems to be they had information that showed them

reason to not pursue anything more. Does anyone know if the local DA got the info? Wouldn't that be normal

for him to make the decision to go to a grand jury?

There's a lot we still don't know, or, at least, I don't know.

[mikegideon]

I agree. For all we know the police did investigate. They did come to a conclusion, just not a popular one.

What that investigation entailed, I don't know, but it seems to be they had information that showed them

reason to not pursue anything more. Does anyone know if the local DA got the info? Wouldn't that be normal

for him to make the decision to go to a grand jury?

There's a lot we still don't know, or, at least, I don't know.

Did you read the police report?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I read a few things. I thought so. Hell, at this point in this, I'm lost

Edited March 27, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Guest 6.8 AR]

All I see

I'm also not going to assume that an adult that shot an unarmed minor did nothing wrong.

I am making reasonable assumptions based on the 911 tape. To assume that Treyon just spontaneously assaulted someone is harder to swallow than assuming that Zimmerman did nothing to provoke him after being on tape stalking him. It just doesn't pass a common sense test. If not for that tape I would probably make an assumption that Treyvon was up to no good since people don't usually get shot for no reason at all.

So at that point an investigator should be trying to both prove and disprove those reasonable assumptions. I have no reason to believe they weren't doing that already other than media accounts that may or may not be true.

This should have been destined for a grand jury from the start.

What about the audio from Stormfront.org? Is that one different from what you heard? That's the only one I heard

and I can draw a "reasonable" assumption that is different from yours. I may just be looking at this from a

different perspective. Ya think?

[TMF]

I agree. For all we know the police did investigate. They did come to a conclusion, just not a popular one.

What that investigation entailed, I don't know, but it seems to be they had information that showed them

reason to not pursue anything more. Does anyone know if the local DA got the info? Wouldn't that be normal

for him to make the decision to go to a grand jury?

There's a lot we still don't know, or, at least, I don't know.

Yes, all this was going on. I had always assumed that an indictment was imminent.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Wasn't Zimmerman carrying a PF9? That gun is REAL concealable. It's very likely that Martin didn't see it, since you are REQUIRED by law to conceal your weapon in Florida.

Hi Mike

Was purely speculating and labeled it as such (rather than fact). Perhaps am recalling it wrong, but think I read that one of the conflicting eyewitness accounts said that Martin attacked trying to get zimmerman's gun. He would have to be aware of the gun in order to "go for it".

It would be very hard to prove assault in this case because one of the parties is deceased. In Florida there are 3 elements to assault and all three MUST be present:

1. Intentional, unlawful threat, by word or act, to do violence to another

2. Coupled with an apparent ability to do so

3. Must create a well founded fear in the person that violence is imminent

Trayvon cannot testify that he saw the gun and was scared. The defense CAN show (thru the responding officer's report) that Zimmerman showed evidence that he had been attacked. Now I ask you- would a scared person attack someone that had a gun or would they run away?

Thanks EB

Those seem good points. I'm ignorant of law and am not any way street smart, but finally got street smart enough to avoid dust-ups past about 1972, even working over 25 additional years full time playing music in bars and honky tonks where I witnessed many dust-ups. Must have learned a little about the cues to have stayed so lucky for 40 years, but then again it might be purely a case of dumb luck.

Dunno how it is nowadays on the street and am not eager to learn. In the early 1970's worked a few years with drug addicts, some of whom were "middle-class otherwise law-abiding" and some of whom were felon drug addicts. Also did some work with juvenile delinquents. Behavior on the street among those folks-- If somebody was planning to mess you up, they wouldn't huff and puff and brag that they were gonna kick yer butt like in the school yard. They would be cool and calm, either flat affect or smiling and friendly, and then out of nowhere go for you. Observing no rule of "a fair fight".

When I was out playing music and it looked like I might have trouble from an intoxicated country boy, I could usually get cues well in advance of the way things might go. If a drunk redneck wanted to kick yer butt he would either try to invent something to get insulted about, or begin insulting, or threatening. Working up to trouble. But with urban underworld characters you just can't reliably know. Or at least I never got good enough to reliably read whatever subtle signs that may be present. Biker dudes can be about as hard to read as urban criminals.

Though I'd rather not have to deal with criminals and crazy people, there are techniques of observing cues and of using non-threatening speech and body language which can minimize the risk. If you are dealing with a person "on the edge" then there are minor cues you can throw off which can influence whether the encounter turns out ok or goes downhill.

Maybe zimmerman grew up in a culture where if somebody was gonna kick yer butt then they would tell you about it first. Or not. Maybe Martin grew up in a culture as I described above, where any signs of impending threat can be subtle to nonexistent. If a person happened to be sensitized to very subtle cues of impending trouble-- Then if such person is tailed by a creepy stranger-- Getting obviously tailed would not be a subtle cue at all and could be interpreted as an "off the chart" obvious threat. He might escalate to defcon 5 right away.

Pure speculation. Just thinking out loud.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[DaveTN]

Yes, all this was going on. I had always assumed that an indictment was imminent.

A Grand Jury indictment is just a rubber stamp for the DA.

Only one side gets to be heard in a Grand Jury hearing, so they are generally going to follow the path the person telling the story leads them down. Apparently the DA did not want to prosecute this case. He may have since changed his mind, who knows. But a Grand Jury indictment means absolutely nothing to me except that a trial is going to be held.

[mikegideon]

Hi Mike

Was purely speculating and labeled it as such (rather than fact). Perhaps am recalling it wrong, but think I read that one of the conflicting eyewitness accounts said that Martin attacked trying to get zimmerman's gun. He would have to be aware of the gun in order to "go for it".

So much of this thing involves seperating the physical encounter from the rest. A lot of the stuff you hear from the hoodie wearing bunch focuses on how Martin reacted to "a man with a gun". I figure it was pretty easy to find after he jumped on his head. Point is... it's unlikely he knew it was there before things got physical, so it couldn't have been his reason for getting physical.

[mikegideon]

A Grand Jury indictment is just a rubber stamp for the DA.

Only one side gets to be heard in a Grand Jury hearing, so they are generally going to follow the path the person telling the story leads them down. Apparently the DA did not want to prosecute this case. He may have since changed his mind, who knows. But a Grand Jury indictment means absolutely nothing to me except that a trial is going to be held.

Maybe he didn't want to prosecute because the evidence didn't support a win. Now he has an excuse to prosecute even if he's gonna lose. May even get some personal satisfaction. After all, half the bedwetters in the US demanded it.

[QuietDan]

The Daily Caller has an image of all of Mr Trayvon Martin's "Tweets" from his Twitter account prior to his untimely demise:

http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1qGztV3LT

Some of it's pretty foul . . .

Edited March 27, 2012 by QuietDan

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Maybe he didn't want to prosecute because the evidence didn't support a win. Now he has an excuse to prosecute even if he's gonna lose. May even get some personal satisfaction. After all, half the bedwetters in the US demanded it.

Was my initial guess back on page 1. Prosecutors seem to prefer a good win-ratio. Even neglecting ego or ambition issues, it would waste the gov's money prosecuting too many un-winnable cases.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The Daily Caller has an image of all of Mr Trayvon Martin's "Tweets" from his Twitter account prior to his untimely demise:

http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1qGztV3LT

Some of it's pretty foul . . .

Yeh, he was a saint. All the slurring the media does to Zimmerman must be fair game. I'd say Martin's Tweets

are fair game, also.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It

Yes, all this was going on. I had always assumed that an indictment was imminent.

That must mean the DA either thought it truly was self defense, or that it wasn't enough to take

to a Grand Jury.

Well, there is an indictment, now that you mention it. The New Black Panther Party placed a bounty on

Zimmerman's head. Eric Holder hasn't done anything about it. I'd say that's an indictment on something,

wouldn't you? It's an indictment on our current judicial system, due to the current occupiers of the Dept.

of Justice and smacks hard on the idea of anyone getting anything more than "Social Justice". He has

a history of siding with that bunch of thugs. I'm astounded many on here don't think much of this. It

tells me that this "thug administration" is more racist than "White Privilege". I thought some things were

obvious.

It's payback time for all of someone's ancestors misdeeds! Too damned political and if it doesn't come to

a halt soon, it could cause dangerous things to happen.

[mikegideon]

It

That must mean the DA either thought it truly was self defense, or that it wasn't enough to take

to a Grand Jury.

Well, there is an indictment, now that you mention it. The New Black Panther Party placed a bounty on

Zimmerman's head. Eric Holder hasn't done anything about it. I'd say that's an indictment on something,

wouldn't you? It's an indictment on our current judicial system, due to the current occupiers of the Dept.

of Justice and smacks hard on the idea of anyone getting anything more than "Social Justice". He has

a history of siding with that bunch of thugs. I'm astounded many on here don't think much of this. It

tells me that this "thug administration" is more racist than "White Privilege". I thought some things were

obvious.

It's payback time for all of someone's ancestors misdeeds! Too damned political and if it doesn't come to

a halt soon, it could cause dangerous things to happen.

Yep. Just need to vote 'em out.

[raydog1]

Takes the whole "I'd rather be judged by12 than carried by 6" concept to another level.

You may be judged by 600,000,000 and carried by 6 after the bounty is collected.

I think this is on a Rodney King-sized collision course with something very bad.