Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[QuietDan]

Saw this and like it, and am sharing it:

[Guest Gwith40]

Too bad there aren't a few network and newspaper names on those vultures....I guess that would be too specific though. It does illustrate the situation pretty well.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Lester,

Great comment on your observation of the neighborhood. There is a trend in S. Florida of taking older apartment complexes, remodeling them and selling the units as "condos". In fact this is what happened to the apartment complex in Sunrise (Ft. Lauderdale) we lived in while I was working out of the Miami Field Office. The complex was small enough that we knew when a strange vehicle or person was on property. The property was gated and had a privacy fence around all but the canal side.

Lester, to answer about the "gated" community aspect of this case, it was a misleading representation from the press which I interpret was to stoke the racial aspect of this; "Man shoots black youth in gated community."

Maybe not everyone would make that leap, but many would. I used to live in Sanford about a half mile down the road from this place in another "gated community." Just like this one, it was just a complex with key card access. I was far from well-to-do at that point in my life.

The location of Twin Lakes is right next to a major mall and the interstate that goes east/west through central Florida. Due to the high speed avenue of egress and the existence of the mall it makes it an attractive area for low level criminal activity. It's almost a requirement for keeping those complexes gated in that area to keep the riff raff out, but it doesn't make it fancy as the media presents it to be... Understandably there are certain connotations that come with the term "gated community" and I believe the media has used that to their advantage.

Thanks EB-SF and TMF 18B for the explanations.

That situation is so beyond my experience base that I probably can't judge how "normal" Z's behavior may have been in the situation. It would be rather abnormal behavior in my neighborhood and am fairly certain some folks in my neighborhood would take exception to a feller doing a persistent pattern like that.

Based on some of the posts in this thread I'm thinking there are many who thinks there is something wrong with neighborhood watch or even just watching your own neighborhood at all...I suspect that pretty soon; even making eye contact with someone you don't recognize and wondering what he/she is doing will be considered an assault.

Maybe the "rules" would be different in a "gated community" or a subdivision with only one or two entrances but my neighborhood is just a slightly-redneck, slightly-mixed-race dinky older-construction middle class town surrounded on all sides by a big town via annexation. Maybe its my imagination, but the local popo seems to know who lives here, though I don't know any of the popo by name. Aint good with names.

I usually try real hard not to break speed limits, but ain't infallible and never got a ticket. So maybe the popo knows I live here and they cut me some slack. Folks not from here that drive thru, tend to get speeding tickets, enough that the place has a bit of "reputation" and many people will find another way to go somewhere rather than drive thru here. Some people complain its bad for biz to have such a rep, but it doesn't bother me much.

Maybe if we get inundated with gang-bangers we will pay closer attention, but knock on wood its been awhile since any cars got broke into or whatever. Maybe if the world ends me & neighbors will put road blocks on both ends of the street and other stuff from end-of-the-world TV shows and movies.

But unless things get real weird, I just can't comprehend the concept of neighbors screwing with people walking a public road, as long as thats all a stranger is doing, walking or driving a public road. When I was reading about various citizens arrest, civil rights, harrassment and stalking laws-- The law doesn't say much about single incidents of "minor" creepy behavior, but the law says a lot about patterns of creepy behavior.

I mean, if folks on my street would stalk and question strangers on a public thoroughfare, then if I take a walk and go down the next street then it is just as logical that vigilant watchers on that street will be stalking me and asking me what the hell I think I'm doing with the gall to walk down their street without prior permission. Not only would it be uncivilized, and demeaning to all concerned, but am pretty certain it would be illegal. That would be like ordinary law-abiding citizens forming gangs and having turf wars. That is what what happens in urban gang streets-- If you accidentally walk one block too far the wrong direction, then a bunch of dudes wearing a different color shirt ask what the hell are you doing on our street?

It is different if people walk off the street and onto property (without being invited). Everybody has different attitudes of course but some folk in my neighborhood get touchy on that issue. We have this rescue coonhound that was neglected as a pup and he is half-crazy. If he ever gets out he is fast as the wind and you don't catch him until he feels like getting caught.

Couple years ago, noon thanksgiving day, getting ready to go visit dad and eat roasted dead bird. Bandit slipped out the front door and was gone like a flash up the street. So I followed along calling to him while he ran in random directions like a lunatic. So he finally dashed thru a yard and disappeared in the woods behind a house.

So I walked between the two houses and was yelling to my dawg out in the woods somewhere. A neighbor I hadn't met, young clean cut 20 something came out real suspicious of my presence in his yard. I'm a decrepit old man in jeans and T-shirt, but to him I look suspicious under the noonday sun on thanksgiving, because I'm in his yard.

So he has this beautiful wiemaraner in his back pen and I explain to him my crazy hound has run away behind his house. He seems none too pleased with the situation but helps me lure and catch the crazy hound and then I get the hell out of his yard. Ain't saying anything bad about the neighbor. He seemed a good sort and if I had time might go up and yak at him. Just sayin if the feller took such exception to an aged white man at high noon in his yard, extrapolate to what he would be like if unknown strangers would be in his yard at midnight.

This dude is vigilant, but he is "under control" vigilant. He never comes out of his house asking people walking on the street, "What the hell are you doing on my street?"

[KahrMan]

Has it been reported what the distance was between Z and T when Z shot T was?

[RobertNashville]

Has it been reported what the distance was between Z and T when Z shot T was?

If it has I either missed it or don't remember.

I suppose I always assumed it was fairly close; if only because that's usually the case.

[daddyo]

I got the impression it was pretty much at point blank range.

[QuietDan]

Has it been reported what the distance was between Z and T when Z shot T was?

This is pure speculation on my part.

Given the other reports in the media (which we cannot trust) and reading between the lines of these faulty reports, I'm thinking we're going to find that it was a contact wound, with powder residue on both individuals. I'm thinking that Zimmerman shot Martin in a struggle for the gun, with Martin on top. Forensic reports will tell the story. It won't be CSI with scrolling screens and computer enhancement and video reconstruction, perhaps, but the forensic reports will tell the story.

Media reports, even biased media reports, say that Martin came up on Zimmerman from behind, they exchanged words, Zimmerman reached for and pulled out his cell phone, and was decked by Martin. No reports I have read, even the biased ones, say that Zimmerman pulled out his gun at this time, they say that he pulled out his cell phone.

The reports I have read say that with Martin on top, pounding him, Zimmerman called out for help. All reports I have read say that the gun did not come into play until after it, in an inside the waistband holster, was exposed during the beating administered by Martin upon Zimmerman.

Therefore, it is quite possible that the gun did not come into play until after it was exposed, that Martin attempted to control it, and that Zimmerman in a struggle for the gun shot Martin.

All reports suggest that Zimmerman did not lead with his gun, that it was used as a last resort after he was already down, being beaten, with his head pounded on the concrete, with an aggressor struggling for his holstered gun.

Other folks can create a different scenario, and the scenario will be refined as more facts become known, but I believe this basic scenario will stand up to scrutiny.

I am not saying this is WHAT happened. I am saying it is very reasonable that this is what MIGHT have happened.

I read reports, multiple reports, conflicting reports, emotional reports, logical reports, for a living. This is what I . . . think . . . happened.

I am still waiting for possible grand jury action, True Bill or No Bill, an indictment if it comes, and a trial if it comes, in which all the True Facts will become known.

[RobertNashville]

This is pure speculation on my part....

It's certainly a reasonable analysis...unfortunately it's probably going to be a long time before we are afforded an opportunity to see real facts rather than "facts" that come though filtered sources who put their own spin on it.

[RobertNashville]

This is interesting, even NBC has decided that perhaps, just perhaps, it hasn't been completely fair and accurate in its reporting of this case!

NBC to probe its handling of a Trayvon Martin news report

[Guest Gwith40]

It is my belief that the burglaries in the area could be considered a root cause of this whole situation. Why did this community have a neighborhood watch in the first place?

If you have ever had your home burglarized, you quickly learn that it is not a huge priority for the police department. I learned this last year. You almost have to hit the police over the head with evidence, to get them to do anything. In my case, I had/have a good suspect and still nothing was done...long story.

Back to the Zimmerman case. I suspect and I have observed that policing is pretty similar wherever you happen to be, in the United States. Given all the burglaries that occured in Zimmerman's neighborhood, I would bet most of them were unsolved, and he was tired of it. This may have led to his zealousness, as far as trying to catch the person he saw in the neighborhood, as he didnt recognize him.

However, if you listen closely to the tape, I don't believe Z chased M after the dispatch advised not to.

[RobertNashville]

I am part of my Neighborhood Watch although I am not a "watch captain", self-proclaimed or otherwise. We started about a year and a half ago because we noticed a significant increase in burglaries in our neighborhood.

We don't have "roving patrols" or anyone even doing that on their own; we simply try to look out for each other and try to notice things that "don't look right".

Yeah...you are right, unless someone is actually hurt, police don't seem to be all that interested...the good news is that since we've started watching, the number of burglaries and vandalism has gone done over the past year.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

NBC butchered the 911 call. They deliberately omitted the 911 operator asking him what race the person was.

Shameful as Hell.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It is my belief that the burglaries in the area could be considered a root cause of this whole situation. Why did this community have a neighborhood watch in the first place?

If you have ever had your home burglarized, you quickly learn that it is not a huge priority for the police department. I learned this last year. You almost have to hit the police over the head with evidence, to get them to do anything. In my case, I had/have a good suspect and still nothing was done...long story.

Back to the Zimmerman case. I suspect and I have observed that policing is pretty similar wherever you happen to be, in the United States. Given all the burglaries that occured in Zimmerman's neighborhood, I would bet most of them were unsolved, and he was tired of it. This may have led to his zealousness, as far as trying to catch the person he saw in the neighborhood, as he didnt recognize him.

However, if you listen closely to the tape, I don't believe Z chased M after the dispatch advised not to.

That's the way I gathered it.

[mikegideon]

Yep. One of these days, I'm gonna go as far as to say that journalism is in the crapper.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It's been in the crapper for quite a while, Mike.

[mikegideon]

It's been in the crapper for quite a while, Mike.

Say it ain't so. I watched CNN ruin it during the Gulf War. The credible reporting went away when the major networks went back to their normal schedules. Been hosed ever since.

Edited April 2, 2012 by mikegideon

[RobertNashville]

I am old enough to remember a time when the press, even though biased toward the left, actually tried to present the news and left most of their opinions for the editorial page and/or made it clear when there were editorializing rather than reporting.

Regardless of what some may think about commentators like Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levine and Glenn Beck; I believe that were it not for conservative talk radio we would already be nothing more than an European socialist state.

[mikegideon]

Those guys are always what they claim to be.

I have never liked news nerds, because most develop an attitude that their opinion actually matters. Used to play practical jokes on them, but I'm too old for that now.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I am part of my Neighborhood Watch although I am not a "watch captain", self-proclaimed or otherwise. We started about a year and a half ago because we noticed a significant increase in burglaries in our neighborhood.

We don't have "roving patrols" or anyone even doing that on their own; we simply try to look out for each other and try to notice things that "don't look right".

Yeah...you are right, unless someone is actually hurt, police don't seem to be all that interested...the good news is that since we've started watching, the number of burglaries and vandalism has gone done over the past year.

Do ya'll wear some kind of hat and/or armband like the Guardian Angels, to give visitors to your neighborhood (or newcomers to your neighborhood) at least a bit of hint what you are about? So they don't automatically add ya'll to the suspect person list if some circumstance found you standing in their yard after dark?

Edited April 2, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[bronco302]

Well ABC is back pedaling now, saw it this morning but was busy. http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=16055412

Joe W.

[Guest Gwith40]

I know it is very difficult to collect on suing a network but given the level of dishonesty by the media in this case, I have to wonder: If Zimmerman is not charged or is not convicted: What are his chances at winning a few lawsuits?

[RobertNashville]

Do ya'll wear some kind of hat and/or armband like the Guardian Angels, to give visitors to your neighborhood (or newcomers to your neighborhood) at least a bit of hint what you are about? So they don't automatically add ya'll to the suspect person list if some circumstance found you standing in their yard after dark?

No uniforms or hats (nor badges or nightsticks).

What we have done is gotten together for a few meetings and had some community events so that people have a chance to get to know each other.

Another effective thing we all try to do is that when we see someone driving by (especially someone we don't recognize) we try to make contact and wave/say "hello"...not only is it a friendly gesture but it also let's the person we see know that he/her has been seen (just in case that person wold rather not be seen if you know what I mean).

[TMF]

I know it is very difficult to collect on suing a network but given the level of dishonesty by the media in this case, I have to wonder: If Zimmerman is not charged or is not convicted: What are his chances at winning a few lawsuits?

I think he could get some pretty hefty settlements even if he is convicted. He should start with Nancy Grace. I've been taking great offense to her comments which indict the entire state of Florida and all it's occupants.

[CQB Elite]

Do ya'll wear some kind of hat and/or armband like the Guardian Angels, to give visitors to your neighborhood (or newcomers to your neighborhood) at least a bit of hint what you are about? So they don't automatically add ya'll to the suspect person list if some circumstance found you standing in their yard after dark?

I'm the self appointed Admiral of my neighborhood watch. I have a uniform that sort of looks like the one that Napoleon Bonaparte wore. I stand on my deck and scan the horizon for pirates and others who wish to do me harm. I don't actually pursue them, I simply call in the Marines....

[mikegideon]

I HATE Nancy Grace.