Don't think this is how the "stand your ground law" works

[RobertNashville]

So glad to see you taking your own advice and not saying the same thing over and over again....

Hey man, go out and shoot sumthin' and relax!!!

Unfortunately, this isn't a Sunday afternoon nor is it all that beautiful at the moment (rain is expected last I hear) and since I'm working, rather then living off your tax dollars, I don't have to luxury of just going out to a range.

[RobertNashville]

Okay, then ignore it.

Already am.

However, I'd still like you to point out any posts I've made where I've stated a conclusion about Zimmerman's or Martin's culpability in this incident...that is, of course, unless you are agreeing that I haven't stated any conclusions about either man.

If I've made any such posts or my language wasn't clear then I need to correct them because if anyone thinks I've made up my mind about either man then either they don't understand or I've done a poor job of communicating (or both).

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I've made up my mind, based on Gideon's post a long while back, that this is a lynch mob

and nothing else will suffice to some.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Lester, great questionnaire! I'd like to answer two of the questions by offering this- first, I don't think M would have stuck around and waited for the police to show up. Second, if he did and he attacked the officer then they couldn't just shoot him. They have to follow the Use of Force Matrix. The Matrix goes from "officer presence" (which is considered a use of force) to verbal commands to open/empty hand techniques to impact weapon and then on to deadly force. You meet force (resistance) with the appropriate response. LEO are trained to and held to that standard. Private citizens are not.

Thanks for the good info, EB-SF. Am ignorant of law enforcement methods but figured it must be something along that order. I would never have been suited to be law enforcement and have no ambitions to take up the practice "as a hobby".

My guesses on the questionaire (which have no higher priority than anyone else's guesses)-- I don't think it very likely M would have jumped the police. Because it is vanishingly rare that the police have to kill an unarmed suspect in the process of arrest, statistically I think it highly improbable that M would have been shot even if he had jumped the police. And therefore I think it statistically vanishingly unlikely that M would have died that night if Z had stayed in his truck and waited for the calvary to arrive.

Some folks around here got their use of force curriculum in a strange school. Asking someone what their business is in your neighborhood is grounds to get beaten, but responding to a beating with a firearm is a no-no.

Hi Mark@Sea. I'm not trying to make you or anyone else mad. Just discussing it.

The only training I received in "use of force", other than the carry course, was long ago working at a psychiatric hospital and a brief stint working an adolescent halfway house facility. In those jobs, if a client ended up injured, much less dead, then there would be hell to pay. The rules of engagement were elegantly simple-- If a client is out of control and must be handled, you don't try it until you have superior manpower. If you try to do it alone then one or both of you will most likely get hurt. Once you have enough help for everybody to grab an arm or leg, the odds are good to handle the person with minimal damage to the client or yourself.

That is only reliably possible in a controlled situation. In the real world, if somebody attacks me then I will hurt them in defense if that is what it takes. With no regrets. Or at my advanced age at least give it my best shot. But the real world is not an entirely uncontrolled situation. There is SOME control available. I can influence events according to how I behave. If help is already on the way then it just seems the height of foolishness to get anywhere close to a suspicious character as long as he ain't getting in my face and he's not an immediate threat to someone else.

Sometimes events are unavoidable. Z's situation seemed entirely avoidable from what I know, which may or may not be erroneous information.

According to the reports, Zimmerman was on the phone with the 911 operators and lost sight of Martin. Zimmerman was going to get back in his car, then Martin jumped him from behind and punched him in the face. Zimmerman was then thrown on the ground.

Thanks JPR1959. Yes, that is what I've read as well. Maybe my sequence of events is wrong, but was my understanding that at one point Z was in his truck, and M went running because M noticed Z following him. Just sayin, if I was in the truck I woulda stayed in the truck and observed from afar and let the police sort it out. If I would have called the police over a kid walking up the street at all. The higher the suspicion of M being dangerous, the MORE motivated I'd be to stay well away from him and avoid contact.

And if Z had followed that strategy, the police wouldn't likely have even encountered M because he would most likely have made it home and gone inside and watch some TV or whatever.

Maybe I'm just talkin crazy, the idea of staying away from somebody that might kick yer butt. No man worthy of his testosterone could let sleeping dogs lie in such a fashion.

[DaveTN]

Whether you were in any way justified or not for shooting; your life is effectively down that toilet and you aren't even 30 years old yet.

He got to live more years than his victim. He snuffed his life out at the age of 17 instead of taking an azz whipping. I bet right now he’s wishing he hadn’t had a gun on him. Everyone would more than likely be alive and he wouldn’t have a bounty on his head.

[RobertNashville]

He got to live more years than his victim. He snuffed his life out at the age of 17 instead of taking an azz whipping. I bet right now he’s wishing he hadn’t had a gun on him. Everyone would more than likely be alive and he wouldn’t have a bounty on his head.

Zimmerman's "victim" may well have been the aggressor.

Zimmerman's "victim" may well have been intent on a lot more than an "azz whipping" as you so colorfully put it.

Zimmerman may well have been 100% justified to do exactly what he did and is alive today only because he did it.

Of course, if one has already made up his mind about who was the victim and that it was only an "azz whipping" then none of the above matters.

It must be comforting to be so damn certain of something that you weren't there to observe.

Edited March 30, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Mark@Sea]

Just read an update. Zimmerman (elected as neighborhood watch captain) lost sight of Martin because Martin was walking quite slowly on a pathway between the town houses instead of on the well lighted sidewalks in front of the houses. Martin apparently hides in some bushes. Zimmerman gets out of his SUV to look for Martin, fails to find him, and is returning to his SUV when Martin comes up behind him.

Martins GF hears Martin ask Zimmerman "Why are you following me?". She hears Zimmerman ask "What are you doing around here?". The next sound is apparently Martin responding to the question by punching Zimmerman. Zimmerman falls partially onto the concrete sidewalk. Martin sits on him and starts banging his head into the concrete. Multiple witnesses now state that Martin initiated use of force and that Zimmerman was getting his head smashed in - and calling for help - before he shot.

Really looking for trouble to take a beating before you shoot a guy that assaults you, huh?

My training in use of force was somewhat different than others have posted here. Doesn't matter. Zimmerman isn't a cop - so he doesn't get the respect a cop would get.

[Mark@Sea]

"Victim" my hairy buttocks. Assailant is the proper term.

[daddyo]

[CQB Elite]

+1

[raydog1]

Spike Lee makes good:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/spike-lee-reaches-settlement-for-tweeting-wrong-address-for-george-zimmerman/2012/03/30/gIQAGB6QlS_blog.html

Zimmerman's bro says, "We're confident the medical records are going to explain all of George's medical history," Zimmerman Jr. said. "His nose looks swollen in that video. I'm his brother."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

[mikegideon]

OK. Now, who killed the damn horse, and was he black or white hispanic???

[Links2k]

OK. Now, who killed the damn horse, and was he black or white hispanic???

You'll have to check the FBI stats on that one, but I have a idea who did it.

[RobertNashville]

If we beat it enough will it become pink slime and if it does, can we then sell it to a packing plant for injection into horseburgers???

[daddyo]

If we beat it enough will it become pink slime and if it does, can we then sell it to a packing plant for injection into horseburgers???

I believe McDonald's beat you to it....

[QuietDan]

OK. Now, who killed the damn horse, and was he black or white hispanic???

Clearly, the horse is "brown." That makes it Hispanic. Though, it does have a couple of white spots on its flank.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

He got to live more years than his victim. He snuffed his life out at the age of 17 instead of taking an azz whipping. I bet right now he’s wishing he hadn’t had a gun on him. Everyone would more than likely be alive and he wouldn’t have a bounty on his head.

Snuffed it out. Okay. Very objective and astute observation.

[DaveTN]

Zimmerman's "victim" may well have been the aggressor.

Zimmerman's "victim" may well have been intent on a lot more than an "azz whipping" as you so colorfully put it.

Zimmerman may well have been 100% justified to do exactly what he did and is alive today only because he did it.

Of course, if one has already made up his mind about who was the victim and that it was only an "azz whipping" then none of the above matters.

It must be comforting to be so damn certain of something that you weren't there to observe.

Robert, the facts I’m basing my opinions on are not in dispute.

Treyvon Martin was walking down the street minding his own business, drinking tea and having some skittles; minutes later he was dead.

Some azzhat neighborhood watch guy decided he looked suspicious so he stalked him, got out of his truck and chased him, called him a “f*@#ing coonâ€, got in a fight with him (according to you) and shot him to death.

Treyvon Martin had no duty to retreat either. He had a right to “stand his ground†and fight his attacker. Unfortunately for Treyvon he brought a set of fists to a gun fight. This dirtbag couldn’t handle a 17 year old kid; he had no business out messing with people. And because he didn’t have the physical ability to take care of business he (and many others) feel that when he figured out he bit off more than he could chew; it’s okay to take out a gun and kill the kid. He’s wrong, and he’s going to find out just how wrong he is.

Maybe you can identify with this guy because he’s a gun owner; I can’t. You can put any spin on it that you want, but if what you claim happened; I hope he is convicted and sent to prison.

I don’t know, maybe I shouldn’t be so concerned with a trial. Even if this guy doesn’t go to trial, his life as he knows it is over. He’ll live in fear the rest of his life.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Every "fact" you noted is in dispute. That's the problem.

[CQB Elite]

Robert, the facts I’m basing my opinions on are not in dispute.

Treyvon Martin was walking down the street minding his own business, drinking tea and having some skittles; minutes later he was dead.

Some azzhat neighborhood watch guy decided he looked suspicious so he stalked him, got out of his truck and chased him, called him a “f*@#ing coonâ€, got in a fight with him (according to you) and shot him to death.

Treyvon Martin had no duty to retreat either. He had a right to “stand his ground†and fight his attacker. Unfortunately for Treyvon he brought a set of fists to a gun fight. This dirtbag couldn’t handle a 17 year old kid; he had no business out messing with people. And because he didn’t have the physical ability to take care of business he (and many others) feel that when he figured out he bit off more than he could chew; it’s okay to take out a gun and kill the kid. He’s wrong, and he’s going to find out just how wrong he is.

Maybe you can identify with this guy because he’s a gun owner; I can’t. You can put any spin on it that you want, but if what you claim happened; I hope he is convicted and sent to prison.

I don’t know, maybe I shouldn’t be so concerned with a trial. Even if this guy doesn’t go to trial, his life as he knows it is over. He’ll live in fear the rest of his life.

Wow.... "dirtbag"???.... Trayvon walking along, minding his own business???..... I'm pretty sure those are assumptions on your behalf and NOT even close to facts....

You are right about one thing- you shouldn't be concerned with a trial because you've already convicted Zimmerman and sentenced him to the death penalty ("He'll live in fear the rest of his life").

Edited March 30, 2012 by EB-SF

[Garufa]

This just keeps getting better and better.

Everyone please continue.

[Mike.357]

I know one thing for certain, I hope that Zimmerman's story is proven correct and he is cleared of any wrong doing.

If for no other reason than Dave has to admit he was wrong.

It would be a first.

[DaveTN]

Wow.... "dirtbag"???.... Trayvon walking along, minding his own business???..... I'm pretty sure those are assumptions on your behalf and NOT even close to facts....

You are right about one thing- you shouldn't be concerned with a trial because you've already convicted Zimmerman and sentenced him to the death penalty ("He'll live in fear the rest of his life").

My opinions about his guilt or innocence mean nothing. You are the one that said you are an expert on Florida law and that what he did was okay. Why did the investigating Police Officers ask for an arrest warrant; did they not know the law?

I didn’t sentence him to the death penalty; I’m not a “New Black Pantherâ€. I still want to know why the person that offered that reward hasn’t been charged… is that legal in Florida also?

This is all happening because the States Attorney’s Office failed to do their job and the citizens are not going to stand for it. Sure, now they have decided to take it to a Grand Jury, but I’m not sure any justice will come from that. Only one side of the story will be told there.

It may take the Feds steping in.

[Mike.357]

. Why did the investigating Police Officers ask for an arrest warrant; did they not know the law?

from your experience as a police officer you ought to know that "arrest first and let the DA sort it out" is often the solution officers in the field take.

i am not the least bit suprised by their request.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Mike.357

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, at the least, I finally got a -1 for a comment. I can only guess who

Edited March 31, 2012 by 6.8 AR